Evidence of meeting #19 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was entrepreneur.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Morrow  Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.
Ryan  Chief Operating Officer, Atlantic Association of Community Business Development Corporations

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 19 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Colleagues, before we begin, I would like to invite all of us to observe a moment of silence for gunner Sebastian Halmagean, who passed away a few days ago while on deployment in Latvia as part of Operation Reassurance. I'm sure all of you want me to share on your behalf that our thoughts go out to his family, his friends, the entire CAF community and veterans during this very difficult time.

On behalf of all of us here, we want to start with a moment of silence.

[A moment of silence observed]

Thank you.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on September 18, 2025, the committee is meeting further to its study on barriers to entrepreneurship among veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask that all in-person participants consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all our participants, including the interpreters.

Many thanks to all of you.

You will also notice the QR code on the card; it links to a short awareness video.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witness and our members. I know it's the first time our witness is here.

I would just say to everyone to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking, and those participating by video conference....

I don't think we have anyone today, Mr. Clerk, so we're not going to have that issue.

For those who need interpretation, it's right in front of you, as you know. It's always available. There are the floor, English and French interpretation channels.

Members in the room wishing to speak must raise their hands first. Please don't forget.

It's very important that you wait for me to recognize you.

With that, I would like to welcome our witness for the first hour. Unfortunately, our second witness had to withdraw from the panel due to an unexpected obligation. We'll make sure to reinvite the witness who was scheduled for today.

However, we are very happy to have, from Morrow Consulting and Training Inc., Mr. David Morrow, chief performance officer, who is joining us in person.

It's a pleasure to welcome you.

Mr. Morrow, you have five minutes to give your opening remarks. We will then proceed to a series of questions from the members of the committee.

Thank you.

David Morrow Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Dave Morrow. I'm a Canadian Armed Forces veteran, founder of Morrow Consulting and Training Inc. and creator of the Hard to Kill project at hardtokill.org. This includes an internationally awarded podcast, the Hard to Kill podcast, a bestselling book on Amazon, Harden the F*ck Up and an online “Veterans Getting Fit AF” community, which is the first to offer frontline medical coverage and plant medicine consulting through the A-Vet protocol and to receive Veterans Affairs Canada funding to improve the health and fitness of our female warriors with our world-class A.T.H.E.N.A. program.

I'm also the only Canadian veteran, as far as I know, who has co-organized an international entrepreneur conference at the largest military entrepreneurship conference in the world, the Military Influencer Conference. I've spent the last six years talking shop with some of the biggest American and Canadian veteran business leaders. I'll also slip in here that if it were not for the Hard to Kill podcast and my team, there wouldn't be nearly as many Afghan interpreters and their families here in Canada.

Let me start the way any good entrepreneur should—with an offer. My offer is simple: Work with me to map, measure and unlock the veteran entrepreneurship pipeline in Canada—not in theory and not in another glossy brochure, but through a proper, evidence-based strategy that treats veteran founders as a national economic asset rather than a side project.

I'm not going to give you a 10-point solution in five minutes; that's obvious. That would be consultant malpractice.

What I am going to do is lay out the problem, show you what we know from the United States and make it painfully clear how little we actually know about veteran entrepreneurs in Canada. If you want real answers, that's what a follow-on mandate is for.

In the United States, the picture is very clear. There are 1.6 million businesses contributing one trillion dollars' worth of revenue per year. Research has shown that American veterans are almost twice as likely to be self-employed as non-veterans and 80% more successful in their businesses than their civilian counterparts. In other words, the U.S. can actually measure both the upside and the friction in its veteran entrepreneurship ecosystem.

Now let's cross the border. In Canada, there are about 460,000 veterans. Roughly 8,500 members transition out of the Canadian Armed Forces every year.

Here's the uncomfortable question: How many of them own businesses, in what sectors and with how many employees? What are their failure rates, their capital gaps and their export potential?

No one in this room can answer these questions with confidence, because we haven't bothered to build a proper national picture. We have signals, but not a system. We have grassroots initiatives like shopveteran.ca and programs like the Prince's Operation Entrepreneur—which is now, unfortunately, defunct.

That's the first barrier. We're flying blind.

My personal experience as an entrepreneur navigating the minefield of VAC and PCVRS programs includes being threatened with benefit suspension for not following the vocational plan of becoming a CBC radio host, even though I'm a biochemist with a master's degree in education; having my DEC decision delayed due to the suspicion that since I hosted a podcast and coached veterans, I was making employment income and not declaring it while on the IRB; and not being eligible for a work chair from VAC for my service-related injury because I'm self-employed.

From my work with Canadian veterans and from the largest military entrepreneurship conference in the world, a few themes keep coming up. One is data and visibility. Veteran founders are invisible in our national stats. If you're not counted, you're not planned for. You're not in the procurement strategies, in the innovation funds or in the export playbook.

Another theme is capital and the benefits cliff. In the U.S., they at least know that veterans are more likely to be entrepreneurs and still face financial gaps. In Canada, a veteran weighing a start-up has to navigate a maze of VAC benefits, tax rules and provincial programs, often with a very real fear that trying to build a business will jeopardize the safety that keeps food on the table.

The fact that we prevent income growth while on disability is beyond comprehension to me. It implies that we would rather people sit at home, collect their cheque, shut up and smoke their cannabis.

The supports are fragmented. There's no clear front door for Canadian veterans who want to start and grow a business. Instead, there's a patchwork of non-profits, boot camps, short-term projects and well-meaning pilots. These are good people and good work, but from a systems perspective, it's a bag full of parts; it's not an engine.

As for culture and identity, we train people to follow orders in the Canadian Armed Forces and then drop them into a world in which success depends on breaking patterns, questioning assumptions and pitching themselves. For many, especially those who, like me, are dealing with injuries, chronic pain and operational stress injuries, entrepreneurship is both an opportunity and a psychological minefield.

Back home in Montreal, I'm surrounded by a friend network of veteran entrepreneurs who never mention that they're veterans because it's bad for business. Why? Canada has consistently driven home a message in the media that we are unhinged sex predators or “grumpy old man” veterans who complain about our benefits. The reality is that only veterans buy from other veteran-owned businesses. There was not a single increase in sales during my elbows-up campaign, unfortunately.

What do I want from you today? I don't want a new brochure or another pilot. I want this committee to treat veteran entrepreneurs as economic policy, not charity. It means three things at a high level.

The first is to count us. Direct the VAC, StatsCan and partners to properly identify, track and report on veteran-owned businesses as a distinct category.

Second, follow the outcomes, not the intentions. Tie funding and programs to measurable results, revenue growth, jobs created, exports and innovation, not just to seats in a workshop.

Third, stop assuming that “jobseeker” is the only postservice identity available. For a significant portion of veterans, the right question isn't, “Who will hire you?” but “What will you build, and how do we get out of your way?”

Here, my consulting offer comes in. My team and I know this landscape from the ground level—Canadian and American. We built programs, navigated VAC, secured funding as a for-profit company and worked directly with veterans who are trying to create value instead of just surviving.

I'm not here to hand you a prepackaged solution. I'm here to say that you have a massive, underused engine of economic growth sitting in your veteran community. Right now, you don't even have the dashboard wired up. Give us a mandate to build the dashboard and the road map that follows, and five years from now, we won't be guessing how many veteran entrepreneurs Canada has. We'll be arguing about how to scale them faster.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

Thank you very much, Mr. Morrow.

I would like to open the floor for questions now.

Mr. Richards.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Morrow. I especially appreciate that you came here with a very clear set of ideas and recommendations for us. This is incredibly valuable, so thank you for that.

You briefly mentioned the United States. It sounded to me as though you feel they are doing a better job in terms of fostering and encouraging veteran entrepreneurship. This is what I thought I heard you imply.

Can you tell me what you know about the differences between Canada and the United States in regard to this? What could we learn and apply here in Canada to do better to help encourage and foster our veteran entrepreneurs?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

Absolutely. It's a great question.

I wouldn't be a good senior non-commissioned officer and officer of the Canadian Armed Forces if I didn't show up with solutions to a complex problem.

I've seen and learned that, in the United States, they have an office in their veterans affairs department that handles new businesses, and they can get a designator, a number, that allows them to access different types of funding. That alone would get the ball rolling, in my opinion, here in Canada. You would then have the potential to apply for preferential rates at the bank, maybe BDC. Additionally, you would be able to bid on contracts. A certain number of contracts have to be veteran-owned companies. That is policy in the United States. I think that alone would create a massive windfall for a lot of Canadian veteran-owned businesses because we don't have an entry point. We don't have a front door.

Their network of veteran businesses is vastly superior to ours. They recognize it in policy, and because of that, they are obviously the kings of entrepreneurship in that regard. Many veterans are more adept at creating businesses because—and from personal experience, it makes sense—our risk tolerance is much higher than that of the average civilian. What I did in the military compared to what I do now is kind of laughable. I sit behind a mic and do podcasts, and I coach people online. For me, the risk is financial. This is a cakewalk compared to what I did in the Canadian Armed Forces.

We would be wise to start looking at how they set up their structure, policy-wise, and to see if we can emulate it as closely as possible. The Americans are great when it comes to collaborating and working with us to help get us off the ground. That's why I do a lot of my work in the United States.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

I could be mistaken, but I believe this occurs in the U.S.: There is a preferred status for veteran-owned businesses in terms of procurement when it comes to government procurement. Do you think it would make a big difference for a lot of veteran-owned businesses if we were to apply something like this in Canada—give veterans a preferred status in terms of government procurement?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

That's a no-brainer solution. I know one here in Ottawa already that would be first in line, in my opinion.

It's not really my wheelhouse. I offer services to individual veterans to improve their health and fitness.

Related to procurement, it's a no-brainer strategy; I think a lot of veterans would take that as a signal to start creating really good solutions. Especially in the defence industry, we see what the gaps are, so if we leave, just like in the American system, they see where the gaps are, the entrepreneurial spirit takes over and then they fill those gaps with the free market.

I think it would be an excellent idea.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

Okay.

Speaking even just generally as an entrepreneur and specifically as a veteran entrepreneur, what would you say are some of the common blockages or impediments to success that are faced by entrepreneurs in Canada? Do you have some suggestions or recommendations on those areas?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

Once the mindset's established that an individual is going to be an entrepreneur, that's probably step one. I think the CAF does a great job of creating really headstrong individuals who can take on that challenge.

Then, the second most important issue to tackle is capital. Access to capital is incredibly hard. I've struggled to raise capital to help myself grow, so I'm bootstrapped. I'm too small to really garner any serious attention, and the majority of the businesses that I talk with and that I engage with are all in the exact same position.

Our market is small here in Canada; we know that. Breaking out into the general plurality of Canadians when we want to sell to everybody and have a successful business is tough as well. Finding mentorship is tough. Definitely, capital is very hard to come by; typically we have to rely on the bank or a BDC loan, and those aren't quite favourable and have no special programs just for veterans.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

Okay.

While you're here, I was going to ask if there are any other areas that you have advice on. We're here to talk about entrepreneurship, but are there any other areas of advice for VAC on what they could do better or differently, from your own experiences or the experiences of other veterans?

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

You have 10 seconds.

11:15 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

There has to be some sort of concept of a veteran becoming an entrepreneur within the back-to-work process, because it was awful for me. I don't think veterans who decide to get into entrepreneurship should be penalized for it.

The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde

Thank you very much, Mr. Morrow.

I forgot to mention that I am the clock keeper. Just as in the military, I am extremely focused on keeping everyone on time. I apologize in advance. Thank you for your service, sir.

I will now go to Mrs. Hirtle for six minutes.

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you, Madam Chair.

She's our drill sergeant.

A voice

Oh, oh!

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I'm sure you are.

Thank you for being with us this morning. It's lovely to have you and good to hear your information.

Talking about transitions, you mentioned something in your opening statement about the culture and identity of going from following orders to having to pitch yourself. As you were transitioning into your own consulting business, what skills do you feel were transferable from your military service that you brought with you into the business you're running?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

It's a great question.

I had stubbornness, an inability to quit and a no-fail mission mentality. In all seriousness, there's the resolve that a lot of us have of leaving the military. When you enter into entrepreneurship, it is another war, just in a different battlefield. The amount of failure that we experience...and if you know the CAF as I do, you're always understaffed and undermanned; you have to just figure it out and get it done.

This is the perfect transition for me. That was me from day one in the Canadian Armed Forces. Now I just get to solve complex problems, but those complex problems are ones I actually want to solve. I get to move forward and help other veterans get healthier and fitter in the process.

I would say a very strong capacity for resilience is probably the most important skill and then just having confidence in your ability to figure things out. That's all entrepreneurship is: It's just figuring out problems day after day. We're definitely well trained and well positioned to become good entrepreneurs; we just need the landscape to help us out and not be in our way so much.

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you.

What about skills you perhaps would have liked to use but that were more challenging, that people weren't as open to or that you struggled to communicate? Is this...?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

I chose to remain in the veteran sphere for my service-related company because that's what I knew; that's what I understood. If you know veterans, or if you know the market of veterans, it's probably the worst market to stay in. We're grumpy and cheap; we need convincing, and we don't like giving up email addresses because we think the government's going to steal them from us, so it's not an easy go.

Were I to do it all over again, I probably would have chosen a different market. However, I'm in it now, and I love it.

I think the question was about what skills I wish I had.

I wish I had a better capacity to reach out for help. Entrepreneurship is essentially about working together. For me, the lone wolf kind of operator took hold for a bit too long. Now, I've seen the light, and I realize there's a lot more to entrepreneurship than just trying to work on it by yourself. Building that, asking for help and not being afraid to tell somebody, “Hey, I'm not doing so well. Could you give me a hand?” are probably important skills whose absence I suffered from at the get-go.

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you.

I think a lot of adults struggle with that, but I can appreciate that it's even more so for veterans, absolutely.

You mentioned that access to capital was a real challenge. How did you get started? I'm sure there's a story there.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

Madam Chair, how long do we have?

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

You have a couple of minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

Funny story, I got started in the completely wrong way in entrepreneurship. I wasn't being followed by VAC at the time. Although I was released medically, I didn't realize I had pretty severe post-traumatic stress syndrome. I just decided that I couldn't carry on in my teaching career any longer because I was having panic attacks, and I didn't know why, and I just said, “I'm done."

I left, and I found a job in tech. I subsequently got fired from that job because it was a terrible fit, and then I told my wife, “I have this great idea. I'm going to start a company right now.”

She said, “That is not a good idea," but I'm glad I did it because now I'm here with you today. I started with the money I had in my bank account. That's it. I had no idea how to access capital, but I knew I could do something relatively cheaply online, so I started coaching people online and started making revenue that way.

Now, trying to grow the business, access more capital and access individuals who can put me in the right rooms is where I'm starting to focus a lot of my efforts. That's the nature of pretty much all the companies I know and all the individuals I know who started companies. We all started in our basements and figured we could make money doing this. Then we all bootstrapped our companies.

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I hear that a lot.

I'm going to jump on networking because you made a comment about getting into the right rooms with the right people.

Are there networking organizations specifically for veterans? If not, should there be? What can we do to allow veterans better access to individuals who can aid with those challenges?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Performance Officer, Morrow Consulting & Training Inc.

David Morrow

There are definitely organizations out there; it's just a matter of whether they're the right fit and whether their mission aligns with what you're doing.

We've created quasi networks that are unofficial, which I find more beneficial than the official networks out there, but there are very few of them.

Again, we don't have—as they do in the United States—veterans service organizations that are actually understood and organized through the VA, so our organizations are a patchwork. We don't know which ones are doing well, and most are struggling, to be honest.

For my personal objectives, I don't necessarily want to be just in veteran networks; I want to be in everybody else's network and engage with the broader population.