Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 7th, 2025

[Capt(N) (Ret’d) Philip Ralph]

First of all, there's a positive element to the stoic culture. The military, like all uniformed services, is tasked with getting stuff done. When things are going sideways, we're those strange people, as you know, who run towards danger when all of the smart people run away from it.

When I talk to people who haven't been in uniform, I like to put it very simply to them. You have to realize that those who have served in uniform think differently. That's not better. That's not worse. It's just different. If you're going to meet their needs, you have to be able to speak their language and speak to them in a manner that resonates with them.

I've had veterans phone me and say, “Can you find me a clinician? I went and found one. I thought I needed help, so I put my hand up, but I went into so-and-so's office, and they can't spell ‘veteran’ or ‘first responder’.” That's because we come from a culture where we're trained that when something happens, there is an SOP for it. You do this, and then you do that, and then you do this. They want a plan. They want to see that there's something there that makes sense and that there's a goal. When it gets all lofty and fussy they think, “This civvy doesn't understand me.”

It's one of the reasons that Wounded Warriors Canada has great partnerships with other organizations, like Homewood Health and Trillium Health Partners. If they are going to see a veteran, every member of Homewood's staff has to take the introduction to trauma-exposed professionals course that Wounded Warriors Canada offers online.

I suggest that members of the committee email me their contact numbers, and I'll enrol you in the course for free. You need to take it just to understand. It's five hours. It's asynchronous. It's online. It's taught by our national clinical director, Dr. Tim Black. That's important. I know we had the same relationship with that program with Atlas because we're collaborating together.

The problem with stoic culture is, of course, that when you bring something out of the “doing your job” atmosphere and bring it into your home and wider society, A, people don't understand it, and B, it doesn't really work that well in other situations. We need to understand where they're coming from and treat them in a manner that....

The other thing is that if you don't deal with trauma, nothing else matters. I emphasized this line twice. I did that on purpose. It's not because I forgot that I said it. That is the truth. If you don't deal with trauma, nothing else matters.

[Braedon Clark, Liberal, Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS]

I don't want to speak for members of the committee in general, but I assume we would all be interested in taking you up on the offer that you mentioned, first and foremost.

With Wounded Warriors Canada, there are obviously a lot of different programs. You mentioned the trauma-informed experiences. There are programs for the spouses and kids of veterans, which is fantastic. In your opening statement, you also talked about Warrior Health as a model that exists. It sounds like it's only in Ontario. When I was looking through the website, I took note of that as well. I believe you said it started in the spring. Could you just give us an overview of that program and what it looks like? How do you, I assume, think it can help?

[Capt(N) (Ret’d) Philip Ralph]

The public safety side of the house uniformed service has many of the same struggles as military uniformed people do. WSIB was not getting traction. People weren't returning to work. They were going off work with mental health injuries. Premiums were going up. Nothing was happening, and people were frustrated with WSIB. They said exactly the same things about WSIB that veterans say about Veterans Affairs Canada. We said to them, “It's because you're not speaking their language.”

We began with a number of programs and inputs. We started with the first responders speciality program, which is another program. Finally, we said that we needed to get a resource into the hands of every single first responder and their family members in the province of Ontario, one that is trauma-informed, culturally appropriate and anonymous so that nobody in their chain of command would know about it. That's Warrior Health.

You can go on your phones right now, in your apps, and you can download Warrior Health. You can see the resources there. What's wonderful is that it's been accessed, since its launch, 200,000 times. The only information we get back at Wounded Warriors Canada is on how many times it's been accessed.

It's done with our partners. Collaboration is important. We have a great partnership with Atlas. That program is a partnership with Homewood, Trillium Health, CAMH and Boots on the Ground. They're leading places.

That's a solution, and it can be implemented today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I'm very sorry to do this, sir. I have to give equal time to all the members of Parliament.

Ms. Gaudreau, go ahead for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, we should keep the witnesses with us until late this evening.

I think we have to start with the basics, from what I understand. I agree with my colleague Mr. Clark. Not only should this training be taken, but I would go even further. I don't know if you agree with me, Captain Ralph, but I would say that this training should be taken by anyone who needs to deploy a program for veterans or contact them, whether it's a departmental employee, an elected official, a minister or someone else. The offer to take this training should not be limited to us.

How can we make real changes if the average person, not necessarily because of ill will on their part, doesn't understand or appreciate the situation of veterans?

Perhaps it would be a good idea to include this proposal in our report—that absolutely everyone, including public servants and elected officials, should take this training, as it provides the basis for understanding the situation.

What do you think?

[Capt(N) (Ret’d) Philip Ralph]

There's a simple answer: absolutely.

There you go. Is that short enough?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Yes, thank you.

Is that a unanimous response?

[Fardous Hosseiny]

Thank you, Madame Gaudreau, for that fantastic question.

I completely agree. As I think Captain Ralph was sharing earlier, when it comes to cultural competency, not many service providers have it. When veterans get care, it's a courageous step they're taking. They're finally putting their hand up and saying they need help. But when you get a service provider who doesn't understand your realities or who doesn't understand your world or your culture, you'll never go back. If that's your first experience, unfortunately it means you're not getting the care you deserve.

We have to ensure that health care providers who are working with veterans and their families have cultural competency. I agree that everyone should get it, starting with case managers. We hear from veterans all the time that if you get a great case manager who understands your world, then you're going to get the care you want and need, but that's a lottery sometimes. Unfortunately, you might not get an individual who has the training.

Atlas is working on developing cultural competency training that's building off the trauma-exposed professionals training we did in collaboration with Wounded Warriors. This is one that Australia had developed. It was shown to be quite promising. We're now adapting it to the Canadian culture. Although there's overlap, there are some very distinct differences here in Canada. This is training we want to offer completely free to the community, to service providers. I think ultimately, if you're getting good care, that will help with suicide prevention.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I think it starts with that.

You probably feel that we are very empathetic, and we're all here to listen to you. No matter how much goodwill we show here, as soon as we leave, that will disappear. We have a budget and constraints to stay within. The goodwill is there, but what does it take to make the choice?

We are studying Bill C‑11, which seeks to make changes to the Criminal Code, among other things. That's great, but what about the services available to veterans and the respect we owe them? That's the first thing I'm going to ask. I'll be told that there are mental health problems everywhere, as well as homelessness issues. There's certainly a lot going on. Whatever the case may be, I feel there is a lack of respect for the service provided by veterans and their contribution to our country.

It's important to look at the situation in countries where people say they're proud of their veterans. That pride goes hand in hand with the fact that veterans don't need to seek services or help, unlike the situation here, where two thirds of veterans attempt suicide. I'm thinking, for example, of Mr. Thorne's comments. A close-knit community and investments being made will lead to fewer vulnerable veterans who don't feel understood.

I am making a heartfelt plea. I don't even have any questions for you. We need to wake up. We know what needs to be done.

I invite you to call on all the veterans who have used your services. You mentioned six cases that have been identified through your services. You have to help us help you. I'm putting myself in the minister's shoes. She has to have as complete a picture of the situation as possible. That way, if the time comes to make the decision to increase defence spending by 5%, everyone will be able to say that's fine, but the reflex will be to ask what needs to be done in terms of prevention and what is being done for people who are still alive, including veterans who went to Afghanistan.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on my insights. This affects me, but what affects me the most is knowing that we'll leave here, we'll table a report on our study, but we won't harvest the fruits of our labour. We have to tell it like it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I'm very sorry, Ms. Gaudreau, but the witnesses can keep that in mind and provide you with an answer next time you have the floor.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Richards.

You have five minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Thanks again, Chair.

Let me start with you, Captain Ralph.

It seems to me—if you have a different opinion, please feel free to share it—that right now VAC does a fairly decent job in the initial contact when it encounters a veteran in crisis. Frontline staff have the training and are able to recognize and generally de-escalate someone who, in the immediate circumstance, is suicidal. I think where there seems to be a gap or where there is a lapse is past that stage, when the veteran needs prolonged care. You mentioned, of course, your program.

Can you briefly talk about the importance of follow-up when it comes to dealing with a veteran who's struggling with trauma or suicidality and about what needs to exist beyond that initial contact and initial de-escalation?

[Capt(N) (Ret’d) Philip Ralph]

If we're talking about treatment and our downstream programs, as we call them, similar to what Oliver Thorne talked about with the group-based operational stress intervention programs, it's a sad state that these programs that are essential to veterans' recoveries are funded largely off bake sales, bike rides and other community-based fundraising. Wounded Warriors Canada has wonderful support throughout Canada. As the director of clinical services, I get to spend almost $6 million every year on these services, but we have a huge waiting list.

These programs, although not cheap, are affordable when you look at the alternatives, such as long-term in-patient facilities, because they deal specifically with trauma. It's no different from a physical injury. The earlier you get care, the better the outcome. It's pretty simple. We need to be proactive in the preventative stuff, such as Warrior Health and the introduction to trauma-exposed professionals course. Every member of Global Affairs who goes on a foreign mission now takes trauma resiliency training provided by Wounded Warriors Canada. They were going into horrible spots in the world and had no idea what they were going to encounter.

These things need to be done up front so that people understand what they're going to encounter. That won't prevent injury, but it will certainly make people aware. It will make them seek help at an appropriate time. They'll get the care they need. Nanos Research has done research for us over the course of our programs, and we've had over 95% satisfaction. The veteran community says that when they come to our programs, they feel safe, supported and understood. That's important.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Perfect. Thank you so much for that.

Mr. Thorne, what sort of impact do you think it would have on a veteran who might be suicidal, or a family member who has lost a loved one to suicide, if they were expecting the opportunity to come and share at this committee but ended up not being invited due to a lack of time? This study is set for six meetings. Would you suggest that it would have a detrimental impact on someone in that situation? Should this study be longer?

[Oliver Thorne]

Certainly, if somebody is expecting the opportunity to speak.... When we see people affected by suicide, as some of my other colleagues have touched on, it is an enormously destructive and painful experience for somebody to be close to suicide, to be affected by suicide. Yes, I would strongly advocate that if somebody has mustered the courage and taken the time to open up that very painful experience and speak to it, they absolutely should be allowed to. I think to have that opportunity and to then have that opportunity taken away would be extremely painful.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Thank you.

Given that, I would like to move the following motion:

That, according to the training received by the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs on trauma-informed practices, and with recognition of the immense courage it takes for witnesses to recount their stories related to suicide, this committee extend the current study on suicide prevention to no fewer than 10 meetings in order to accommodate all witnesses who wish to give testimony to ensure that all are heard on this gravely important matter.

I have copies that I can distribute. I won't speak to it. I want to see if we can get this dealt with very quickly so we can get back to hearing from our important witnesses.

I will just mention that there are over 60 witnesses here. As has been said, anyone who's had the courage to step forward and say they would be willing to come and talk to the committee about their experience with this kind of matter, whether it be a family member who has lost a loved one or a veteran who has suicidal thoughts, really should be heard.

I would just ask that members give this consideration. We can maybe pass this very quickly and get back to our witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Mr. Richards, I would like to suspend this meeting so we can have a few minutes for everyone to decide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much.

I sincerely apologize to the individuals who are here with us. Thank you for your testimony and this great conversation.

I will ask Mr. Casey for a few words.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I believe the motion is premature. I believe the appropriate time to determine whether or not to extend this study is at the end of the minimum number of meetings we've set out. I don't think we can predict how we're going to feel after six full meetings. I don't think it's fair to have that discussion in front of the witnesses, who have given their time to be here.

Therefore, Madam Chair, I move that debate on this motion now be adjourned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

We'll put the question to a vote.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Can I briefly, before—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I've already called the vote, Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

You'd asked us if we could, and I'm saying I think we could. I'd just like to make one comment, which is that—

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Madam Chair, on a point of order, a motion to adjourn debate is not debatable. If Mr. Richards wishes to engage in debate, that's not permitted. You're obligated to go straight to a vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I am obligated to go straight to the vote.

So that's what we'll do.