Debates of Oct. 18th, 1994

Criminal Code

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, we agree but there might be some on the government side who might want to change their minds.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Accordingly I declare the motion adopted.

(Bill read the second time and referred to committee.)

Remembrance Day Act

[Ron MacDonald, Liberal, Dartmouth, NS]

moved that Bill C-251, an act to provide that Remembrance Day be included as a holiday in public service collective agreements, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Madam Speaker, I know the hour is late and we have just been through a number of votes but I am hoping that the members who are still here, or those that are watching from their offices or on their way to their offices, could take a few minutes to pay some attention to the bill presently before the House.

This is actually the second time that I have brought the bill forward. I presented the bill in the last Parliament as Bill C-289. The title of the bill is the Remembrance Day Act.

One of the problems we have had in the past in dealing with Remembrance Day is that the farther we get from the time that we have actually had a conflict where loss of life has taken place, the more likely it is that we will forget the sacrifices that were made by the many men and now women of the Canadian Armed Forces in the pursuit of liberty and freedom for people all around the globe.

Remembrance Day goes back quite far. It used to be called Armistice Day and it was celebrated at Thanksgiving. Then around 1931, it became Remembrance Day. Everybody in the country believes that Remembrance Day is a holiday and I guess by definition that is what it is.

What exactly holiday means is quite another thing. Does holiday mean, as I used to think it meant, that it is a day set aside and nobody, unless they are deemed to be an essential employee, goes to work? Does holiday mean that it is time to go to the beach or to take a few hours off and relax?

The Remembrance Day holiday is quite different. It is different than any other holiday on the books. It is different because it is not meant as a time for people to take time off. It is meant as a time of solemn remembrance of those who fought for liberty, for freedom, for those who have given up their lives in pursuit of these very noble goals.

Every member in this Chamber represents veterans. In Canada today there are over 700,000 veterans, many of whom were wounded, many of whom have lost very good friends. They saw their best friend die in front of them far away in a foreign land with no shoulder to cry on. It was done in the pursuit of that tangible called freedom.

It seems the further we get away from the date of a conflict where lives are lost, we forget. It is far too easy for me as a 39-year-old and certainly for my children who are three, eight and ten to forget how important that contribution has been for us.

I introduced Bill C-289 in the last Parliament. The importance of that bill at the time was to make sure that at least in the area that we control as a government in the agreements that are entered into under the Public Service Staff Relations Act, we ensure that we honour the memory of those who have given their lives and of the veterans who are still are out there, many of whom have been wounded.

There are people like my father, Sharkey, as they called him because he was a good boxer in his day, who was shot twice. He fought in the Italian campaign after the liberation of Holland, and lost many of his friends. The bill will ensure that my children see the example set by the federal government in ensuring that every collective agreement that is entered into by the Government of Canada, that this holiday, this special time of remembrance, is not traded away.

Members are going to ask: "Is that not the way it is?" Yes, that is the way it is. The reason I introduced the bill two years ago and the reason I reintroduced it is that there seems to be a possibility-and if it is a possibility, it is a probability-the federal government negotiators through Treasury Board-it is no different even though the government has changed-with the same mandate who hammer out collective agreements may change the holiday. I support the collective bargaining process.

However there may come a time, because it always happens, that the federal government through its Treasury Board negotiators and a union of the Public Service of Canada through its negotiators will decide to trade away Remembrance Day for another holiday. It darned near happened two years ago at Canada Post.

That is when this came to my attention. My father who is a veteran, president of the Cape Breton Highlanders Association,

called me and said: "What am I reading in the paper? They are trying to trade Remembrance Day away, maybe for an extra benefit, maybe for a little bit more hospital coverage". That was never the purpose of the holiday in the first place.

I introduced the bill and it received an unusual amount of support, so much so that the Conservative government, even though Treasury Board told Tory members not to support it, rose above partisanship and supported the bill in sufficient numbers that even a lowly Liberal backbench opposition member's private member's motion passed at second reading.

It was one of the proudest days I have had as a member of Parliament. It showed that this place can work. If the principles are noble, the motives of members will be above reproach and they will support the right things. Unfortunately it did not get through committee.

Therefore I introduce it again today in honour of the 60,000 men who died serving our country in the first world war and all those who died during the second world war. Over 1.1 million Canadians served proudly, people like my father. During the Korean war over 300 Canadians gave their lives and hundreds, perhaps over 1,000, more were wounded. We must not forget those who served in the Persian gulf-thank goodness there was no loss of life-and our peacekeepers who are out there in some of the worst conditions in the world. They are down in the hell on earth that is Rwanda. They serve us proudly in Bosnia, where some have been injured and killed while serving our country abroad.

I reintroduce the bill and I seek support from members. This bill will not encumber Treasury Board. That is bogus. I heard that argument from Treasury Board officials. Tomorrow I will try to get some assurance from the minister that before decisions are made about what does and does not encumber Treasury Board that they at least consult with the members who put the bills forward.

The bill does nothing more than seek to entrench in law the current practice and that is to make sure that Remembrance Day is a holiday in federal collective agreements. It does not do anything to the business community. It does not do anything to collective agreements under the labour code. It simply says that for agreements entered into by the federal government with its own employees, under the Public Service Staff Relations Act, that unless one is a designated employee whose services are essential, one shall have Remembrance Day as a day of solemn remembrance for those men and now women who have been injured or killed defending peace, liberty and life abroad for our country, and that day will always be in federal public sector agreements as a day of solemn remembrance.

I ask the members who are prepared to speak to keep that in mind. When we last raised this in the House I could not believe the response from nearly every legion in Canada. The president of the Royal Canadian Legion came to see me. Letters were sent in. Veterans from the second world war feel as they are getting older that it is far too easy for their grandchildren and maybe their great grandchildren to forget the sacrifices that many of them have made.

I am seeking the support of the House to debate this bill. It will tell the veterans across Canada that the contribution that they made for this country and also what they gave up, is not going to be forgotten by the Parliament of Canada. It is a very small thing to do. Remembrance Day must always be held as a solemn day of remembrance for those who have gone before us in serving their country.

[Maurice Godin, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today on behalf of the Official Opposition in this debate on the bill that would include Remembrance Day as a holiday in public service collective agreements.

This is not the first time that the member for Dartmouth has proposed such a thing. Indeed, he presented a similar bill in the previous Parliament. Unfortunately for him, the Conservative government arranged to defeat his bill when it was considered in committee. That was on February 18, 1993.

That bill, like the one before us, was intended to prevent the government from putting the Remembrance Day holiday on the negotiating table with the unions. It was feared that this holiday would be traded for an extra day after the Boxing Day holiday.

Some guarantee had to be provided to enshrine this sacred holiday in our collective memory. This is the day when we remember the ultimate sacrifice made by those who went to war and enabled us to enjoy again the most precious gift: peace.

This initiative reflects numerous decisions made over the years to that effect. This holiday is already in the official list of holidays included in section 166 of the Canada Labour Code, part III. It is also included in the Public Service Terms and Conditions of Employment Regulations. Every collective agreement signed by the Public Service Alliance of Canada with Treasury Board includes Remembrance Day in the list of holidays.

Already in 1921, a day of commemoration was established in the Armistice Day Act, which said, and I quote: "Throughout Canada in each and every year-the eleventh day of November-being the day in 1918 in which the great war was triumphantly concluded by an armistice, shall be a legal holiday and shall be kept and observed as such under the name of Armistice Day".

In 1931, another act specified that this legal holiday would be called "Remembrance Day" and would be observed on November 11. In the Holidays Act, chapter H-5, Revised Status of Canada, 1985, Remembrance Day is the second holiday mentioned, right after Canada Day.

One might wonder why have a bill to protect a holiday which already seems to be formally recognized. The purpose of this legislation is to eliminate the risk that this holiday might be used as a bargaining tool and be replaced by an additional day elsewhere in the calendar, a measure which would be at odds with the purpose of Remembrance Day, which is meant to be a day of commemoration and respect.

The fact is that such a substitution is a possibility. There is a provision in section 195 of the Canada Labour Code which says that "Any other holiday may be substituted for a general holiday". Consequently, this substitution is a right which can be exercised or claimed. According to section 195, the parties to a collective agreement can notify in writing the Minister of Human Resources Development that a specified day has been designated as a holiday in lieu of a specified general holiday. Under the same section of the Canada Labour Code, where no employees of an employer are represented by a trade union or where a class of employees is not provided for under a collective agreement with regard to general holidays, the Minister may approve the substitution of a designated holiday, at the request of the employer, if satisfied that a majority of the employees or class of employees concur with the application.

This goes to show that such provisions do exist and continue to exist, unaltered, without excluding holidays like Remembrance Day. We therefore take this opportunity to caution the sponsor of this bill. This piece of legislation would give a clear indication to the government. It would send a clear message to labour, but it would not eliminate the present loopholes that allow the substitution of general holidays and are likely to continue to allow it after this bill is passed.

We know how important the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month is since 1918. It is important not only for the veterans for whom this day represents the quintessence of their existence, for the soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice in order to restore the world peace we now know, for the civil servants and the workers, but also for the children, the future generations who need tools to remember all the lessons passed down to them, from the most marvellous to the most tragic. We must protect the Remembrance Day to preserve our collective memories, pay tribute to the past and accept responsibility for the future.

I am convinced that the government as well as the unions and the citizens realize the importance of the Remembrance Day, a day to pay tribute to our veterans, to remember the horrible lessons the war has taught us, and to pass on a message to future generations.

In brief, we support this bill in principle. We hope that the Remembrance Day will never be abolished, moved or replaced and that, in order to achieve this goal, all current federal labour legislation will be modified accordingly.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to speak on this motion. I, too, have lost relatives, in fact close relatives, due to these tragic wars. It has always been in my heart to make certain that these memories are not forgotten.

We have before us Bill C-251 to provide that Remembrance Day be included as a holiday in public service collective agreements. This bill asks that Parliament negotiate on behalf of the public service.

Parliament should never be involved in negotiating contracts for the public service or any other union. Bargaining is the role of union officials, union employees and union bargaining teams, not members of the House of Parliament. It is my understanding that the public service has already bargained for its workers to observe Remembrance Day as a holiday. Why then is this bill before Parliament?

It seems that under the current negotiated contracts that workers deemed essential for the public safety or public interest must work on Remembrance Day but do not receive extra remuneration. Essentially this bill will provide extra payment for those deemed essential or required to work for the public safety.

Let us think for a moment why it is that we pause at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month to remember: Lest we forget the sons and the daughters of Canadians in the time of the country's greatest need who chose to travel to foreign lands and defend this country against tyranny and dictatorship. Lest we forget many of the sons and daughters who did not return to the arms of their loved ones following the long, long journey to fight for democracy and freedom, yet they ensured that the same highest qualities remained in our government. Lest we forget thousands upon thousands of Canadians who offered up the ultimate sacrifice, their lives, so that we at home could remain free to choose how we should live our lives.

I have heard tales of the carnage of war. I have listened to veterans of the wars talk about their time over there. Not too often do these men and women talk about the battles over there. They talk about the times that bring fond memories, the detailed preparations for battle, the training for battle, or the nights of quiet reflection remembering home.

The reason those who faced the horrors of battle do not talk of seeing friends or comrades in arms who entered the fray but did not return is because of the pain that such recollections would bring.

Those of us who have not experienced total war do not really understand the cost in human lives and human memories that such conflicts inflict. Those veterans of such times recall the horror, and believe me, none I know of say that those times were filled with glory.

Veterans ask us all to remember those who gave their lives for our freedom because they want Canadians to recall the total price that war brings. Veterans want those living today to remember total war costs. The cost is lives.

No one in this House would dare ask Canadians to not honour the memory of those who offered the supreme sacrifice, their young lives, so that we today can stand on Remembrance Day to thank and remember them.

By not supporting this bill, I do not make light of the sacrifice. None of those who died sought death. They were seeking to give life to this country and in doing so they died.

I cannot support this bill, not because I do not believe we should not remember them but because I believe this House should not diminish the freedom of workers and management to choose on what terms they will agree to work together.

As for the portion of this bill that will make it mandatory for those required to work on Remembrance Day to receive extra remuneration, I say this. If those we are remembering could freely choose to give the ultimate sacrifice so Canadians can be free, surely Canadian workers can freely choose to work on Remembrance Day without complaining about extra money.

Our young of years gone by were prepared to travel across the sea, live in mudholes and dwell in the cold and damp to preserve our freedom. They chose to do that. Surely it is not too much to ask those required for public safety or essential services in these times of peace to do so without thinking of their paycheques.

Members of this House must never allow the memory of our young men and women who died so we may be free to diminish in this land. We must honour them so we will continually recall the price we must pay when we involve this country and our young in war. Surely we can remember them without a bill that essentially removes a freedom they fought for, the freedom to negotiate working conditions. Surely those who are needed to labour on Remembrance Day can do so without demanding extra pay.

Our young of the past died so we could be free. Our young of the present can pause at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month to remember those who died and why we must remember that war has a price.

Surely that price is more than time and a half on a paycheque and that price is more than removing one freedom from those who fought and died for our many freedoms.

[Roger Gallaway, Liberal, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-251 has in this House a history which today I would suggest we have a chance to rewrite, not in the sense of being revisionist historians but rewrite perhaps out of a sense of duty.

On May 20 of last year this bill died in this Chamber-it was known as C-289 at that time-because of many factors, the principal of which was somewhat of a disagreement among and between parties and interest groups. That is, I would suggest, tragic because an act of remembrance is not a political or partisan fact.

We have seen in this same House in the past several months debates concerning the role of Canada in its military and peacekeeping. Although we as a country are not necessarily one of the major military leaders globally, we have garnered much respect internationally because of the extreme competence of our personnel and their effectiveness on these missions.

I really should ask the question: Why have we for many years been sending soldiers and our armed forces everywhere in the world? I think the response is quite simple. It is simply because in this country there is a belief that we Canadians should try to look for and from time to time make peace.

I believe that Canadians share a common set of beliefs, attitudes and values and that one of these elementary or core principles is our role as makers of peace on this globe. Surely I do not need to tell those present in this place of the hundreds of thousands of lives lost in this century.

These were lives that were freely given because we as a country believed that it was a basic value shared in this country and the importance of our place in the world order. Of course, those who contributed the most are not here to ask us as a national collective to remember them.

Next year, 1995, will mark the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II and one would expect and undoubtedly there will be many national and international ceremonies to mark the end of the war. One obvious conclusion to be seen at these ceremonies is the fragility, the aging process, of those who were directly involved.

Wars or armed conflicts always operate on two distinct levels. On an individual basis it has a profound effect on those who

were directly involved. Today the veterans of World War II in this country are on average in their seventies and are declining rapidly in number. That unfortunately is a simple fact of life.

There is a second level to this. Wars have affected and moulded national identities and impressed, which is surely the case in this country, and reinforced the attitudes and values in our dealings with other sovereign states.

In Canada there is no doubt a realization that we as a country became an international entity and acquired a national conscience and identity because of our role in the major conflicts in the first half of this century; conflicts in which, unfortunately, the youth of this country fueled our endeavours. Today we do virtually nothing as a country or on a national basis to recognize the importance of the sacrifices made.

I know that this bill has reached the point of national consensus from a provincial perspective. There are a number of individuals in this country who are vitally interested in this bill.

One principal proponents of this bill is a lady by the name of Mrs. Wilma McNeil, to whom I spoke this afternoon. She has written to all ten premiers. The responses have been unanimous in support.

It is interesting to note and to put on the record here today that at least one premier in this country believed and put it in writing to her that he thought it was some sort of a holiday already. He did not realize the lack of the role of the federal government in this day.

Mrs. McNeil has also waged an information war to advise veterans organizations in this country about this bill. These groups, the core of which represent those who survived the war, have unanimously endorsed this bill.

Finally, I am speaking here today in support of this because I think it is an opportunity for the government and for members of Parliament to recognize the importance of this, not only on an individual basis because that will fade with time, but we as a national collective, as a country, recognize that this represents a day which has great importance to the national attitude and belief and, most important, the national values of this country.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in addressing Bill C-251, members will recall that this same bill was introduced by the same member three years ago. It was designated a votable item at that time and it passed first and second reading and was referred to committee. The committee voted against the bill four to three, even after appearances from the army, navy and air force veterans and the Treasury Board. After that the bill was returned to the House and eventually dropped from the order paper.

It seems that the subject of this bill has already been carefully considered and the substance of it rejected by the House. With so many other priorities in the House of Commons and so many other good private members' bills that have never seen the light of day, I am perhaps not all that surprised to see that this bill has come back to the House.

Why would the committee choose this particular bill and this particular topic unless it somehow intends to choose bills that have been rehashed or bills of little import, unless it intends to make the business of Private Members' Business even less relevant than it is already?

Perhaps the committee choosing these bills is trying to deflect the political troubles that inevitably arise when this House considers weighty topics that are truly relevant to the issues of the day.

We must not avoid talking about the things that Canadians are talking about. The direction of this government should be put into reverse by tackling the tough issues first instead of putting off the repairs until tomorrow, wall papering over the cracks and ignoring the holes in the ceiling of Canada's national House.

On to Remembrance Day in this particular bill, it appears to me that this bill really is redundant because in many ways the matter is already entrenched in federal legislation. Canada's labour code lists Remembrance Day as a general holiday. It is also included in the regulations attached to the Financial Administration Act and the Federal Holidays Act lists it as one of three national holidays.

If Remembrance Day were the subject of much dispute it might be different. If hundreds of thousands of public servants were not already receiving Remembrance Day as a holiday I might be more inclined to agree that the heavy hand of legislation must be applied to this matter.

This is not the case and on the contrary allow me to quote from article 12 of the master agreement between the federal government and the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada a union representing about 31,000 federal employees: "The following days shall be designated paid holidays for employees: New Years Day, Good Friday, Easter Monday, the Sovereign's birthday, Canada Day, Labour Day, Thanksgiving and Remembrance Day". The list goes on.

This is a voluntary agreement arrived at in a consensual manner between 31,000 federal public servants and the Government of Canada. The master agreement already designates Remembrance Day as a paid holiday.

There is even a more sweeping document that says the same thing. It is the master agreement between the Public Service Alliance of Canada and the government representing another total of 170,000 federal public servants. It too designates Remembrance Day as a paid holiday.

It is clear that I must oppose this legislation for a number of reasons. The first reason is that it is not necessary. Treasury Board tells me that a grand total of 382,000 federal employees already stay home on November 11, receiving time and a half pay, giving them the opportunity to consider the tremendous price that was once paid by so many courageous Canadians.

This bill must also be opposed because from a Reform Party point of view we believe there should be a minimal involvement by the state in these types of matters. The state should not be legislating on matters that can be negotiated voluntarily between parties. This of course has been a problem with Canadian governments for far too long.

The government needs to become involved where there are clear practices of obvious abuse but we can see from the master agreements I have quoted from that the government has been very generous to give the day off even when many private sector workers do not receive Remembrance Day as a holiday.

Do you know the costs to the taxpayer of this part of the agreement, Mr. Speaker? The Treasury Board estimates it at $50 million to $75 million for this one day's pay.

We have already paid a big price for Remembrance Day observances. Obviously there is no need whatsoever for government involvement in this case.

That leads naturally to the second reason for my opposition to Bill C-251. Why should the federal public service have another holiday entrenched in law when the private sector does not? If the member for Dartmouth really thought that Remembrance Day was important enough to be included in collective agreements why stop at the public sector? Why not extend this bill to include the private sector?

Perhaps he does not realize what he is doing, that he is unwittingly offering a special privilege to the public sector toward enlarging the benefits and powers enjoyed by governments and government workers.

I would ask the member also to consider an unfortunate side effect to this bill which is to unconsciously deepen the wedge between private and public sectors. While the private sector has already weathered the storms of recession, while it has experienced massive layoffs and is now leaner than ever before, the member for Dartmouth would entrench public service benefits even more deeply than they are already. In essence he would further secure the isolation of public servants from our devastating fiscal problems, problems that may one day bring this government crashing down.

We have a public service that is respected worldwide. Our public service is the equal of any and as much as we might like to shield our public servants from decades of indulgent spending by federal governments, the chickens are proverbially coming home to roost.

Yesterday the finance minister could do nothing but crow about the debt and deficit and warn that government services and programs and yes, even jobs, must tumble in the coming months. This is the third reason I oppose the bill. It is not financially possible to guarantee the benefits that public servants have now, much less offer them more security and more insulation and isolation from what is happening in the real world.

The final reason for my opposition to this piece of legislation is more broadly philosophical. A collective agreement is by definition an agreement between two parties. This implies a process of negotiation in which items are traded back and forth until both sides agree on an acceptable package of items they can both live with. It is a process of mutual compromise.

When the government begins to legislate more and more elements of collective agreements it puts both parties at a distinct disadvantage because it reduces the number of possible compromises that can be made by either party. This makes agreements harder to negotiate. It is sort of like trying to sell a car with a precondition that the buyer must be willing to pick the car up in another city. It makes the sale much harder to negotiate when some of the terms are set beforehand.

I would remind members that the president of the Public Service Alliance of Canada has mentioned that it might be possible that all holidays will be subject to negotiation between parties in the months ahead. I wonder if even the union representing our federal workers would support this type of legislation.

My opposition to this legislation has nothing to do with Remembrance Day. It has nothing to do with the respect and gratitude I feel for those who sacrificed so much to bring me and my generation peace and prosperity. I guess I would be called one of the baby boomer generation and I have never experienced the agonies of war. However, I am not that far removed, even from World War II.

My father joined the air force during the war. Allow me to read from a book written about my father entitled A Canadian Story : On October 26, 1943 he went to the number six recruitment centre in Winnipeg to enlist and when he arrived he was informed that he could indeed sign up but that anyone under the age of 18 had to have his parents' permission. Bill'', my father's name,took the necessary form, walked outside the building, forged his mother's signature and went back in''.

My dad was just a 17-year old kid but he was willing to do just about anything to do his part for the country. He served with the air force for two years even here in Ottawa: "On October 9, 1945 Bill was discharged from the air force. His two years in the

service of the king was similar to that of many other young men. He had volunteered to serve his country when it needed him, as did millions of others".

I am not untouched by the war and I am not untouched by the sacrifice of people like my father. In the end, he only had to spend two years of his life in this cause, but he was willing to lay down his entire life if that is what his country asked of him. I can only hope that if, God forbid, the necessity arises again, I would be willing to do as much to serve my own country.

Remembrance Day is a vital reminder of the price Canadians paid for the things we hold dear and let us hope that Canadians in both the private and public sectors, in homes and in businesses, in their personal and public statements will remember the sacrifices made by our ancestors.

Legislating additional public service holidays is both unwise and unnecessary in order that they may be remembered.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on Bill C-251, this piece of legislation.

I want to commend my colleague for having brought it forth. I want to correct a couple of things. First of all, this is now a recognized holiday in the collective agreement. It can float. That is the issue. The point about an extra $50 million to $70 million is totally erroneous. One could counteract by pointing out that if it is worth that much in a collective agreement it could be traded off.

What my colleague is seeking to do is make absolutely certain that it is a holiday on that day. Why is that? It is because of the sacrifice of the soldiers and their families and their supporters. Because of their sacrifice, we want to set this day aside to make absolutely certain that we remember what they contributed to this nation, the freedom that we have today, the greatest gift apart from health that anyone could possibly have. Because of their sacrifice we have one of the finest, if not the finest, nations in the world. We started with a real head start because this is a wonderful country, but when we think of what they have contributed to the very fabric of the nation surely we can set a day aside throughout the nation to remember what they have contributed.

Unfortunately we take what we have for granted. I remember going to church services where the pastor indicated that we take our good health for granted until we start losing it. Then we suddenly we start to remember how important it is.

We take our freedoms for granted. We take the greatness of the country for granted. We take this wonderful, magnificent country of ours too much for granted. We have to stop and reflect, to think, and to say thank you. That is what we want to say. We want to say thank you to our soldiers. We want to say thank you to their families. We want to say thank you to those who supported them. That is what this is all about.

We want to set a day aside to remember the wars, remember the destructiveness of wars, and remember that war should be passé. We want to remember those who died. We want to remember those who were wounded. We want to remember those who came back but who have passed on. We want to make sure that we do not forget their sacrifice, their tremendous contribution to the country, this free country.

My hon. colleague wishes to have this day set aside in memory of the sacrifices made by our soldiers, their families and those who supported them. We want to remember the wars. We want to remember those who died on the battlefields. We want to remember those who were wounded and those who came back, but have since passed on. We want to remember their contribution to our country, to what is probably the most beautiful and perhaps the best country in the world. We want to remember that they gave us a country where we can live in freedom.

That is really all I really wanted to say. This is an important initiative. This is an initiative that we should all be supporting. This is not an initiative that should be somehow shunted aside because of supposed costs. There are no costs. We simply ask that we set a day aside that is consistent throughout Canada so that we can remember those who served.

[Harold Culbert, Liberal, Carleton—Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak on Bill C-251 this evening in the House. The bill will ensure that Remembrance Day is respected by public servants in the way that it was intended. For this reason I fully support the hon. member's bill and would like to commend him on bringing it forward.

Remembrance Day is much more than a holiday or a day off during the longer days of fall. It was introduced into our country as a day to do just that: to remember, to remember those who gave their lives so that we the people who stand before you today, Mr. Speaker, would be able to enjoy the freedoms we now have. It is to remember those who fought, those who made the supreme sacrifice with their lives, and those who sacrificed here at home during the two world wars and in Korea. It is to remember, simply so that we will not forget the sacrifices that touched so many Canadian families.

Children growing up today have no recollection of the sufferings that took place during those times of strife. To them it is another story in our history books. The recognition of Remembrance Day sparks questions in these children and in turn they will become informed. In this way the sacrifices and the

tragedies will never be forgotten, for it is when we forget that history repeats itself.

Remembrance Day has always been and should always be recognized on November 11. As it now stands the day can be used as a bargaining chip to obtain an extra day off at some other time of the year. Remembrance Day was not intended to be part of a lengthened festive season. It is a time to be solemn, to remember, to respect, and not to rejoice.

Of course there are exceptions in the bill for those people who provide services that are essential to public safety or interest. These people will naturally have to work on this day and will be compensated appropriately. However in general Canadians should not be required to work. The country must hold on to those things that are most important to our history, not put them aside as if they belong to another era. We must teach our children it is important to respect those who died, fought and sacrificed so that we would be able to stand in front of the House today to debate the issue.

In my constituency of Carleton-Charlotte there are many veterans and many families of veterans who gave their all, in many cases loved ones who gave their lives, so that we might enjoy our Canadian freedoms. I shudder to think what might have happened to our world without their sacrifices.

I urge all members of the House to think of future generations and what will happen if we are allowed to forget.

[John Richardson, Liberal, Perth—Wellington—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to participate in the debate and to pay tribute, as have past speakers who are either for or against the concept of Remembrance Day.

I had the opportunity to follow my father to Europe in the early 1950s when the Canadians went over and I saw the devastation in the countryside. I spent a lot of my younger life serving in the NATO forces. Nothing can teach like visiting a graveyard with the headstones of 5,000 to 10,000 soldiers. I refer to the second previous speaker who mentioned his father joining at 18 years of age. I went into Beny-sur-Mer and saw 19 and 20 year old sergeants; they hardly let them lead a section today. These young people gave their lives. I saw their graves for miles.

Nothing struck me more than when I went to Vimy Ridge and saw the massive battlefield and the Canadian monument which is part of Canada in France. Later I went to Verdun and saw on the hill, as far as the eye could see in the trees, the white markers where a million people had died in the first world war around Verdun, both German and French soldiers. The slaughter in those periods touched me deeply.

I hope we never have to see it again, but the remembrance of such an event was burnt deeply in my mind. As a consequence I hope we can teach in school about the history of wars. Although it can be a vicarious kind of experience for the teacher and the students, it can ask people to remember not to make the same mistakes of the past. We can imagine what it must feel like never to have returned.

Those are questions that are deep and piercing. Neither the teaching of history nor the experience of imagination come close to explaining the depth and intensity of the experiences of generations of Canadians who went through the first war, the second war and the Korean war. Some of them had such horrible experiences they will never talk about the war; they have a bond of silence concerning their experiences. Sometimes we can never get some people to stop talking about them, but that is the spectrum of the effect of those experiences on them.

That is why we gather as Canadians to remember and to give thanks in our hearts for the peace and freedom our forefathers brought to us from those wars. Never as Canadians have we ever sought to go to a war with unjust cause. We have never sought to go to war to take a piece of another country's land. We have always gone for an honourable and just cause. For that we should be proud.

Some older people know about the personal way of the sacrifices but they are fast leaving us. There are few working people who experienced the second world war. There are some who experienced the Korean war. There are no oral histories to be given in the future. There must be some tangible recognition of that sacrifice which gives people a moment to reflect.

One thing struck me. Every family had a right to select what would go on the headstones. I was 21 years old when I saw the headstone of a 21-year old corporal from the Winnipeg Rifles. It read: "To all the world he was a soldier. To me he was all the world".

It was a rather choking experience because I never really got too emotional about it. I got into it as a young guy, all gung-ho, ready to go and do my bit for my country and to gain some experience. That may have the motivating force for some of our soldiers. However that headstone struck me as very sentimental.

These kinds of things are very tangible. I wish someone would make a reasonable video to capture the spirit, the headstones, the actions that took place on D-Day, and all other events they experienced. They should keep it short and sweet because war is hell. We must keep that in perspective. We never want to step into it.

The older people remember the dark days of war. It left great impressions with them. In my father's family there were three boys. One joined the army. One joined the navy. One joined the air force. They all had different experiences but all came back with different attitudes. However one thing they had as a group was that they never wanted to go to war again. That was significant. However the cause being just can be presented in a way that may motivate people like them to go at it again.

I have seen the news coverage of D-Day re-enacted and the role that Canadians played in a proud way, giving up their lives. When I was there I represented my regiment, the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada that landed at Beny-sur-Mer. I was serving with a fellow in the regiment who was had been there. He was a platoon commander. Of all 110 men in the company that went in, 19 survived. It is an awful to think about what we left on the beaches. We had with us some of the sergeants who had served in other companies at the same time. They kept our history alive by making an attempt at their objectives on D-Day, which as we know eventually broke the back of the Nazis and brought peace to the world for a short period of time until the Korean war.

I ask members to give due consideration to tangibly recognizing that sacrifice. The people in the employ of the government are perpetuating governmental institutions to some effect. That is why I stand today to support the bill.

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to follow my hon. colleague from Stratford to speak in support of this bill.

Several years ago I had perhaps one of the greatest experiences that one could have as a member of Parliament. I had the honour to go with the Canadian delegation to the 75th anniversary of the battle of Vimy Ridge in the company of 14 of the veterans of that battle, which was Canada's first. Many of us say it was perhaps the battle that forged our country. All of the veterans were over the age of 90.

I remember one, a mere lad of 93, chasing one of his comrades age 95 around one of the monuments. I was astounded at the energy and the drive of these people at their great ages. I guess one had to have the constitution of a tank to survive in the trenches of 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917 and 1918.

I saw some of the cemeteries that my hon. colleague talked about. I remember going through the largest Commonwealth cemetery. I cannot remember whether it was in France or Belgium. There were rows and rows of those little white headstones with maple leaves that said over and over again: "A Canadian soldier known only to God". I defy anyone not to be in tears after going through that.

I also briefly went with some veterans of World War II on this trip to Dieppe. I saw that fearsome and frightening beach where young Canadians fought and died in such great numbers.

Consequently, I would like to add my voice as the member for Halifax, the largest navy base in our country, a place where from all corners of Canada we remember with thanks and respect. I think that we should see Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday so that never, ever will we forget and so that the children and future generations will also know what Canadians have done to preserve their freedom and their heritage.

[The Speaker]

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired.

Pursuant to Standing Order 96(1) the order is dropped from the order paper.

It being 7.33 p.m., this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7.33 p.m.)