Evidence of meeting #35 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pcvrs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Forcier  As an Individual
Peddle  As an Individual
Slingerland  Executive Director, Business Development and Strategic Partnerships, The Ottawa Hospital
Tesfamichael  As an Individual

11:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Business Development and Strategic Partnerships, The Ottawa Hospital

Aaron Slingerland

Any time you operate a specialized assessment program, you're at risk of duplicating a lot of the assessment process, which is kind of like opening the wound of the trauma. They have already likely been working with people in the community or have gone through talking about their issues, especially in the guise of a mental health program. It's part of the process that needs to happen in order for our clinicians to make their recommendations out of the assessment.

It's important that the clinicians who are undertaking these specialty assessments have specialized training to be conscious of those facts and of the experiences necessary to be empathetic in that instance.

A seamless referral process can be helpful for the journey of the veteran as well, where you try to limit the burden of paperwork and bureaucracy and really just get them timely care as soon as possible. As you've heard from the other panellists, the burden and complexity of a program can weigh heavily on a veteran or patient. Any way a program can eliminate that as much as possible is super important to get them to care that's effective.

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much.

Now I'll switch to Master Corporal Forcier.

Ma'am, I'm just curious, do you feel that women veterans face different or additional barriers in the PCVRS or VAC rehabilitation system?

11:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Natalie Forcier

I would say absolutely yes.

We operate differently. In the military, I have to out-alpha the lowest alpha male in order to gain just a little bit of credibility. When we leave the military, we're typically more alpha than your general civilian population, and that doesn't fit in society. We tend to be motherly. We take care of ourselves and our families, typically everybody else before ourselves. A lot of the women I work with are completely oblivious to their trauma and how that affects their personal lives.

It's an added layer of rehabilitation that is not part of the PCVRS rehab plan.

Noon

Liberal

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I understand. I'm totally going to use “out-alpha the lowest alpha male”, in a sentence later today. Thank you for that.

My next question is for you as well.

What minimum qualifications, training and veteran-specific cultural competency do you feel should be required for providers working with injured or transitioning veterans?

Noon

As an Individual

Natalie Forcier

Oh, my God. You're talking about minimum competency.

I know that a lot of veterans are experiencing psychologists who are brand new to the field or are specifically working with ADHD when the veteran has complex PTSD.

Brand new psychologists right off the street through Lifemark basically leave after six months, once they've garnered experience, and move on to a new job. Practitioners with experience understand the military, and having an adviser for the profession who is military themselves could possibly support them as well, providing guidance from someone who served and understands the complexities of who we are.

Noon

Liberal

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you.

I have 15 seconds left.

Mr. Peddle, do you have anything to add?

Noon

As an Individual

Joel Peddle

It would just be that she's spot on. Women in service go through an entirely different thing from what I went through. They absolutely should be consulted on what they need.

Noon

Liberal

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you.

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

Thank you to our witnesses.

We will briefly suspend our meeting. We'll excuse you and get our next witness set up as quickly as we can so we can get started.

With that, the meeting is suspended.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

We'll call the meeting to order. We'll get right to it here.

We're resuming our study on the experience of Black veterans.

We have a point of order.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

The interpretation was not working.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'm not getting interpretation.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

Can we check that out, please?

Is it better now?

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Yes, it's working.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

We're good.

We'll get right to it with the witness we have today on the experience of Black veterans.

We have with us today Lieutenant-Commander Esrom Tesfamichael.

We will start with opening remarks from you for five minutes or thereabouts.

The floor is yours.

Esrom Tesfamichael As an Individual

Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

As mentioned, I'm Lieutenant-Commander Tesfamichael. It's been my privilege to serve my country as a naval reserve officer for the past 25 years and counting, on operations both here in Canada and overseas, and to have literally grown up in this institution, having joined at the age of 16. I've also worked for the Department of National Defence as a civilian policy adviser on gender equity and intersectional analysis, and more recently with the directorate for anti-racism implementation. I'm proud of my service with the Royal Canadian Navy and my personal contributions to the CAF over the last quarter century.

I appear before you to support this study as somebody who has served, led and advised on the experiences at hand. Over time, I've come to understand that my experience in the CAF is directly linked to my experience as a Black Canadian. Those two things don't sit separately. They've influenced how I've been seen, how I've been assessed and how I've moved through the system.

I would also like to acknowledge, up front, that I'm deeply proud of the service of all Black members of the Canadian Armed Forces, both past and present. I wish to do them justice by acknowledging here that Black service members are not a monolith, as I'm sure all of you well know. The CAF reflects a wide range of Black identities, cultures and lived experiences. As a result, the experiences of Black service members cannot be neatly summarized by a single narrative. They are diverse, sometimes divergent and shaped by multiple factors, including role, environment and individual circumstance. Recognizing that diversity, I feel, is essential if we are to accurately understand both the challenges and the progress.

That said, there are common forces and conditions that, to varying degrees, influence those experiences, namely systemic anti-Black racism, colonialism and white supremacy.

I'd like to start by framing the conversation a bit.

When we talk about the Black experience in the Canadian Armed Forces, we're not talking about just one story, as I mentioned. There are many Black communities represented in the CAF, with different cultures, backgrounds and paths to service. Some members are Canadian-born, some are newcomers, some serve full-time and some—like me—serve as reservists. There isn't just one experience, but that doesn't mean there aren't patterns. That's really where the institution needs to focus: not on a single story but on where outcomes start to line up in a way that deserves closer attention.

This brings me to terms that often get in the way of this conversation: “systemic racism” and its remedy, “anti-racism”. I'll be honest. This is where discussions can sometimes get stuck, because people hear these terms and think about individuals being called racist. That's not how we approach it. For me, systemic racism is about systems and how they behave over time, not individual actions or conduct. It's about whether the structures we rely on for hiring, promotions, discipline and health care benefits produce consistently equitable outcomes for everyone. If they don't, we need to understand why.

We've had some extremely important moments in recent years: the class action related to racism in the CAF, the apology for systemic racism by the chief of the defence staff and the Zellars report, among others. Those matter. They create space. If I can put it simply, though, we can't stay at that level of acknowledgement forever. The next step is considerably harder. It's now about looking at how systems work day-to-day and where they can be strengthened, not only at the individual level but also at an institutional one.

There's also a tendency to focus on outcomes, like representation and readiness. Both matter, but I would suggest that this is not where we start. We often talk about representation, for example, as something we achieve, but in my experience, representation works best when it's an indicator of other factors. If recruitment, development and promotion systems are working well, representation will improve as a result. If they're not working, representation will not improve, no matter how much attention we put on it.

The same idea applies to readiness. We talk about readiness a lot—and we should—but readiness is not the starting point. Again, in this context it is the result. It's what you get when systems are fair, when people trust them and when they hold up under pressure. Sometimes it's not dramatic. It can be as simple as who gets informal mentorship, who feels comfortable raising an issue early, or who has the documentation they need when it matters most later on, which is immediately relevant to the veterans conversation. Each of those things seems small on its own, but over time they add up. They are not one-offs. They are a product of a system that was not designed for all.

There's another concept that can help make sense of this.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

Lieutenant-Commander Tesfamichael, we're about a minute over the time allotted. I'll let you wrap up and summarize what you have remaining in your opening quickly, if you can, and then we'll move to questions.

12:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Esrom Tesfamichael

Do you know what? I'm just probably going to ramble, so we can carry on, and I'll answer questions to the committee.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB

I appreciate the honesty, and I thank you for your testimony. Also, thank you for your service to our country.

We're now going to the rounds of questions. In our first round of questions, we have six minutes for each party. We will begin with Mr. Tolmie for Conservative opposition, for six minutes.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Thank you, Lieutenant-Commander. Thank you for your service. I don't think anything that you've shared was rambling. I do appreciate you for coming before us and sharing your perspective.

I have one question that is business-related. It's with respect to your role as an intelligence officer within the Canadian Armed Forces. I just want to get it on record.

Would you say that your role is a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week kind of position? Many people have the perspective that when you work and live in Ottawa, you get to switch off. They don't realize that a lot of people who are working here are actually dealing with things overseas, and the job is 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Would you agree with that comment?

12:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Esrom Tesfamichael

For clarification and to go back to what I said earlier, as a reservist, I serve on a part-time basis. I have a civilian career outside of the military, so it's not 24-7 for me, sir.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

Would it be, for those who are in a full-time role in Ottawa and who serve in a capacity similar to yours?

12:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Esrom Tesfamichael

As a regular force member or as a reservist on full-time service, you are always under the guise of the code of service discipline, so in a sense, yes. In terms of the tasks you're asked to perform, that's not so much.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK

I just wanted to establish that some people have to take their jobs home with them, even though they may be in a domestic role.

I really appreciate your testimony. You talked about patterns. You talked about systems. I really appreciated that perspective that you brought forward.

Can you share with me and this committee any patterns that you're aware of where we're failing Black veterans in Veterans Affairs?

12:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Esrom Tesfamichael

I don't know that I can speak with authority on how Veterans Affairs is failing Black veterans. I can maybe speak, for a bit more context, to some of the unique needs that Black veterans may have that may or may not be part of the veterans process.