Evidence of meeting #12 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suicide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Can I suggest that if people have more they would like to submit, they can do it in writing.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
I definitely invite all members to do so.
Mr. Clark, you have five minutes.
Liberal
Braedon Clark Liberal Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr. Hurley, I know you talked in your opening statement and during the first round as well about the example in Australia and how you see that as a positive one that we could be learning from.
Later this week, at our next meeting on Thursday morning, we'll have a chance to hear from Jonathan Lane, the chief psychiatrist for the Australian equivalent of VAC, the Department of Veterans' Affairs in Australia.
If you were us and you could ask questions, what would you recommend that we ask Mr. Lane, and what do you think we can learn from him?
Veterans Mental Health Advocate, As an Individual
I would ask for a holistic picture: “What made you guys comfortable with this?” That's what it really comes down to, an education piece, because we've had such ingrained cultural stereotypes for 50 or 60 years about psychedelics. I would really ask, “How did you move this forward and win people over?”
As soon you say the word “psychedelic” it has a connotation to it, so it's a big conversation. Maybe it should be called a “neurotherapeutic” instead of a “psychedelic” just because it's, “Oh my god, it's so scary.” I would lead with “How does this work?” because Australia is way more conservative than Canada when it comes to psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, which caught the world stage off guard, the fact that the Department of Veterans' Affairs started funding it. Lead with why, how and what made people understand.
The data is there. There's so much data and research behind this stuff. Texas just passed $150 million into legislation for the study of ibogaine for opioid use disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder with veterans, but they led with opioid use disorder. Canada is asleep at the wheel right now when it comes to emerging therapeutics for everybody, not just for veterans.
Liberal
Braedon Clark Liberal Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS
Thank you. I appreciate that. That's very helpful for Thursday, as I said.
I'll ask each of you to just give us, in probably 30 seconds or so, your number one takeaway for us as committee members as we get close to starting to work on a report for this study. What would you say, if you could distill things down to the one thing, that we should take away from your testimony today and your experience in this field?
Mr. Wouters, I'll start with you, and then go down the line.
International Trauma Specialist and Consultant, Seven Edge Success Inc.
Number one is unresolved trauma. It's the absolute route to all illness and disease, including suicide. The other thing would be that psychiatry and psychology are leading this show, and neither of them are a science. Where's the credibility for those two professions to guide the trauma approach when they have no expertise in trauma, and they don't claim to have it? That's another major problem. They're leading it, and there's no reason for it because they don't have the expertise to do it.
I treat psychiatrists and psychologists. They confess to me that they're a fraud, that they're not solving the problem. I say, “Well, it's not really that you're totally responsible because the institutions are not teaching this.” They're not teaching it.
As an Individual
I have a few points.
The first point is that if you guys want to stop the suicides within the veterans community, start screening for mefloquine use. Mefloquine has been given to Canadian Forces members since 1992. It is actually what is driving our suicide epidemic, because it's creating situations like mine.
Veterans Affairs spent a quarter of a million dollars in 14 years on one-on-one counselling sessions for me. It did nothing. It wasn't until my doctor finally got frustrated and snuck me into a brain injury treatment program she was using for young Afghan vets that, within three months, I was starting to deal with my deployment to Rwanda.
Finally, Ernie finished it off and actually took me up to a veteran retreat by Prince Albert, where, for two three-hour sessions after that first one, he started to get going. After that second one—oh, my God—I have no problems with long-term trauma issues. When I get into a situation that triggers me, I don't get swamped with visual imagery anymore, so it does work.
Screen for mefloquine use.
Ernie—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
I was going to say that we're going to have to move on. I apologize.
I want everybody to speak, but thank you.
As an Individual
You need to treat us as individuals. We all join the military or the RCMP as a team, but we're individuals and it affects us differently. You have to let us try things that we think are going to make a difference, because if we think it's going to make a difference, it may make the difference.
Veteran, As an Individual
As Darren said, the biggest thing right now that we all need to do is work together to get this solved.
We have a Facebook page right now for the 2 PPCLI guys. Not many of them have reached 65, or even 60, whether they died of natural causes or unnatural causes.
We need to all work together to get this solved.
Veterans Mental Health Advocate, As an Individual
Yes, psychedelics are good. More importantly, there is a thing called “operator syndrome”. As Mr. Wouters was saying, we are just looking at things through the lens of post-traumatic stress disorder. There is subconcussive blast wave: Any time you fire a rifle that's larger than a regular assault rifle, you're going to have a subconcussive blast wave, which damages the brain. It's very different from CTE and from impact.
When you have brain injuries, it presents like post-traumatic stress disorder. If you have low testosterone, it presents as post-traumatic stress disorder. If you have substance use disorder, it presents as post-traumatic stress disorder.
We are broad-brush painting post-traumatic stress disorder from a position where we're not even looking at the whole body. We're not even looking at what's happening. We really need to open our eyes and start looking at understanding how the body keeps the score.
As an Individual
I was the victim of a war crime, but it is not considered to be a war crime, because it was committed by my brothers in arms, people who were supposed to help me and protect me.
Women are there to entertain us—nothing more, nothing less.
I am the victim of a war crime that will never be recognized, because it happened on military bases in Canada. In Gagetown, in Farnham, in Moose Jaw, at the Royal Military College of Canada, in Valcartier and in Petawawa; those are just a few of the military bases I went to.
I dream of changing the world, one hour at a time and one soul at a time. I dream of feeding the land to care for our souls.
Protégeons nos foyers et nos droits.
I stand on guard for thee. Let's stand on guard for thee together.
Think about investing in the souls of your brothers and sisters. There are babies dying in bus shelters because it's too cold and because the mother has been forgotten by the system. Stop blaming her and get her help. You won't be giving a handout. Nothing is free. Invest in human health and the human soul.
I have removed all the bureaucratic red tape. You are being offered a handkerchief to help you.
Imagine all the people.
With your signature. Let's create a viral movement.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you, Ms. Duhaime.
Mr. Hurley, Mr. McKay, Mr. Simons, Mr. Bona and Mr. Wouters, thank you for your courage. Thank you for coming today.
Thank you for your service, all of you, to our great country. This will stop this portion.
I do have a few administrative items—a minute of your time, members—that I have to go through for a budget. I apologize to all of you. I do need to just get some consensus from my colleagues.
Two budget proposals were recently distributed by the clerk. One is for the study of barriers to entrepreneurship among veterans and one is for the meeting on October 21, 2025, that the Minister of Veterans Affairsattended.
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt these proposed budgets?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Perfect.
The next meeting will take place on Thursday, November 20, 2025. We will be resuming our study on suicide prevention among veterans.
Does the Committee wish to adjourn the meeting?