Debates of Jan. 20th, 1994

The Constitution

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Prime Minister.

Does the Prime Minister have any strategies, mechanisms or suggestions for this House to enable the constitutional concerns of the Bloc members to be addressed without allowing them to consume a disproportionate amount of the time and attention of this House?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is very simple. I cannot stop them from talking about separation. They have the freedom to do that.

I know very well that if members of the official opposition keep talking about separation and constitutional problems they are not living up to why they are here. The people in every riding of Quebec want all members of this House to work together to make sure that we have economic growth and job creation.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have one further supplementary question for the Prime Minister.

Does the Prime Minister envision some special role for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs in this area? Is its focus going to be primarily on Canada-Quebec relations or on relations with all provincial governments?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is charged to deal with all the provinces and to work to try to eliminate a lot of the duplication that exists between the two levels of government. He will deal with all the provinces because it is a concern right across Canada. That type of problem is not only in relation to the province of Quebec. It is with all the provinces. We would like to eliminate a lot of duplication.

When I met with the first ministers in December we went through a list of possible elimination of duplication. The minister is working very actively to make some progress in that field.

Manpower

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if the prime minister wants to speak on the economy, I remind him that yesterday the premier of Quebec, a true federalist as you well know, made an urgent call to his federal counterpart-

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member will ask his questions through the Speaker.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Yes, Mr. Speaker. You can blame it on my lack of experience.

So I ask my question through you to the prime minister. I remind him that yesterday the premier of Quebec, who is a true federalist and whom the prime minister knows well, made an urgent call to his federal counterpart to solve the issue of overlapping responsibilities in the manpower area. It was an urgent call.

Meanwhile, last Tuesday, his minister of Intergovernmental Affairs associated this agreement with the reform of all Canadian social programs.

Mr. Speaker, my question is as follows: How does the Prime Minister reconcile the urgency to act and the Quebec Premier's request and the gradual strategy of his Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we already discussed this problem with the Premier of Quebec. We would like to find a solution to this problem but it is a very complicated issue. Equalization is also involved, in that it depends on the needs of each part of Canada. Unfortunately, since the Atlantic provinces and Quebec have proportionately more unemployment than the rest of the country, they receive more money.

A way must be found to use federal funds to help unemployed people whom they want to train and to allocate these funds on the basis of regional needs. For this regional distribution, federal authority must be maintained; otherwise, if we simply transfer jurisdiction, the transfers will be made per capita and the province of Quebec will lose a lot.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Prime Minister. Is he willing to pledge right now that he will do his utmost to ensure that this issue is settled without delay, as the Quebec Premier has been requesting, in order to dispel the doubts cast by his Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, what matters is not to respond quickly but to take proper action,

and we are going to take all the time necessary to find the solution that will ensure that Quebec is not penalized. If we go for per capita transfers, Quebec will pay a hefty price to opt out of this federal program.

Non-Confidence Motions

[Daphne Jennings, Reform, Mission—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister.

Is today the day that the Prime Minister is to rise in his place and free the members of this Parliament to represent their constituents by declaring that the government will not consider the defeat of a government motion, including a spending measure, to constitute an expression of non-confidence in the government unless it is immediately followed by the passage of a formal non-confidence motion?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this House has had long standing rules of procedure which we follow. I think that it would be very easy, with the majority we have, to embark upon a process that would render the government not accountable for its decisions, but we also have to consider the consequences if, in a distant future, a minority government were to be elected to Parliament.

We have to keep in mind what would be the long term effect of such a proposition on this Parliament.

Some time ago we came a long way from that. I remember when we lost a vote in the House on the budget when Mitchell Sharp was the minister. Mr. Caouette who was a social creditist, the grandparents of the Reformers of today, made a proposition. He had managed to defeat a budgetary proposition and he said that it was not a defeat of the government. Through that good decision of Mr. Caouette's we remained in power and won the election a few months later.

[Daphne Jennings, Reform, Mission—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Prime Minister for his answer. I do bow to his expertise.

However I would wonder if the Prime Minister might explain to the Canadian people why he refuses to allow their MPs to represent them faithfully in Parliament.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this House is not a group of independents who have been elected on their own. We too are members of a party and we had a program.

The government is getting the program before the House and the red book will be implemented. All the promises we have made will be implemented. We stick together because we have the right policies.

National Revenue

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Revenue has announced that he has withdrawn the action he had brought against the government. Upon verification however, the Federal Court-Appeal Division docket seems to indicate that part of the case is still pending and will have to be heard on appeal.

Does the Minister agree that he is still in a conflict of interest position because of this action pending with regard to his travel expenses since his Cabinet colleague, the Minister of Justice, has to plead against him?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker-

[The Speaker]

It would seem that the question might be out of order. I would rule it out of order. It should be directed to the minister in charge of conflict of interest since it is a matter of law. Perhaps the member could rephrase it.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is a question for the Prime Minister to answer. I have been informed by the Minister of National Revenue that the minister has withdrawn his action.

Those are the instructions he has given his lawyer. Now, did the lawyer follow these instructions? I do not know. We will look into this. The minister clearly stated that he had instructed his lawyer to withdraw the action. Was the lawyer remiss or did he do his job? What I was told is that the minister had specifically requested that the case be discontinued.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the discontinuance order right here and it applies only to the cross-appeal. This means that there is still an appeal pending before the Federal Court.

I would like the Prime Minister to tell me: under his new code of ethics, is it appropriate that his Minister of National Revenue be in a position of conflict of interest, based on the facts I have just stated, which were verified no later than this morning by the Federal Court, or should he not choose between resigning his Cabinet seat and withdrawing his appeal?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that the hon. minister was in a conflict of interest situation at any time. As a citizen, the minister had rights

against the crown like anybody else. It so happens he had brought an action against the government, exercising a right we all have.

Any of us who risked sustaining damage or injury on federal property due to the negligence of a government employee would be entitled to sue the crown. Anybody, including me, any minister and the leader of the Opposition. But, to avoid controversy, the minister has decided to withdraw his appeal. If his counsel did not carry out these instructions-and if he is watching today, he can see that the minister of revenue agrees-he should have carried out his instructions to the letter.

Trade

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Trade.

A woman by the name of Shelley Anne Clark, who is an employee of the federal government, has publicly made serious accusations concerning the free trade agreement, including a statement that the actual text of the agreement has never been disclosed. She says that the real agreement contains terms which limit Canada's sovereignty over our resources.

On behalf of Canadians who have called me and other MPs to find out whether this is true, would the minister lay the matter to rest today by stating conclusively that the text of the free trade agreement which has been made public is in fact the true and complete agreement?

[Roy MacLaren, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, the allegations made by the Shelley Anne Clark were investigated by the previous government and found to be unwarranted. Our practices regarding privacy of information would preclude me from commenting any further on her allegations.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, could the minister state conclusively that the text of the agreement which has been made public is in fact the true and complete text? That is what people want to know.

[Roy MacLaren, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, the text made available by the previous government is, in my understanding, the actual text.

Tobacco Taxes

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Revenue. While the Liberal ministers have fun passing the buck on the cigarette smuggling issue, the Premier of Quebec has said once again that he intends to lower the tax to curb the problem.

Is the Minister prepared to acknowledge that one of the best ways of eliminating smuggling is by reducing the excessive tax? And how does the minister feel about the Quebec Premier's proposed course of action?