House of Commons Hansard #109 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was farmers.
Pierre De Savoye Bloc Portneuf, QC
Mr. Speaker, how can the Solicitor General expect the review committee to shed some light on the activities of CSIS when its five members are only working part-time and fail to meet with major witnesses?
Herb Gray LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada
Mr. Speaker, I understand the Security Intelligence Review Committee has a full time staff and is capable of hiring additional staff to work full time on inquiries like this one.
I understand this is what has happened. People have been hired to work along with the full time staff. I suggest to the hon. member that he await the completion of its work before passing judgment. That is the fair thing to do.
Val Meredith Reform Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC
Mr. Speaker, after yesterday's appearance of the former Solicitor General before the subcommittee on national security, it has become apparent that both the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada and the Liberal Party of Canada have had access to CSIS information that mentions the Reform Party of Canada.
It appears that the party denied access to the information is the Reform Party whose rights have been abused. What steps is the Solicitor General prepared to take to stop this abuse of the democratic process?
Herb Gray LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada
Mr. Speaker, as far as I am aware political parties do not have access to information gathered by CSIS and the CSIS act is very clear on what that body can and cannot do.
I think the hon. member knows as well as I do that this information is not available to political parties, even though the allegations and questions relate to a period of time before this party formed the government.
Val Meredith Reform Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC
Mr. Speaker, it is very apparent to me that solicitor generals do represent political parties. There is only one way-
Canadian Security Intelligence ServiceOral Question Period
The Speaker
I would ask the hon. member to put her question, please.
Val Meredith Reform Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC
There is only one way to alleviate the concerns of Canadians about the information that CSIS holds on our party.
Is the Solicitor General prepared to provide the leader of the Reform Party with access to all information that CSIS may hold on our party?
Herb Gray LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada
Mr. Speaker, I do not concede that CSIS holds information on the Reform Party, but I would be prepared to provide any and all information as I am entitled to do under the law passed by Parliament.
Ron Fewchuk Liberal Selkirk—Red River, MB
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
At the last meeting of the G-7, Canada was asked to take a leadership role in the international effort to restore the Ukrainian economy. After decades of economic and environmental mismanagement under the former Soviet regime, could the minister explain how Canada is investing in the future and fostering better ties with Ukraine?
André Ouellet LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his question.
I remind the House that last July in Naples the G-7 endorsed the proposal of the Prime Minister to host a conference on economic reform in Ukraine. The conference will take place in Winnipeg at the end of this month. It will be part of the state visit of the Ukrainian president who will be in Canada for a few days' visit.
It is good to remember that Canada is totally committed to assisting Ukraine in its development. We have already committed over $41 million to over 70 projects. We are very confident that Ukraine will be able, with the assistance of the G-7, to turn around and establish a market economy in that country.
Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister of Canada. On more than one occasion, Mr. Protti, the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, and his predecessor, Mr. Elcock, told members of this House that there is no special division within the Canadian Security Intelligence Service spying on the Quebec government and its democratic move toward sovereignty.
With everything that is being written in the newspapers these days, and in view of the imminence of a referendum in Quebec, can the Prime Minister rise in this House and solemnly affirm that there is no organization of the "French-problem" type keeping an eye on the sovereignist movement in Quebec or on any other democratically elected party in this House or in Quebec?
Jean Chrétien LiberalPrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, I have been in politics for a while now and I have never been advised of any spying activities. I am the leader of this government and the Reform Party is making accusations. Well,
we do not need spies to know what that party is saying. We need not know more to eliminate it. As for the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois, who are unable to admit that they are separatists and call themselves sovereignists to try and confuse people, we do not need spies to know more about them.
Jim Gouk Reform Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC
Mr. Speaker, on October 7, I sent to the Minister of Transport my solution for the Pearson airport contract problem. He has now had almost two weeks to consider the merits of my proposal.
Will the minister agree that the Pearson problem will not go away and that the proposal I sent him is the only fair and logical way to bring the matter to a just conclusion?
Douglas Young LiberalMinister of Transport
Mr. Speaker, you will understand my concern when you hear from whom the proposal came. The hon. member who asked the question has been quoted as saying that as far as he is concerned there is nothing wrong with the Pearson deal. Therefore anything he has to say about it certainly will be suspect in my mind.
What is very interesting with respect to the position of the Reform Party on this matter is that when we talk about the court system, I hear its members every day questioning the judicial system of the country. Yet when they want to protect their friends with a deal at Pearson they want us to go to court. Make up your mind.
Nelson Riis NDP Kamloops, BC
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Yesterday, before the finance committee, he indicated that in his first round of prebudget consultations Canadians "told us they wanted clear targets to which they could hold the government accountable and we provided those targets. We provided those milestones." I applaud him for his leadership.
However, we have heard an awful lot about the target of deficits. Why did the minister not also include targets for employment? He is concerned about employment. We have been hearing only targets for deficit reduction. Why not targets for employment as well?
Paul Martin LiberalMinister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec
Mr. Speaker, let me say first of all that I welcome the question from the hon. member. It is really unfortunate that it only appears to be from this side of the House that one ever hears the voice of compassion or understanding and I am delighted to hear it coming from that side of the House and from that member.
The member is quite right to point out the great distinction between yesterday's document and the document that we issued on Monday: the one that dealt with creating an economic framework, the one that dealt with jobs, the one that dealt with giving Canadians skills, that said basically that the best social policy is a good job, the one that dealt with building this country.
The member is very wise to point out that we embarked on a two track project in the red book and in the election campaign. We were going to build this country and we were going to clean up the nation's finances. We remain faithful to both tracks.
Presence In GalleryOral Question Period
The Speaker
My colleagues, I would like to draw to your attention the presence in the gallery of Mr. George Heller, president of the Victoria Commonwealth Games Society.
Sheila Copps LiberalDeputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table, in both official languages, the government's response to the first report of the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development.
I have the honour to present, in both official languages, our response to the first report of the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development.
Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the Government's response to a petition.
Sheila Copps LiberalDeputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment
Mr. Speaker, in only a few short days we will celebrate the first anniversary of the Liberal government.
Over the course of that year the red book has become a guiding light of government policy. Today I am proud to announce that once again we are delivering on another red book promise.
I am proud to announce that we are going to follow up on the recommendations of the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development. We are following up on our promise not only to appoint an environmental auditor general, but to go even further.
Today, our government has decided to make profound changes in the way we operate in order to ensure that Canada's environmental agenda is integrated with Canada's economic agenda.
We have heard the members on the opposite side of the House say spend money. What the members of the third party do not understand is that a government that incorporates the principles of sustainable development into all of its actions will be a government that will save taxpayers money.
We promised in the red book that we would appoint an environmental auditor general. Many people thought the government would never follow through on that promise because it opens the government up to the potential for criticism. It could subject us to the same kind of hard nosed analysis and criticism that we are currently open to as a result of the Auditor General's current level of activity on our financial behaviour.
I wish to tell members of Parliament that not only are we fulfilling our red book promise today, we want to go further. We think it makes good environmental sense and it delivers better government. We are serious about promoting sustainable development and we are delivering today. We are serious about the greening of government.
This place alone saved over $750,000 when the former Speaker decided to make the practices of the House of Commons sustainable. It does not cost more money because we are spending money smarter. We are serious about getting the federal government's act together on environmental issues and we are serious about being held accountable for our environmental actions and our environmental planning.
The cabinet has reviewed the extremely thoughtful work of the parliamentary committee chaired by the hon. member for Davenport.
The committee felt that while it is vitally important to audit past actions of the government, it is even more important to ensure that environmental considerations be a fundamental component of planning in all government departments.
We have decided upon a package of initiatives which meet all the objectives of the committee's report and does so in a manner consistent with the fiscal framework of the government. Members of Parliament from all parties and a wide range of individual witnesses indicated the importantce of moving from the concept of sustainable development to the practice of sustainable development.
I want to repeat that in English because I think it is an important underlying principle. We have to stop talking about sustainable development and start delivering. We have to move from the theory to the practice, and that starts right here in this place with the actions of the single biggest employer in the land, the Government of Canada.
The Committee called for enhanced environmental auditing of the government's policies, programs and laws.
The committee believed that individual government departments must improve their practices to achieve consistency with sustainable development and the greening of government. The committee called for the review of existing policies and independent and internal evaluation of all new policies and laws.
The committee also felt that the government must be held accountable to Parliament and to the public for demonstrating real progress in meeting these objectives.
The committee advocated that the government go beyond the idea of just an Environmental Auditor and, instead, establish a Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.
The government will amend the Auditor General Act to establish a Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.
To guarantee the absolute impartiality of this person, she or he will be appointed by the Auditor General of Canada and report through the Auditor General to Parliament. The government will include a definition of sustainable development in the Auditor General Act and ensure that environmental considerations are taken into account in all Auditor General reports to the House of Commons.
All cabinet ministers will be required to table sustainable development strategies in Parliament. The act will make the commissioner responsible for monitoring and reporting, not to cabinet, not behind closed doors, but to Parliament to monitor and report on the performance of government departments in meeting our sustainable development goals and objectives.
The Auditor General Act will also be amended to allow the commissioner to receive from the public and to forward to appropriate ministers petitions on environmental concerns. The commissioner will have the authority to monitor and report on government responses to petitions from the public.
I want to be crystal clear. The commissioner, through the Auditor General, will issue a separate report annually to Parliament on the extent to which departments are or are not meeting the goals and objectives of their stated sustainable development strategies.
In addition to this separate report, the Auditor General's report will include considerations of economy, efficiency, effectiveness and environment.
These changes go well beyond the red book commitment and we intend to do even more. The parliamentary committee indicated the importance of an open, inclusive process to really get people involved.
We must get people involved in the greening and sustainable development process.
Government departments will be required to prepare their sustainable development strategies in an open and transparent manner which includes review by public stakeholders in receiving the advice of independent, objective experts, including the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy.
We want to guarantee that members of Parliament have a key stake in ensuring that we meet our objectives. All ministers, therefore, will be required to report on their progress toward sustainable development in preparing and presenting their annual estimates for consideration by Parliament.
The environment is not just a job for the Minister of the Environment. The environment is a job for every minister, every member and every department of government. The government, through the red book, devoted a chapter to the importance of sustainable development in building a strong economy by linking a healthy economy and a healthy environment. We are committed to this integrated approach.
Economic, social and environmental policy must go hand in hand. We are committed to ensuring the promotion of thinking green and delivering on our actions. It must be a central component of decision making, not just from the Ministry of the Environment but in the decision making of all departments of government and at all levels of society. That is the role Harlem Brundtland was talking about when she said that you think globally and you act locally. What you flush down your toilet is part of what affects the environment. What we flush down the sewers, sometimes unaccounted for, affects the drinking water and the ecosystems and the gifts that we can give to our children.
In the Government of Canada, decisions of government departments must reflect a sustainable approach to building on our economic strength by recognizing that the world is going green.
We have announced already our intention to proclaim and strengthen the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. I was pleased that we received the support of the opposition in this particular initiative.
We have already announced a comprehensive proposal for the management of toxins which put the onus not on people to prove that chemicals kill, but on companies to prove that they are safe. Reverse onus is a very important principle.
We have followed up on our promise to establish an environmental industry strategy at a time when everyone knows that government dollars are tight. We are spending new dollars from a reoriented budget to ensure that we have our fair share of an emerging world market that has the potential to create thousands of Canadian jobs over the next decade.
In less than one year we have also delivered on our promise to put in place an independent task force. The Minister of Finance and I spent a number of months working on the membership of that task force. That task force is going to report in one month on where the government is developing tax policies that help the environment and where perhaps some of our policies might be disincentives to sound environmental practices. The information from that report will help the Minister of Finance as he has to make the tough decisions that come up in the next budget. That work will also lay the groundwork for a comprehensive review of federal policies and programs again as promised in the red book.
We are determined to see the greening of the federal government. Looking around, this is a green chamber, but we want to make sure it is more than in name only. We are prepared to put our government on the line, to hold ourselves accountable for meeting our objectives and obligations.
Today's announcement means the beginning, just the beginning, but it is the beginning of a fundamental change in the operation and practices of government. Environmental and economic thinking must converge. They are not disparate; they are not fighting against each other. They are coming together because environmental health is essential for long term economic and human health.
Who would have thought 10 years ago that a whole industry would be wiped out because we did not develop sustainable practices? Just look at the fisheries, the cod stocks in Atlantic Canada to see a living example of the lack of a sustainable development policy.
Today's initiatives will be funded within existing resources. I believe in the long run today's announcement will pay off major dividends, environmental and economic, to the taxpayers of Canada, because thinking green does not cost money, it saves.
The government is getting its act together on sustainable development. We are beginning to make the links between the environment and the economy. We are turning the sentiments of Canadians into concrete action. We are delivering on the spirit of the red book. We are taking measures to seek out independent advice because we are not afraid to have our mettle tested. We are not afraid to put our feet in the fire and say we will be accountable not only to cabinet, not only to the government but to the people of Canada through the Parliament of Canada.
That is what is happening with the creation of the commissioner who reports to Parliament. The government wants to hold Parliament accountable and the people want to hold the government accountable.
With this announcement, the government is fulfilling, in less than a year, yet another primary election commitment of the Prime Minister. One chapter was devoted to sustainable development in the red book. This is much more than words. It is a set of specific initiatives to ensure all government departments develop, announce and publicize our sustainable development programs.
I want to thank, first of all, the members of the standing committee and the witnesses who appeared before the committee for their invaluable advice and insight. Today's initiatives are much stronger because all members of the committee undertook their responsibilities with the utmost seriousness and dedication.
I want to acknowledge the work of all the committee members, some of whom actually along with the chair are currently on the road on another task of reviewing the five year plan of CEPA. One former member is in the House today. I know he and his colleagues contributed very constructively to the outcome of today's announcement. As I said, it is only the beginning. We want to look to him and his party and to all parliamentarians for that kind of constructive co-operation in the future.
I can say from a personal point of view that I have spent a lot of time in opposition and not much time in government. Sometimes it is hard for governments to open themselves up to public scrutiny. It was not easy to move this through all the levels behind closed doors. However I can say that the commitment of the cabinet to open this to transparency and in particular the commitment of the Prime Minister to live up to the promise of the red book is what has made today's announcement a reality.
We came into government and some of the people in the bureaucracy said that the red book was politics. Now it is government and now they are starting to understand that the politics and the policies of the election form the basis of what it is we want to achieve.
We were successful in actually moving forward on the creation of a commissioner for sustainable development who will report directly to Parliament through an agency outside of cabinet and outside of government departments. I had the full support of all my colleagues because they understand that to really make government work we have to incorporate the principles of sustainable development not only in the Ministry of the Environment, not only in the agencies involved in environmental protection, but most particularly in how we do business in the future.
May I conclude by saying that I believe today's announcement is the beginning of a future when the commissioner for sustainable development will provide the kind of ammunition opposition parties need to get up and hold the government to account.
I am confident the mandate we have accorded to the new commissioner for sustainable development with the political teeth of the Office of the Auditor General and with the personal commitment of the current Auditor General will make this process work. Just as today when the Auditor General comes down on government departments, we may not always like it but we change, we move and we respond to the analyses of the Auditor General. In the same way future Parliaments will be waving around reports of the commissioner for sustainable development to make government accountable, to work for the people, of the people and in particular to be accountable to the Parliament of Canada.
I am thrilled. This is a small step in the right direction, but it is a step that could yield fantastic dividends for the greening of Canada in the next decade.
Jean-Guy Chrétien Bloc Frontenac, QC
Mr. Speaker, today I have been given the great honour of hearing the Minister of the Environment respond to the report of the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development about the position of environmental commissioner.
Throughout last winter, the members of this committee heard many witnesses who, one after the other, told us how they felt about the idea of creating such a position in order to assess federal programs, activities and legislation, thereby translating sustainable development into something concrete, measurable and quantifiable.
The work done by all committee members was unquestionably very serious and constructive, while the discussions held during our meetings were always frank and honest.
I must pay tribute to all members of the Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development, and particularly to its chairman, the hon. member for Davenport, who always showed throughout our discussions a respect-I would go so far as to say an innate respect-for the environment and sustainable development.
The Bloc Quebecois members on the committee, that is, my friend and colleague, the hon. member for Terrebonne, and myself, expressed a dissident opinion on the main directions set by the majority. We did so with the necessary rigour, without partisanship and in the hope of optimizing the resources and expertise already available in the Canadian Parliament.
So I take a certain pride in the fact that the minister accepted the alternative proposal we submitted to her at that time. The minister and the Cabinet agreed to amend the Auditor General Act to outline a function to be assigned to the commissioner. The government decided to make departments more accountable for sustainable development, so that efforts made in this area can be assessed.
Making departments accountable for the environment is the way of the future for sustainable development. The Auditor General, need I remind you, has learned a great deal about environmental assessments. He has developed an expertise in this area over the years and he now performs several environmental assessment functions. The Auditor General has a thorough knowledge of where environmental jurisdiction is shared and where the provinces have exclusive authority.
In a word, the Auditor General has the necessary integrity to carry out these tasks, to give the person appointed all the requisite technical support to meet the objectives and fulfil the ensuing action plans, in order to make sustainable development a reality. Of course, to do this, he will need the financial resources required to implement these objectives, which the minister has surely provided for and will assuredly inform us of in the near future.
We members of the Bloc Quebecois thought it was most important to amend the Auditor General Act to allow the Auditor General to present more than one report a year to Parliament and the people.
A few moments ago, the Minister of the Environment, in full oratorical flight, said that the auditor or the commissioner might tell the government things it did not want to hear. Of course, it hurts to hear that one has done something badly, but to be told it only once a year by someone who has a four-year contract with the Canadian people is not so bad. We suggested that the Minister of the Environment allow the commissioner to make two reports a year, or better yet, to present them as required in case of disaster and not to wait 18 months to bring this disaster to the public's attention. But no, they are still sticking with an annual report.
We members of the Bloc Quebecois thought that it was very important to amend the Auditor General Act so that the Auditor General can report to Parliament as required. If there is an emergency, another report will be presented; if there is another emergency, one or two more reports could be presented.
It seems that the minister did not want to amend the law that way. If our understanding of this is correct, two separate annual reports will be published, dealing with two different aspects of sustainable development: one for the departments and the other for current activities affecting the environment.
Hopefully, the bill to establish a commissioner responsible for the environment will be more specific and will provide a clear idea of what is involved.
The environment minister acknowledged the contribution and concerns of Bloc members regarding the position of commissioner. We will continue our critical but constructive work in committee during the review of this legislation.
Sustainable development and the environment must become priorities for the federal government, the provinces, the territories and the municipalities.
Our concern for the environment is real and permanent. Recent measures taken by the minister, including the proclamation of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act and the proposal regarding an integrated management policy on toxic substances, seemed to be motivated by a stand-offish attitude.
However, establishing a dialogue and harmonizing policies with the provinces are essential to promote sustainable development.
Our environment is too important and too fragile to start arguing over issues of jurisdiction. True sustainable development can only occur by co-operating with the provinces, not by antagonizing them or acting alone.
We feel the minister is making a mistake and will not help the environment at all if she does not enlist the participation of the provinces in various federal initiatives. The minister must make sure that the efforts to provide a healthy environment for future generations are not wasted.
I am sure the minister will agree that our environment is too important to avoid a dialogue with her provincial counterparts.
In conclusion, I once again say to the Minister of the Environment that she can count on the support of the Bloc Quebecois regarding any policy, provided that she respects provincial jurisdiction and that she avoids overlapping.
Her colleague, the Minister of Finance, used a very vivid metaphor, when he said that jumping over a bar three feet high does not look like much, but if you happen to be standing six feet down in the hole, it is quite a challenge. It means you actually have to jump nine feet!
Well, the minister can always count on our support, but Madam Minister, you will have to recognize provincial jurisdictions, and especially Quebec's, and you will have to avoid overlap, something Bloc Quebecois members on the Environment Committee have said repeatedly. Of course we did not always get our way on the Environment Committee, but considering the announcement made by the Minister of the Environment today, we were probably the only two members-after three or four months of debate, who were right, because from the very beginning our position was that the environment commissioner should work with the Auditor General.
Perhaps the Minister of the Environment will appreciate the following story. When I was a little boy, in a certain country they had a red book that was read by everyone. Children grew up reciting passages from the red book. Of course, Mr. Speaker, they later went to the other extreme-
Jean-Guy Chrétien Bloc Frontenac, QC
Yes, like a catechism. They collected all the red books to make huge bonfires. The hon. member for Shefford mentioned this awhile ago, and I suddenly remembered. So the red book became toxic waste, as it were, and they tried to erase its harmful effects from the minds of the people, and they will succeed. Mr. Speaker, you have probably guessed the name of the country and the author.
Speaking of red books, I had one during the election campaign almost a year ago, and then my organizers made the mistake of throwing it out when they were housecleaning. I asked some Liberal colleagues for one, and of course they were quite willing to give me photocopies of part of the red book but never the real red book. Madam Minister, could I make a formal and official request for a red book?