Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 4th, 2025

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to start with Mr. Hisey.

I expect that you're aware that counselling medical assistance in dying is not, has never been and never will be a practice or a policy of the Government of Canada.

You have indicated that you know of six people who have been offered medical assistance in dying. The Government of Canada wants to investigate that and make sure that, to the extent that these instances are substantiated, they are dealt with, because they are completely contrary to government policy. If there is anything you can do, sir, to urge the sources of this information to come forward to anyone on this committee, to the minister's office or to the ombud's office, please do. We want to know. We want to investigate it. We want to get to the bottom of it. If it is an indicator of a more systemic problem than what we know about, we want to deal with it.

[Todd Hisey]

I would be happy to, and other veterans would be happy to, such as the gentleman by the name of Mark Meincke, who's done some serious independent investigative journalism on this topic.

In fact, there's one veteran out there who's no longer allowed to talk about this, because he sued the government and has received compensation and signed an NDA.

I think there are members of your government and the public service who are well aware that this is happening, and you need to be talking to them. It's not necessarily a political party issue; this is a Public Service of Canada issue. Members of your public service, who are Canadians, are trying to push harm on other Canadians.

I'd be more than happy to co-operate with anybody on these investigations, but I'll tell you that Mr. Meincke is probably one of the most knowledgeable veterans in this country on this topic, and he has done a number of podcasts on it.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

Dr. Crawford, I want to pick up where Mr. Richards left off.

I really think your testimony with respect to the practices in the United States and the opportunity for collaboration is something we should pursue.

One of the things you identified in your opening statement was around training needs. I guess there are two parts to my question: What can we do in terms of the training needs, and what would be your advice to this committee in terms of learning from and adopting best practices from the United States experience?

[Allison Crawford]

Thank you.

There are two things.

In the U.S., because they collaborate with Veterans Affairs, when veterans dial 988 and extension 1, they get a specialized responder. Sometimes that may be peers. That may be people who've had training in what we call “cultural safety” or the ability to know the values, preferences and needs of unique populations—in this case, veterans. That integration allows this in the United States.

In Canada, anyone who calls or texts 988 can get any responder. The technology allows people to be routed as close to home as possible. The training we would need to provide in this case, unless we had a specialized service, is to just ensure that responders feel equipped to appreciate and understand the beliefs, values and needs of the person they're talking to. We know that this is possible because, again, we've done some work with public safety personnel and taken steps so that responders do their best to identify when someone is calling from one of those professions or backgrounds.

We provide training through 988 about what some of those needs and preferences might be, and some of the unique issues or themes that may come up in trying to provide compassionate responses and, really, ways to listen. I think that training is twofold: specialized for veterans and then general training for any responder who may interact with a veteran.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

We had some fascinating testimony from some experts in Australia earlier in this study. They provided a laundry list, basically, of upstream issues, if you will, before people get to 988. Can you offer some insight in your experience or the experience of those answering the phone, with respect to where the potential wins are in terms of upstream solutions?

[Allison Crawford]

Yes. It is true that 988 is a crisis service. Ideally, there needs to be a continuum of mental health resources and responses, not just waiting until someone is in a crisis, but we do know that if you are in a crisis and you contact a service like 988, that support can in fact be life-saving. My knowledge and focus are really on that crisis point, but we need a full range.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Mrs. Crawford, we will come back to you. We'll have another round.

For our witnesses, Madame Gaudreau will address you in French, and I would strongly encourage each of you to have your earpiece and to make sure you have a volume that is high enough so that Ms. Gaudreau is not in a position where she cannot have a conversation with you. Just make sure that it's at a certain level.

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I’d like to thank the witnesses for taking the time to be with us today.

Madam Chair, this is our last meeting before we can submit the report’s recommendations.

Mr. Grant, you asked what people have to do in order to receive services, is that correct?

[James Grant]

Yes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That isn’t my question, though. I wanted to make sure that you had asked that question, and now I’m going to answer you.

The answer is that you have to do what you’re doing right now, that is, be here, provide us with recommendations and information. This is the first step. The second step will be when we have the report, when we have compiled all the recommendations, and we send it to the appropriate people. The third step is to make sure that this report is not shelved. How are we going to do that?

You said earlier that 118,000 Canadians have died in service. What saddens me most is that you’re here because you’re crying out for help, but to get all the help you deserve, you have to make some noise and take action. There’s something positive because, to be heard, you need synergy, you need collegiality, and you’re brothers in arms. I’m sure that all my colleagues would agree, because it’s all important. It’s like we have an elephant and have to eat it one bite at a time.

It’s your turn, because you have been neglected for too long. Once we have all the information for the entire country regarding the Canadian Armed Forces community and the people in the RCMP, if you’re ready, we will go all the way and assert your rights so that there is no reason to cut the budget and limit your services.

I hear you, I see you, and I know that there are also veterans who have received excellent service. But every person who slips through the cracks of the system is one person too many, and that’s what we want to work on. I hope that answered your question a little bit.

Ms. Crawford, you talked about 2,600 interactions per day. I’m happy to hear that. My colleague also mentioned that it was listed on the website. Are people saying that they didn’t know they could reach out to 9881? Or is it systematic, and is the information getting out there?

[Allison Crawford]

That is a huge focus of 988 right now, and we have a communications plan. We work closely with the Public Health Agency of Canada, which has a communications team, and we have population-level ads that go to everybody via television and radio in your community.

We are increasingly doing more targeted ads. Another possibility is targeted ads for specific populations. For example, we know we need to attract more men to rely on a service and come forward for help. Another possibility may be more targeted advertising to say that 988 is relevant for veterans. The proviso to that is that we need to make sure that the service is specialized to meet those needs before we advertise it.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In closing, the main promotional activity is advertising this service at all legions across Canada. I’m sure you’re doing that, but for everyone listening to us, I hope no one is saying to themselves that they didn’t know this service existed.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

For five minutes, we have Mr. Tolmie.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Grant, in your opening statement, you mentioned that human rights violations were being committed by the Government of Canada, by VAC. In the opening round with Mr. Casey, he addressed Mr. Hisey about the veterans you're aware of who have been offered MAID.

In this committee, we have done studies, numerous times, where the term sanctuary trauma comes up. Mr. Casey urged you to bring forward the names of people who are suffering from sanctuary trauma. Do you believe that veterans who have been offered MAID would actually trust this government and would come forward to testify?

[Todd Hisey]

Some will and some won't, because a number of us have already been targeted specifically by Veterans Affairs. I'll use myself as an example.

A case manager once contacted me and gave me very disheartening news that they were going to claw back $180,000 in benefits from me. In discussing it with her, she actually told me that she was specifically told to target me on this fact. The emails between her and me were actually completely removed from my insecure inbox with Veterans Affairs.

This started basically a two-and-a-half-year struggle for me with Veterans Affairs around this whole $180,000. Then the most recent past minister prior to the election got involved, and she sided with me, to my benefit in this case.

That's the reason some of these veterans won't come forward. They know they're going to be targeted. There have been witnesses here who have said that they've been followed and that they've been surveilled. That happens.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

We have Veterans Affairs committing human rights violations. We have veterans being targeted and threatened with having their benefits taken away. Is my understanding clear?

[Todd Hisey]

That is correct.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Mr. Grant, I'd like for you to expand on that. Do you have any comments on that?

[James Grant]

My colleague here pretty much hit the nail on the head. I don't have a lot to say to expand on that, but in my experience and my opinion, with the new veterans charter creating two classes of veteran, that violates section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I don't disagree with you.

In your testimony, you talked about generational trauma. You talked about your children. Mr. Grant, you talked about being a single father, and I can identify with that.

Could you please explain to me what that looks like and how your children are dealing with that? How have you been able to cope with that? Have they come to you, or did you have to, over time, recognize it? You're dealing with your own mental health issues, so how have you been able to actually deal with your children?

I'd like to go to Dr. Whitman after this question. I have just a minute.

[Todd Hisey]

In my case, with my three children, as I was going through my six years of trauma treatment, we were able to identify that they had certain aspects of my own post-traumatic stress symptoms. They themselves each had about three of my six symptoms, and they were different among each of my three children.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Ms. Whitman, can I get a bit of testimony from you with regard to generational trauma and how you deal with it?

[Shelly Whitman]

I think the issue we're trying to raise is that there are no supports for children in these instances. There have been efforts focused on spouses but not on the children specifically. It's unfortunate that we didn't have more time, because my colleague here is a survivor of that and is specializing in that in her Ph.D. research right now.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thanks, Ms. Whitman.

Mr. Hisey, I just want to end off with this. You talked about your faith. Have you ever felt that you've been persecuted for your faith?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Yes or no, sir.