Evidence of meeting #30 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lot.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
There were 283 therapy sessions, more than four new clients a week and 160 assessments since 2024.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Have you experienced, regularly or at all, instances where the PCVRS team was not familiar with the transitional services available upon release?
CRUX Psychology
I haven't seen that. I found them to be knowledgeable and responsive.
There were aspects of the testimony provided that I would identify with. I think that when you're working with vulnerable populations, such as military members, you do have to be careful about how often you assess them.
If you assessed someone two years ago, it is an open question as to whether or not they need to be assessed again, because symptoms vary and illnesses progress. However, if you assessed someone two months ago, I think it would be good for us to spare them from the unneeded additional assessment that can result in retraumatization, as it is a threatening and anxiety-provoking experience.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
During your time as a provider for PCVRS, has there been any change to their protocols, their systems or their attitudes towards these repeat assessments from the time they initially took on the contract until now?
CRUX Psychology
I would say that PCVRS has always been responsive. I meet with them regularly, and we have a good line of communication.
For instance, right now we're finding some of their assessments, as part of our therapy process, to be unduly long. I've offered them that feedback and we're working through it together. I'd say it's been quite collaborative. It's not one-sided. It's been positive to have a reciprocal relationship.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
That's interesting.
What about veterans being questioned with respect to their integrity by PCVRS? Has that been a common element of your experience?
CRUX Psychology
I've never heard anything like that. It upsets me to know something like that has occurred, but the RSSs or case managers we work with are all respectful. I've never heard anything like that with our staff or psychologists. We carry tremendous respect for veterans, their service and their sacrifice.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Do you have a multidisciplinary team that works with the veterans?
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Has there ever been or is there regularly conflict with the code of professional conduct of psychologists with respect to carrying out their responsibilities under the PCVRS contract?
CRUX Psychology
We do have a strict code of ethics in psychology, and adhering to it is very important to me and our team, but I would not say that we find ourselves in conflict with our code of ethics in dealing with PCVRS.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
What about the mental health continuum of care? How would you assess the knowledge, the familiarity and the working ability of the PCVRS team with respect to the mental health continuum of care?
CRUX Psychology
We're trusted as experts. Most of our psychologists have doctoral-level training, and I think we need to be trusted as the experts. I do find that PCVRS is quite flexible and supportive in helping us meet our treatment goals. I can't think of a time an extension request was denied. For instance, if you're working with a veteran and find that they need more service, the answer is always yes, if not almost always yes. It's a positive and supportive environment.
As I pointed out, PCVRS can be bureaucratically intense—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you very much, Dr. Sherry.
Now, for six minutes, Ms. Gaudreau will speak in French, so make sure you are on the language channel of your choice.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
To start with, I want to express my heartfelt appreciation for those who sat on this committee in the last Parliament. We have with us today none other than Mr. Luc Desilets, for whom I have a great deal of respect.
I'd like to stress that the report on the suicide prevention study will be tabled in the House of Commons shortly, and that's thanks to Mr. Desilets and what we're going through. We added meetings to discuss the Lifemark network and the PCVRS because we hadn't shed enough light on them.
Seriously, I salute you, Mr. Desilets.
Madam Chair, I too am upset, for two reasons. I'm upset to see a dichotomy and a contradiction in the service delivery. I'm reassured and delighted to know there are a lot of veterans in the Atlantic region. We are talking about 283 satisfied individuals. That's perfect. However, what we're talking about are the services provided.
Mr. Parsons, when you were a correctional officer, standards had to be met and you were comfortable meeting them. However, you stopped providing services to veterans, because it went against your ethical principles. Why? We were told everything was fine, but we're constantly learning that things aren't fine.
Registered Psychiatric Nurse, As an Individual
Again, as a frontline health care worker dealing with the clients directly—not with management, directors or VAC itself but with the clients individually—you get to hear their truths and, of course, there's a mental truth.
The difference in working with Correctional Service Canada and the clients there.... Yes, they're criminals and inmate offenders, but I wasn't there to deal with their punishments. I was there to deal with their health and their mental health. At the same time, there are standards. Even with that, with Correctional Service Canada, human rights are respected. As a layman, I'm there to keep them alive.
With regard to the veteran benefits, I know—and also being a veteran—that the benefits are there and that they're being restricted. By “continuum of care” with regard to mental health, I mean allowing them, even if they're not a veteran, to have that rapport with their service provider, which I saw PCVRS interrupt numerous times directly. I didn't hear this from a director or a manager. This is from talking to the veteran directly.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
My understanding is this is not a one-off. Thank you very much.
I'd like to turn to Professor Marier‑Deschênes.
What are the main limitations of the private model that came out of your research projects on the PCVRS model?
Assistant Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
What I heard has a lot to do with the rigidity of what's included or proposed in the rehabilitation program. I was told there's little flexibility when it comes to adapting to the individual's health issues, to their reality.
When it comes to chronic pain, the biopsychosocial aspects need to be taken into consideration. That's one of the leading guidelines for chronic pain management, and it seems to be given very little consideration. I don't necessarily want to focus on the health care providers, the professionals. Perhaps this is also happening in the way services are organized. It's not necessarily on an individual basis. That's something that was brought up.
From what I heard, the limiting aspect is the lack of services offered nearby. It's annoying. Experiences might vary from one region of the country to another, in different provinces. We know, for example, there would be psychologists or rehabilitation professionals, so occupational therapists and physiotherapists, nearby. However, right now, veterans have to travel great distances, which exacerbates their symptoms.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I was a caregiver for a long time, and when you need rehabilitation care, you can't drive 20 hours to go and see a health care professional. Seriously. I understand that.
I feel veterans are being discriminated against based on where they live. I won't talk about French or anything else. Seriously, that shocks me a great deal.
Since my time's up, I'd invite you to provide us with your study reports, and we can take them into account in our report.
Assistant Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
Actually, I don't know if I can take an extra 30 seconds. I don't have a report—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
No. I'm so sorry. Ms. Gaudreau asked you a question, and we hope you can give us a follow-up.
Thank you very much, Ms. Marier‑Deschênes.
Mr. Richards, you have five minutes.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
Can I continue along this line with you, Pascale? It's in relation to this idea of veterans who are outside of major urban centres and are further away from those places, out in more remote areas and things like that. This is quite often where veterans choose to locate themselves, away from some of the major urban centres. I think this is where one of the challenges with this program seems to be. You identified it even in your opening statement. You mentioned that one of the impacts of that is that often veterans will then choose to withdraw because it becomes too difficult to comply with what they have to do, where they have to drive and things like that for these appointments.
Can you speak a little bit to what that impact is? What does that then do? When the veteran chooses to withdraw, what does that trigger in their life? What change could that make for them when they have to make a difficult decision to withdraw because it's too difficult to comply with what's needed?
Assistant Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
The first thing is obviously the financial impact. When a veteran leaves the rehabilitation program, they lose coverage. In fact, I think it drops from 90% to 75%. Financially, it has an impact.
That said, I think the problem is self-efficacy. I think some people could've kept going if rehabilitation was less rigid, although they might not have had access to exactly the same services. Some may choose to continue with the insurer and choose other types of treatment, not for rehabilitation but for maintenance. That's what I was told. I don't have any more information on that.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
Was this issue a problem prior to PCVRS being involved in the rehabilitation program?