Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 25th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I call this meeting to order.

I'll invite everybody to have a seat, please.

Welcome to meeting number 14 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on September 18, 2025, the committee is resuming its study on suicide prevention among veterans.

Before we welcome our witnesses, for people who are viewing, I would like to provide a trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to suicide and grief. This may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences. If you feel distress or need help, please advise our clerk. For all witnesses and members of Parliament, it is important to recognize that these are difficult discussions.

Also for our witnesses, if you do not feel comfortable at any point, please let us know. We can pause our committee for you.

Pursuant to the Standing Orders, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members can participate in person or via the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask that all in-person participants consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules for witnesses and members to follow.

Before speaking, please wait for me to recognize you by name. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to turn on your microphone, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

Finally, this is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would like to welcome our witnesses.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Chair, I have a point of order.

Before you introduce the witnesses, I noticed that we had a change from two hours to one hour for the meeting. I'm not sure I would have agreed, although I do understand the circumstance that a few witnesses dropped out.

Having said that, I wonder if I could ask committee members—and you, obviously—if we could at least modify that slightly to make sure that everyone on the committee has a chance to ask a question. That would require four rounds or whatever it is. It's just so that everyone has that opportunity before we shut the meeting off. Rather than being hard and fast about an hour, we can give everybody an opportunity. It might take us slightly more than an hour.

I hope that's agreeable to everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I am at the will of the committee, but I hear what you're saying. How about we start this committee, see how our witnesses and everybody else in the room feel, and take it from there?

Is that okay, Mr. Richards? Okay.

I will now introduce our witnesses.

Welcome.

I would like to welcome Monsieur Michel Marceau and Ms. Amanda Anderson. Thank you for being with us.

We will start by inviting each of you to deliver your opening remarks for a period of about five minutes. Once you have finished, we will have the rest of the meeting as discussed. We will be inviting our members of Parliament to ask you questions.

Madam Anderson, I will give you the floor first.

[Amanda Anderson, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair and committee, for this invitation.

My name is Amanda Anderson. In 2007, my husband, Corporal Jordan Anderson, was killed in Afghanistan, along with five other soldiers and an Afghan interpreter, by an improvised explosive device. Though the care I received from his unit, 3 PPCLI, in the aftermath of his death was excellent, I have borne witness to many gaps in the system.

Since 2009, I have been quietly helping CAF and veteran widows through the death admin and VAC processes. I'm the admin of a Facebook group that is exclusive to my survivor community. For this work, in 2024, I was awarded the VAC ombudsman commendation, and I was asked to sit on the VAC advisory board on families. For both, I believe I was the first survivor to be honoured.

Why am I here at this hearing on suicide prevention when my husband was killed in Afghanistan? It's because I talk to and message CAF and veteran widows one-on-one almost every day.

My testimony is not mine. It is the experience of the survivors I've talked to for over 16 years. These are the phone calls, the meetings and the My VAC messages. I'm here to discuss what happens to veteran families when, despite everything, suicide prevention efforts fail.

The grief and trauma are overwhelming. You have heard this from many family members and spouses who have shared their first-hand experiences with this loss. I will say this. The mental anguish that leads to suicide is not only suffered by the member and veteran; it is shared by the family. After the death, the family is left to carry that pain for a lifetime.

In order to move forward, families need access to consistent and appropriate mental health support for grief and trauma. In my role as an advocate, I often help families find that support. This is where we hit a wall at VAC.

The current VAC policy on mental health hinges on the active participation of the veteran. It requires the veteran to participate in therapy and advocate for their family members to receive mental health treatment. It requires the veteran's therapist to write a letter saying that it would benefit the veteran's mental health if they received treatment.

What happens when the veteran can't participate in therapy because they're dead? Survivors, instead, get the VAC assistance service. It's a short-term service, similar to an employee assistance program, and then we're off-loaded to the provincial health care system.

With the VAC assistance program, you're not guaranteed a registered psychologist, nor an expert in grief or trauma. Some survivors manage to get a bit of help—usually 20 hours—under the VAC assistance service before giving up on trying to navigate the various requirements, including requalifying for funding after every 20 hours and having a therapist redo the paperwork for another reason—as if traumatic grief is not enough of a reason to need ongoing therapy.

A handful of CAF survivors have managed to qualify for the rehabilitation program and get help to meet their rehabilitation goals. This is not therapy for traumatic grief and loss, and this program is not open to RCMP survivors. The majority report that they get nothing. They get no mental health care—not even for deaths VAC deems service-related. They don't even get the limited assistance service, which is supposed to be offered to every VAC client for any reason. Many tried calling several times asking for help and received nothing.

If this sounds confusing, inconsistent and patchwork, that's because it is.

VAC has confirmed in writing that we are only eligible for the VAC assistance service for short-term care, and then we're to get care from the provincial health care system. I'll point out here that we cannot get regular grief therapy counselling from the provincial system because it's not a funded service, so VAC is telling us to get care from the public system, where we cannot get it. Families are left to pay out of pocket if they are not lucky enough to have private insurance.

Why do survivors, whose loved ones were sacrificed in service to Canada, receive the least mental health care from the organization designed to help veterans and their families?

In 2021, the VAC ombud recommended that families, including survivors, receive mental health care treatment benefits in their own right for service-related conditions, independent of the veteran. In 2024, VAC agreed that families should receive mental health care; however, it said the issue was the legislation.

An RCMP spouse, Samara, who testified here a few weeks ago, launched a petition to have the government change the legislation after her friend Jessica lost her mental health care after the suicide death of her spouse. Jessica also testified here. We built a Facebook group to support the petition, which currently has 2,100 members.

Survivors and their families are sharing their heartbreaking stories, and some of the posts are getting 30,000 to 60,000 views. We are receiving very strong support from the CAF and RCMP veteran community, and we are urging everyone to contact their member of Parliament.

The Legion is advocating for family members to receive mental health care in our own right. The Atlas Institute, which also testified here, recently stated that military service has changed and called upon services for families to evolve. Atlas specifically stated that Canada has a duty of care to veterans and their families.

In the Senate, Senators Klyne and Kutcher recently asked the VAC minister about survivors' treatment at VAC. Senator Kutcher stated, “the spouses and family members of veterans need to be treated as people with their own inherent and constitutionally protected rights, not as dependents of the veteran.”

VAC again reaffirmed their commitment that we should receive mental health care in our own right for service-related conditions this past September. The ombud said this:

I have heard many heartbreaking stories about Veteran families struggling with their own mental health needs as a result of being part of a military—or RCMP—family. And I must credit VAC for doing their best within the legislative guidelines to provide some mental health supports to family members. However, access is, for the most part, completely dependent on the Veteran's engagement in treatment, and there are many instances where that is impossible or challenging. The stories I have heard are deeply compelling and I cannot encourage the Minister and the Department more strongly to do what is necessary to implement the recommendations in our January 2021 report.

Elsewhere in the same testimony, after the ombudsman described the current situation for survivors' mental health care at VAC, it struck me that MP Gaudreau asked whether this is what we want on our conscience.

VAC is supposed to cover for service-related injuries. The ultimate service-related injury is death. Remembrance is not only about poppies, monuments and November 11; it's about how a country chooses to care and support the grieving family members left behind.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Ms. Anderson. Thank you for coming today; we appreciate it.

Mr. Marceau, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michel Marceau, As an Individual]

Good afternoon everyone.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for having me.

Long live the King!

My name is Michel Marceau. I'm a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces. I served in Afghanistan as a member of Task Force 1-09.

Here are my observations.

First is the red tape mentioned by journalist Patricia Rainville, who wrote a series of articles on the subject. She really hit the nail on the head, because that's exactly what's happening. We have to fight tooth and nail to get what we should be getting without even needing to ask.

I left the military 12 years ago. I don't even have a family doctor. All through the winter, the Veterans Affairs agent, who was very polite, kept telling me that I did have one. I called my family doctor 12 times over seven years only to be told each time to call back in a year. I ended up going to the private sector for $2,000 a year. I don't have a family doctor, which makes me wonder: why do newcomers to Canada who come in illegally have a family doctor whereas veterans like me and families like Mrs. Anderson's, who went through much worse things than I did, can't even get one?

I complained to the ombudsman in 2017, but nothing changed. I went on a hunger strike for 10 days last year, including 28 hours without drinking. I would do it again without thinking twice. I'm not here to make threats or to get on anybody's nerves—sorry, my hands are sweating like crazy because Mrs. Anderson's testimony deeply moved me.

Another aspect is that transitioning from military to civilian life takes way too long. In 2025, we're in the digital era—click here, press “Enter” and my file should be passed along.

Members of the military like myself swore allegiance to the King. My allegiance will never falter. If the King was in Quebec City tomorrow morning and somebody tried to shoot him, I'd take a bullet for him and die a glorious death. I'd die a happy man. I know it's not a normal thing to say, but that's what allegiance is. You can't explain it, it's just in you.

When we see people burning Canadian flags around the world, it makes people like me sick. The Taliban were given $180 million. It's not the first time, so I don't think I have to say more about that. Facebook removes all posts about veterans. I posted a very polite and respectful comment yesterday asking my veteran buddies for advice on what to say so that I don't speak only for myself. We're stigmatized by society.

Let me tell you my little personal horror story. There's nothing special about me, these kinds of things happen to lots of folk. Case in point, you have this committee with fine people like you showing empathy and taking the time to listen to veterans and using their professionalism to try to help us. I really appreciate it.

In 2010, I was diagnosed with PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. From July 2 to October 15, 2015, I was deeply addicted to antidepressants and completely lost my mind. I called the good old Clinique pour traumatismes liés au stress opérationnel—the TSO clinic—in Loretteville, and the bunch of Dr. Frankensteins who work there. For three and a half months, they didn't listen to my calls. I called Veterans Affairs 10 or 20 times.

Ironically, I'm still the same guy who served in the Canadian Armed Forces. I had security clearance and was 100% trustworthy. When I left the military, I went from hero to absolute zero. Not just me, but my buddies too. It's the same for everyone.

When you leave the Armed Forces, it's simple: take your pills, cash in your cheque and shut your yap. No one wants to hear about your experience in Afghanistan anymore. In fact, that experience has all but disappeared from the military. There's only a handful of brave souls who still possess it. Lobbies are pushing hard to make it go away.

Now, with the top-notch care I got from the TSO clinic and the complete negligence by Veterans Affairs Canada, which was abysmal in my case, why am I so frustrated and bitter? I had a reaction to antidepressants for the third time. It's clearly written in my file, spelled out in black and white. The drugs Cipralex, Cymbalta and Pristiq almost killed me. I went into psychiatric care four times and made two failed suicide attempts.

I have a son who lives on the street because I took some crap called Seroquel for six years. I was sleeping all day, so he became homeless.

I want to highlight the testimony from the Vietnam veteran, a Native American gentleman. I want to say the exact same thing he did as I wrap up. Without going so far as to say that I'm fully recovered, for a little over a year, I've felt a lot better. I did the exact opposite of what I was told. I live like a soldier. I have a backpack at the foot of my bed. I'm ready to go. I won't be going to Afghanistan and there won't be any bombs dropping in my backyard, but if my 78-year-old mother who lives in Normandin, in Lac-Saint-Jean, isn't feeling well, I can just grab my stuff and I'm ready to go with my boy.

Doctors don't understand what guys like me go through because they don't want to read On Combat. It's a book written by a psychologist and lieutenant colonel. He describes exactly what guys like Mrs. Anderson's husband, the Vietnam vet and I go through. It's 100% spot-on.

I feel better because I accepted my true nature. I need stress and danger. Going back to civilian life is like putting on the brakes all of a sudden. Everything's too slow. You get comfortable. You meet one gentleman here, and another there, and you have to talk about your emotions. You take a couple of pills at first, then you end up taking 12. One pill makes your legs shake, so you take another one to stop the shaking, and you take another one to be a good partner to your significant other, if you know what I mean. It's horrible.

I stopped taking pills. I'm not against pills per se, but I'm against the ones that do nothing or cause harm. I'm aware of my condition. I keep it under control. I'm a yoga master. I know I don't look the part, but I can do all the poses. Yoga, martial arts and spirituality is what got me through it, like the Vietnam vet.

In closing, I want to thank former MP Luc Desilets, who worked hard on my case, Ms. Gaudreau, who showed enough professionalism and empathy to continue that work, and journalist Patricia Rainville. I salute everyone here today and all the families of veterans who died in Afghanistan. Respect, and long live the King!

Sorry, I'm feeling a little faint.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

It's ok. Take your time, Mr. Marceau.

[Michel Marceau]

I'm fine now. It passed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

It's important for us. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your courage.

We will start our rounds of questions.

We will go to Mr. Tolmie for six minutes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming, sharing and giving us some information that is very enlightening to us.

I will be asking both of you questions throughout this six-minute period.

Ms. Anderson, I'd like to start with you, because you led off in the witness testimony.

One thing that has become clear to this committee—or to me—when we're sitting here asking questions is that there seems to be a blind spot. I've alluded to this numerous times. Veterans get out of the military and then there's—I don't know how to describe it—no interaction. VAC employees have to go to VAC to get services.

In your testimony, you mentioned spouses. I think spouses can witness the mental and emotional behaviour of their spouse who has served. The block is that they're not able to access VAC because they're not the serving member. Do you think that should change?

[Amanda Anderson]

Yes. The ombudsman recommended in 2021 that families receive mental health care in their own right independent of the veteran. The key there is “independent of the veteran”, because currently, for family members to receive mental health assistance, they basically need the veteran's permission and advocacy.

When the veteran is experiencing extreme PTSD or whatever issues they might be experiencing and the family notices, family members can't access care. That's why the ombudsman said that family members need to be able to access mental health care in their own right. It's so they won't need the veteran to advocate for them or basically give them permission; they can access it in their own right.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

We have a situation where someone who is witnessing a serving member deal with mental and emotional anguish could go to Veterans Affairs, but they can't. You said the restriction was because of legislation. Is that correct?

[Amanda Anderson]

Yes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

They're aware that this legislation needs to be changed, but no one has come forward to change the legislation. Is that what you hear?

[Amanda Anderson]

That is correct.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

What are your thoughts on that?

[Amanda Anderson]

The legislation needs to be changed to allow family members to receive independent mental health treatment benefits.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I agree with you.

[Amanda Anderson]

Can I add to that?

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes, you can add to that.

[Amanda Anderson]

I don't know if everybody caught it in my earlier testimony, but when care relies on the veteran and then that veteran passes away, people like me cannot access it. We're given the assistance service, which I've outlined is completely insufficient for somebody who's going through traumatic grief and trauma.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes, I agree with you. Thank you so much for your perspective. I'm sorry that you're dealing with the bureaucratic red tape to get legislation changed.

This brings me to Mr. Marceau.

You mentioned that you have no general practitioner. Is that because of a lack of doctors, or is it a combination of a lack of doctors and doctors being unwilling to deal with you as a veteran? Have you witnessed that?

[Michel Marceau]

That's a good question, Mr. Tolmie.

I understand what you said in English. I used to be bilingual, but I don't speak English on a regular basis anymore, so I'll answer in French.

Last year, I went on a hunger strike. I have promises right here with me, written by Deputy Minister Harris and obtained by Mr. Desilets, which were not kept. They keep passing the buck and saying that, in Quebec, they can't help me because yada yada yada. In the end, it's nothing but red tape.

I never signed up to be in Quebec's army. I'm a proud Quebecker, but I was in the Canadian army. I swore allegiance to the King. I don't know why they keep nagging me about that. How can I get a doctor? That's not my war. That's not my field of expertise. We should just have one, period.

I don't know if that answered your question or not.

Over the past seven years, I called every six months only to be told to call back in a month. I ended up going to the Lacroix medical clinics. I paid $1,120 for three visits. That was my experience.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I don't have much time, and I'd just like to thank you for your service.

[Michel Marceau]

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.