Debates of Jan. 31st, 1994

Social Programs

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Health for Canada I am very well aware of the responsibilities the provincial governments have in health matters.

Overall however we do remain responsible. We set the framework by which governments administer the health care system in this country. I think it is one of Canada's best assets. I believe

the strong, central federal health role is essential and very important in maintaining this wonderful system we have developed.

Pre-Budget Conferences

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. At the final pre-budget conference in Calgary this past Saturday the finance minister said: "The government cannot be expected to heed all advice".

Has the finance minister come to this conclusion because he does not like what he has heard, that deficit and debt is the major problem and not revenues?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, at these conferences, as would be expected, there were very different points of view, primarily because the institutes invited people not simply representing one very narrow point of view but all points of view. Obviously there were differences of opinion expressed on the panels and within the workshops. Therefore it would be impossible for anyone to square the circle and to simply do what everybody said.

What we did say very clearly was that we were listening, that we understood the common message, the common theme which is the desire to turn this economy around and give jobs back to the people. We said unequivocally that if we were not prepared to follow the suggestions made in any individual instance, we would indicate why that was the case because we take these consultations very, very seriously.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, having spent $800,000 on these conferences, is the finance minister now going to waste this money and go against those constructive alternatives offered and proceed by increasing the tax haul?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, with reference to the $800,000 let me say that the constitutional conferences put on by the previous government cost $7.5 million.

These conferences were put on by these institutes. Let me tell you the food we got was very good but it was not very expensive. Perhaps that is why the hon. member was not there.

[The Speaker]

Perhaps the hon. minister has given us all food for thought.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what really came out of these conferences was that Canadians with different perspectives sat down at the table. They were forced to make the kinds of trade-offs and have the kinds of discussions that governments and finance ministers have to go through.

The problem with private consultation, the kind that was done before, is that individuals come in and give a single perspective and then walk away, claiming they have made their point. However, they have never had to test it in debate with people from the other side. That was the great advantage which came out of this.

Tomorrow all members of this House are going to have the opportunity to present their views on this debate. I hope that the members will do what Canadians did and what they very clearly did in Calgary. I hope that they will simply not tell us to spend more in their area or to cut into somebody else's, but that they will make the trade-offs. If members of this House do what Canadians across the country did, then I will feel very good about the process tomorrow and very good about the budget we are going to present.

Indian Affairs

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence announced last week in this House that negotiations had been held with Chief Jerry Peltier with regard to the events in Kanesatake. After the minister changed his own version of the facts, Chief Jerry Peltier changed his accordingly, because he himself had confirmed to me that shots had indeed been fired at the aircraft dispatched to locate the source of the distress signal within the boundaries of the reserve.

My question is for the Minister of Indian Affairs. Has the Minister or his department been invited by the Minister of National Defence to take part in negotiations with Chef Jerry Peltier and the Kanesatake Band Council?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I was three days in Yukon. That was part of the negotiations between the Minister of National Defence and Mr. Peltier. I was aware of what was going on and was kept briefed. I am satisfied that the matter was handled amicably and we have reached an understanding that the skies of Canada belong to all Canadians.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Indian Affairs is happy with the agreement reached between Chief Jerry Peltier and National Defence, does he intend to extend its application to all reserves and territories here in Canada, for the benefit of all native peoples?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am repeating myself. It should be clear that Canadian skies are not up for negotiation. That is part of the Canadian umbrella. That is part of what we are talking about: self-government negotiations within one Canada.

I have said that the skies of Canada are open to all nations, all reserves and all Canadians. I cannot be any clearer than that.

Social Programs

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development and concerns his speech this morning.

In his speech, he received much applause from his caucus colleagues when he stated that his planned "redesign" of social policy is not a code word for "cutting costs".

Given that social programs take up the bulk of total program spending, how does the minister expect his government to reduce the deficit to 3 per cent of national income promised in the red book without cutting the costs of social spending?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should look at the entire speech. We set out a series of very specific objectives and goals that we wanted to achieve.

One is to achieve more effectiveness, more efficiency in the delivery of programs, to end duplication, to overcome a lot of overlap and to find better ways of delivering dollars to those who need them. Those are clear ways in which money can be saved but that is not the only objective.

The real objective and the real saving comes when we can get the three million Canadians who last year had to depend on some form of unemployment insurance or social security to find a good job, to have some hope and to have good training.

The real saving to Canada is when it makes full use of its human resources. That is when we will really have a saving. There is a bigger human deficit than a fiscal deficit in Canada today.

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat confused now by the minister's reply.

It was excellent rhetoric but did the hon. minister retract his earlier statement that there will be no cutting of costs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the hon. member that there is no contradiction. What we are saying very clearly is that if one takes a broad approach to these programs one can achieve a saving in the way we deliver them. One can achieve a saving by getting people back to work.

However, to do that one must invest in the people themselves. I would suggest that rather than simply cherry picking one point or other of the speech, I recommend that he read the entire speech. I am sure that he will find it really quite thrilling.

Job Creation

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the House Leader of the Government.

During the election campaign, Liberal candidates, invoking the red book, proposed various measures which they said were an action plan to create jobs and stimulate the economy. Now the third week of the session has begun without any legislative indication of the measures promised for this action plan.

My question is this: Since we are in the third week of the session, why has the government not yet proposed a single significant piece of legislation to give effect to the job creation provisions of the red book?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend forgets that even before the House opened we announced a massive national program of infrastructure to create tens of thousands of jobs across Canada.

I expect if my hon. friend keeps in touch with the situation he will see other measures put on the Order Paper before too long to carry out our commitment to get the economy going and create a lot more jobs for Canadians.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I expect an answer and not a filibuster.

After making this House into a vast sounding board of ideas in the past three weeks, what specific legislative menu does the government House leader intend to give us now?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I remind my hon. friend of the speech from the throne setting out a comprehensive program to put into effect in this session and over the ensuing session the commitments of the Liberal program of action.

If my hon. friend is as concerned as he says he is about these matters we can expect his immediate and complete support as we bring these measures before the House? Will he give that commitment to us today?

Immigration

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—Woodbine, ON]

Mr. Speaker, while 59,000 of the 250,000 immigrants entering Canada settled in Ontario, Ontario received only 39 per cent of the federal immigration funding for settlement and language training.

Provincial cuts to school boards is forcing them to cut programs including second language training programs, leaving immigrant children without proper education.

Can the minister of immigration tell the House how he intends to deal with this very serious inequity in our system?

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her question. We have made promises to work together with local and provincial governments and I am pleased to say this again is another promise we are keeping.

The minister responsible for immigration met this morning with the Ontario Minister of Citizenship and the Minister of Community and Social Services to discuss this issue. We are committed to enhanced co-operation and co-ordination between the two levels of government. We have to work together to use scarce resources more effectively.

We understand and share Ontario's concerns about settlement and immigration. We are certainly prepared to listen. This government has already introduced regulatory changes that will allow refugee claimants to work while awaiting the outcome of their claim, thus reducing the burden on social assistance.

The minister of immigration intends to review other provisions in co-operation with the provinces with a view to maximizing the benefits of immigration to our country while minimizing its costs.

Government Expenditure

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

The Liberal Red Book promised to balance increased spending for new programs with cuts to existing programs. To date, however, spending cuts through the elimination of the helicopter contract are much less than the announced spending increases in the following programs: $2 billion for the infrastructure program; $100 million for a residential rehabilitation assistance program; $100 million for the Canadian youth services corps; $5 million over four years toward the national literacy program and $900 million in equalization payments. These programs represent a spending increase of more than $3 billion yet the proposed cuts are far less than $2 billion.

Would the minister tell this House where this extra money will come from?

[An hon. member]

Increase taxes.

[David Collenette, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

You should read the Red Book.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite lists the items in the Red Book with the same degree of pride that we on this side of the House and all Canadians do.

Suffice it to say that the statement we made, that the items listed will be paid for through reallocation of existing spending will be met and the member opposite will see that in my budget.