Evidence of meeting #8 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lee.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you, Ms. Veilleux.
Now we'll go to Mr. Richards for five minutes.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
Thank you to both of you for being here.
I'll particularly thank you, Jessica, for your courage. I know it wouldn't have been easy to share your personal and family story. It's important because it's the only way we make change. I know you know that and that's why you're doing what you're doing.
I'm going to start with you because you mentioned a number of things.
You've made it very clear that there's a need for the families to have mental health counselling in their own right. I agree with you. It's actually something that was part of our Conservative platform in the last election and I certainly hope it will be a recommendation in this report.
I wanted to talk a little bit about the veterans themselves. You've obviously had a lot of experience there, too. You mentioned a number of different things. You talked about how the various professionals that Lee was working with were all working in silos. You mentioned that for the resources that seemed to be available, he was finding out about them himself or, for the Veterans Affairs' case workers he was working with, the only information they seemed to have about resources was stuff they'd gathered from other veterans.
It seems to me like there's probably a good suggestion right there. Veterans Affairs needs to work better with partners and make sure that there's more access for more options for services, counselling and various other things for our veterans.
I want your thoughts on that, first of all. Beyond that, are there other things that Veterans Affairs could do differently that would have helped your husband or others in a better way?
As an Individual
When it comes to case managers and VAC offering services, we as a family were very grateful for the support that Veterans Affairs provided. However, there are flaws. One of them is that although people are eligible for these services due to their mental health condition and their service, the onus is on the veteran to find out what these resources are and to request them.
For instance, the first time I found out about it, I had spoken to one of the case managers and I was so surprised. I asked if they could give me a list of all the available resources that he was eligible for. I wasn't talking financial; I was talking about support. It was then that I was told there is no list; there is no database.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
If I can interrupt there, that was shocking to me when I first heard that. I've heard it a number of times from a number of different veterans and family members.
How surprised were you by that? I mean, is that clearly something that needs to change?
As an Individual
Yes. I was extremely surprised. I asked, “Well, then, how does he know about this?” They said the resources they know about would be from having a veteran on their caseload who's already used a service, or if another caseworker or a case manager discusses something that one of their veterans had utilized. My concern is this: How many veterans with severe mental health illness and their families can locate these resources and know how to get them? Not everyone has the ability to find them.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
That's a great point right there. The onus should not be on the veteran or their family members. I hear so often that when veterans finally do get help, it's because they just happened upon another veteran who gave them a recommendation. It just seems crazy to me that there isn't that access to resources in that list that needs to be there, or a repository of service providers, at Veterans Affairs.
Thank you for raising that. I think that's an important recommendation that we need.
I don't have much time, but you both mentioned “sanctuary trauma”. Can you each speak briefly to the sanctuary trauma that you experienced or that veterans experience when they're dealing with VAC? What's at the heart of that? What can we do about it?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Madam Ruth and Madam Veilleux, I apologize sincerely. You have 10 seconds for both of you.
Mr. Richards, I'm thinking that maybe this is something to come back to in the next round of questions.
You have five minutes, Ms. Hirtle.
Liberal
Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Ruth, for sharing your story with us today. You have my condolences.
My questions are for you, Madame Veilleux. My French isn't great either, so I'll ask you in English. We've heard from Ms. Ruth about difficulties for families to access services. I've also heard from a number of Legion members in my riding that there are gaps identified in the continuity of care for military families. In your experience, and in consideration of things like sanctuary and institutional trauma, how do organizations like the Legion best serve veterans or their families when they're facing a crisis?
Licensed Sexologist and Policy Consultant, As an Individual
First of all, I think they're kind of responsible for creating a space where it is okay to talk about mental health issues. Right now, there is so much stigma around this that even just naming it is so, so difficult for veterans. When they do, they're laughed at. They're not taken seriously. They're being told to be strong and step up and go through it and it will be okay.
If we can create a space where it's okay to say that we're not doing well and we need support, and where it's not seen as something bad or as something that makes us less of a good person or less capable, then we will take a huge step toward healing and preventing suicide. I touched a bit earlier on peer support. This is what I mean. The story you just told about not having a list of resources is not surprising at all to me. These veterans understand each other. They went through similar experiences. What if we create those spaces so that they can share and be supported, at least a little bit, while they wait for proper services?
Liberal
Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you.
Switching gears a little bit, our new government has implemented a new cabinet post devoted to artificial intelligence. I noted that in your report you referenced AI in relation to mental health supports. Can you expand on where you believe AI can be applied to mental health services for veterans, please?
Licensed Sexologist and Policy Consultant, As an Individual
We need to remain careful about the place of AI but also not be blind about the space it's starting to occupy in care and, in general, in workplaces.
As clinicians, how can we leverage this tool to make care better? That is one question we need to ask ourselves. That could look like clinical guiding principles or clinical support, for example, or a system that can flag when we may have missed something, like a sign of suicide or trauma.
While we need to be careful of AI and not replace clinicians with robots and machines, we can still use it as a tool to be better clinicians and share the knowledge with each other.
When we also look at the infrastructure of care, AI can be used to facilitate interprofessional collaboration. We must not neglect how useful this can be if used properly.
Just to conclude, demonizing AI will not get us anywhere. If we want to remain in front of the wave and keep thinking about innovative policies and ways to support our communities, we need to harness it the best we can.
Licensed Sexologist and Policy Consultant, As an Individual
There are two ideas here. The first would be having conversations, starting to talk about it and understanding what it means to be trauma-informed. It's easy to say, “This practice is trauma-informed,” but is it really, or do you want it to be so you can check that box?
Being able to create this iterative process and ask ourselves the good questions about what is trauma-informed—what do we need to put in place and how can this evolve with the situation in the world?—is how we'll be able to offer quality services to our vets and work with the technologies that exist.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you, Ms. Veilleux.
Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for stressing stigmatization, Ms. Veilleux.
Let's look at the words. We talk about “strengths” when the subject is the Canadian Armed Forces. But here, we are talking about weakness, which varies depending on what stage of life we are at. It may be an injury, for example. In our system, I get the feeling that using certain words amounts to being weak when you can't be weak. I think a lot, in the awareness-raising process, about this culture of silence where you have to be tough.
I want to take a slight detour. I don't know whether you have seen the film Out Standing, Ms. Veilleux. I would urge everyone to see it and then read Ms. Veilleux's report. I think that all of the remarks and all the answers to our questions give us a bit of insight into this world.
What is it that makes us so afraid and prevents us from taking action?
Licensed Sexologist and Policy Consultant, As an Individual
People are afraid of failing. They are afraid of the political cost of doing something that does not achieve enough. They are afraid of putting policies in place that will make the situation worse. They are afraid of recognizing the problem.
When people look at the mental health services provided for veterans, they are only thinking about completing the to-do list, and they think they have done their job. Then they are afraid to look at the results. They are afraid to face the things that have to be improved and the shortcomings of the system, because working in this field sometimes feels like climbing an impossible mountain.
But really, instead of looking at the mountain and not having the courage to climb it, we just have to start by putting one foot in front of the other, and another, and another. After a few years, we will be able to see that each one of those steps has led to a fairer system that acknowledges the pain. Those steps will truly have made the difference.
Liberal
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
I do note that we have a couple of minutes.
Could I get unanimous consent to have the witnesses answer the question about sanctuary trauma?
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
Thanks.
You both mentioned sanctuary trauma in your remarks. I wanted to ask this specifically in terms of Veterans Affairs. What could they do differently in order to reduce the sanctuary trauma that veterans and family members experience when dealing with them?
I'd like both of you, if you could, to give a response.
As an Individual
For myself, as a family member of someone receiving these services, a lot of it is the burden of proof, having to retell their story time and time again. It's having to prove the disability, sickness or diagnosis every year.
We talk about stigma and mental health services or resources to help make us feel better. It's things like being denied the request of a weighted blanket or the request to see a nutritionist to help with how the PTSD has affected nutrition.
It's a lot of having to prove and prove again. It's not taken as believed or.... It's difficult to explain.