Debates of Oct. 18th, 1994

Hibernia Project

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, a minute ago I explained something very simple to the member. There was a lot of investment in that and some of these projects have not produced the results anticipated. It happens like that many times.

At the moment we have invested millions of dollars in that project. The project is scheduled to start producing oil in three years and will be an available resource to be sold abroad or for Canadians to use in Canada.

It would be stupid to stop the project at this time because we would lose the benefits that would come from it. I must tell the hon. member that a lot of the work on the project is being done in Quebec at the moment.

Health Care Forum

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the health minister has sent out invitations to the provincial health ministers to her health care forum. There has been no response. The Prime Minister invited the premiers to the same forum and received the same answer.

Just to be sure I called the health ministers. Guess what? They are really not coming.

When will the health minister get it that the most important players do not want any part of this $12 million boondoggle?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we were committed in the red book to having a forum of that nature. We kept our word. When we introduced the project members of the opposition said that we had to invite some people from the provinces.

The minister negotiated with them. At the beginning they asked to have several representatives. We said that was fine. After that they wanted to have as many as ten. We said that was fine. Some said some premiers would like to be there, that we should let them come. We said yes, yes and yes. If they do not come we are back to square one.

We began with no invitations. We have now invited them and they are not coming. We will just do what we said we would do in the red book, that is consult with the people and maintain good medicare in Canada.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the provinces pay 48 per cent of health care bills. Private sources pay 28 per cent and the junior partner, the federal government, pays 23 per cent. Why would the major payer accept being a minor player?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if we have medicare in Canada today it is because there was a federal government that took the initiative to have medicare. The fathers and mothers of the program want to keep it.

National Forum On Health

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in a last-ditch effort to convince the provinces to participate in the National Forum on Health, the Prime Minister has written to his provincial counterparts inviting them to attend on a consultative basis. The Minister of Health sent a similar invitation to her provincial counterparts but never received any answers.

How can the government persist in trying to hold its National Forum on Health when it is so obvious that the provinces do not wish to participate in that forum in its present form?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this is a consultation exercise involving experts as well as other stakeholders. We asked the provinces to make suggestions and we welcomed their proposals. The forum is not a decision-making body. Its purpose is to look at the issue and make recommendations. This exercise is not binding on the federal government nor on the provinces. There are other initiatives involving the provinces, such as the meeting of federal and provincial health ministers.

Again, this is not a federal-provincial program: it is a consultation exercise to get ideas from Canadians. I will not make any decisions; I will simply preside and listen. I invited these people to discuss the issue. I will not be making speeches. I will take note of suggestions made. We will try to take those into account to ensure that health-related costs in Canada do not become prohibitive and to maintain a free health care program for all Canadians.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at a time when the government is looking for ways to eliminate wasting, does the Prime Minister realize that, in the absence of the provinces, the National Forum on Health will be a totally futile exercise which will cost over $12 million to Canadian taxpayers?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have the support of all intermediary organizations involved, including the Canadian Hospital Association, the Canadian Medical Association and others, because they realize that in order to have a national plan, we must establish national standards. Also, what works in one province could be used successfully by another. It is our role to find the best possible solutions and discuss them with the provinces. It will then be up to them to adopt or reject these solutions. This is how we intend to proceed.

Via Rail

[Warren Allmand, Liberal, Notre-Dame-De-Grâce, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.

Last Friday when VIA Rail announced that it was cutting another 478 jobs, half of them being in Montreal, it stated that it would be done without a cut in service.

Would the minister please explain how VIA can cut 478 jobs and not reduce service to the public? Why is VIA still pursuing a downsizing policy introduced by the Conservative government in 1993?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, VIA is approaching the problems it is facing in the same way as the government. We have problems in operating a service in the country that loses over $300 million a year and is

supported by taxpayers. The cuts that were announced by and large were about 50:50 as between administrative positions and operating positions.

The hon. member would know, because he has a very definite interest in it, that we are trying to do everything we can to maintain levels of service across the country. It is true that we have made cuts to VIA with respect to personnel. There have been no cuts or even requests put before us for eliminating any of the routes.

We still have another area to look at, that is what happens with the ongoing labour negotiations at VIA. The commitment of the government is to try to maintain services coast to coast with VIA but also to protect the owner of VIA who happens to be the Canadian taxpayer.

Public Accounts Of Canada

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Public Accounts of Canada were tabled today. The Minister of Finance included in his 1994 deficit prediction half a billion dollars for the resource allowance tax fiasco. We now find that one of the reasons the 1994 deficit is lower than the minister's original prediction is that the cost of that tax boondoggle was added to the previous year's deficit.

When will the government come clean with the Canadian public and make real, and I mean real, cuts to the deficit rather than use smoke and mirrors to make us think that progress is being made?

[Doug Peters, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to answer the question because we have made real cuts. We made real cuts in our budget of February. We took $5 of spending cuts for every dollar in taxes. They were real cuts and we will meet our deficit target.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps we should debate real cuts. The government did not stop there. It changed the 1993 accounts to make the 1994 accounts look good. The government reduced the 1993 deficit by $569 million. It reduced the 1995 projected deficit by $200 million due to accounting changes, and there is not one penny of savings to the Canadian taxpayer.

What is the reduction in the 1994 deficit that will be dumped on the Canadian taxpayer's lap in coming years by accounting changes that are supposed to be deficit reductions?

[Doug Peters, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, I find it rather interesting the Reform Party again and again quotes Auditor General's reports. Again and again it brings these things up and calls them mere accounting changes. These are accounting changes ordered by the Auditor General.

Intergovernmental Affairs

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

While visiting the riding of Saint-Jean, the Quebec Premier announced that Ottawa and Quebec were back to square one regarding the Collège militaire de Saint-Jean, since the agreement in principle between Ottawa and the previous government had not been followed by the operating agreement which was supposed to be signed no later than August 31, 1994.

Is the minister going to confirm that the operating agreement, which was supposed to be concluded no later than August 31, has in fact never been signed and that he must start negotiating with the new Quebec government all over again?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we reached an agreement with the Quebec government. It is dated July 19. It is signed by Mr. Chagnon, the then education minister, by myself and by Daniel Johnson.

This general agreement is still in force. This agreement benefits people in the area by keeping the Collège de Saint-Jean open with a military presence and students coming from the Quebec education system. It would be a great pity if the Quebec government were to indicate now that it does not want to abide by the terms of the general agreement, but I do hope that it will not do so.

Some matters were still to be settled, such as the list of equipment the federal government was to hand over to the provincial government. Obviously, these are still open to discussion. But as far as the agreement is concerned, it is in place and it benefits the area.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if I understand correctly, there are still a few contentious issues left. The Bloc would like to make a suggestion. Given the fact that it is increasingly obvious that Kingston College will not be able to accommodate all student officers, is the government going to finally cancel its illogical decision to close the Collège militaire de Saint-Jean?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as reported in the media, a previous Solicitor General authorized Grant Bristow to attend neo-Nazi rallies and meetings in Germany. However, CSIS and the previous administration did not believe it was necessary to inform the German government of Bristow's attendance.

Has the Solicitor General been provided with an explanation of why the Germans were not informed, and has he accepted this explanation?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, this is a matter, as the hon. member says, that relates to the previous government.

I have sought assurances that the appropriate directives will be followed if any similar occasion arose. In any event, I am also informed that this is a matter which will be commented on by the Security Intelligence Review Committee in the report it is preparing.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am a little concerned that all of this is all inclusive in the SIRC report. They may not get that report out before the end of the year.

However, I am pleased that the minister has assured us that this sort of thing will not happen again. I ask if he has given the Germans an indication of Grant Bristow's involvement and a report of the activities.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, neither myself nor CSIS has confirmed that Grant Bristow is an individual who is involved in these matters. The matters in question, as reported last night, relate to events that happened several years ago.

If I am contacted by the German authorities I will be happy to give them assurances that will be appropriate in the circumstances.

The Environment

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment.

In 1987 the Brundtland commission concluded that the wilderness areas in the world today must at least triple if we are to protect plant and animal species and preserve biodiversity on this planet. What action is Canada taking to increase our protected wilderness areas and what role is Canada playing in the global protection of wilderness areas?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for the question and point out that the latest report of Statistics Canada said that 9 per cent of Canada's land was set aside as wilderness. It is short of our goal but certainly moving in the right direction.

We intend in the next few weeks to enact the Canadian biodiversity strategy. We will use this strategy, along with our strategy on expanding wilderness areas, to make sure that Canada is among the first signatories not only to the biodiversity strategy but also among the countries that actually put the strategy in place, working together with the provinces as we will do at the CCME meeting in November.