Debates of Oct. 20th, 1994

Health Care

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I am a little confused because on the one hand we hear every day from the Reform Party how important it is to be responsible for Canadian tax dollars.

In the light of that responsibility the Prime Minister has committed to a national examination of how to spend our $16 billion federal health care investment better.

The leader of the third party tells us we should leave it up to the provinces. Unfortunately that is not what his critic said. On January 27 in Hansard , page 472, Mr. Grant Hill said the federal government should be standing up and setting national standards for our health care.

Who is speaking for the Reform Party, the leader or the health critic?

Taxation

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Yesterday, in answer to a question in this House, the Prime Minister left open the possibility that he might renege on his commitment not to increase taxes when he said, and I quote:

-if people do not want us to make cuts, the alternative is to raise taxes.

So, I ask the Minister of Finance: Are we to understand that the Minister of Finance is contemplating a tax increase for the middle class since, except for cutting indiscriminately in social programs, he is unable to cut where it is really necessary, that is in the government's operating expenditures?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister was very clear yesterday when he said that we really want to lower the deficit by reducing government spending. However, if we cannot reach our goal that way, we will definitely consider other alternatives, including tax measures. Again, I invite the hon. member to make constructive suggestions and I ask him this question: Does he really think that we will eliminate a $40-billion deficit merely by reducing the government's operating expenditures, which amount to $20 billion? The hon. member, who is an economist, should learn how to add.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we have already made seven recommendations to the Minister of Finance. If he wants another one, I will tell him not to raise taxes, as promised by the Prime Minister during the election campaign. He must not do it.

How can the Minister of Finance claim, as he has been doing for four days, that all taxpayers will have to help reduce the deficit when he excludes at the outset the major corporations and the richest families in the country by not taking all appropriate means to ensure that these people pay their fair share of taxes, nothing more but nothing less?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, again I say to the hon. member that he should read the budget tabled in February. He will see that we closed loopholes, such as the $100,000 capital gains exemption, and that we launched the most comprehensive reform ever regarding corporate tax. We closed all kinds of loopholes for corporations. The hon. member should really do his homework.

He says that we must not tax and we must not make cuts, but we have to eliminate the deficit. The problem with the Bloc Quebecois is that it does not know how to add, how to multiply or how to subtract. It only know how to divide.

Health Care Forum

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it was really nice to be referred to by personal name by the Deputy Prime Minister in the House today. Might I express what I actually said in Hansard . I said there was a place for the federal government in national standards as long as they paid the bill.

The Prime Minister this morning addressed the national health care forum and he stated: "The forum is not an intergovernmental body". A good sense of humour. "This body is missing arms, legs and head".

Will the Deputy Prime Minister admit that this $12 million is being spent to make a minor payer look like a major player?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the member has acknowledged that the national government has a role to play. We are footing the bill to the tune of $16 billion.

On the one hand he is suggesting that we should have no national input, and on the other hand his leader is saying: "Turn it over to the provinces".

What we want and what the Prime Minister is trying to do is to go to the Canadian Hospital Association, to go to the Canadian Nurses Association, to involve the Canadian Public Health Association, to involve the players who are delivering the service on the ground, to see if there is a way that we can spend our $16 billion investment a bit smarter.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

And that will take four years, Mr. Speaker? Here is the format of the forum that should have been: short and sweet; dialogue from all the provinces, other nations, nurses, physio, disabled and natives; everyone present; and specific goals. All MPs would then consult with their constituencies. The time frame: about a month; results: dramatic.

This is the consultation Canadians want. This is the consultation Canadians deserve. This is the consultation Canadians need. Will the government give us that kind of consultation?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I remind the hon. member that when the Prime Minister launched the promise of the forum as he did in the red book, he did so with the express purpose of bringing the stakeholders around the table.

That is why the Consumers Association of Canada has endorsed the forum. The Canadian Public Health Association has endorsed the forum. The Canadian Medical Association has endorsed the forum. The Canadian Nurses Association has endorsed the forum. The Canadian Hospital Association has endorsed the program.

The players are around the table. We think this $12 million investment will yield dividends in a system that is currently costing us $16 billion. Is that money not being well spent?

Mil Davie Shipyards

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Natural Resources. We are informed that the shipyard in Marystown, Newfoundland, was unable to deliver on a $35-million subcontract for the Hibernia megaproject. Without calling for tenders, the contract was transferred directly to the shipyards at Saint John Shipbuilding Limited in New Brunswick.

My question is this: Would the Minister of Natural Resources confirm that this $35-million contract was transferred directly, without tender, to Saint John Shipbuilding Limited in New Brunswick?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, let me explain to the hon. member the process by which that decision was taken. It was a decision of the Hibernia management board. That board is one on which the federal government has one representative out of five. That is by virtue of our 8.5 per cent equity interest in the Hibernia project.

The federal government does not have the intention of micromanaging projects like Hibernia. The decision was a day to day management decision taken by a properly authorized board.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is all very interesting. However, considering that MIL Davie already bid on this contract in 1993, unlike Saint John Shipbuilding which never bid on the contract at all, will the Government of Canada, as a full partner in Hibernia, need I recall, exert the necessary pressure to reverse this decision and give the contract to MIL Davie, or will it do everything it can to close down MIL Davie, which might gladden the heart of the Minister of Transport?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate that the federal government has no intention of involving itself in the day to day management of the Hibernia project.

However, if my hon. friend would like to discuss with the Hibernia management consortium the reasons for its decision in relation to moving part of that contract, not the entire $35 million contract, to the Saint John shipyard, I will be happy to provide him with a name after question period.

Correctional Service Canada

[Ed Harper, Reform, Simcoe Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Solicitor General.

At 2 a.m. this morning it was reported that convicted murderers, Allan Kinsella and Serge Damien, escaped from the Bath minimum security prison.

Allan Kinsella has 29 adult convictions, previous escapes, a history of parole violations, and was recently denied early parole under section 745 because a jury felt that he was still a threat to society.

Why would this convicted murderer be incarcerated in anything less than maximum security?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, there is a correctional service investigation under way into the circumstances of the escape. I am asking for a report on the classification of the prisoner who I understand has been in a medium security institution since about 1986.

[Ed Harper, Reform, Simcoe Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, although it was recorded at 2 a.m. today, the escape actually occurred at 11 p.m. last night when the murderers placed a ladder against an alarm fence. The escape went undetected for three and a half hours because no one took the time to check the alarm.

Lives are at stake in my riding because of this escape. The Solicitor General is responsible for what happens in prisons. What action will he take to ensure that it never happens again?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I have asked for an immediate, thorough investigation into the matter. In light of the investigation I will take all necessary steps to deal with any problems that are identified.

Forestry Development

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec. We would like to remind him that the Eastern Quebec Development Plan affects 5,800 woodlot owners in that area. The Bloc Quebecois has been asking the same questions for months, but the federal government has yet to confirm its intentions regarding the Eastern Quebec Development Plan.

What is the government waiting for to go ahead and extend the plan until a regional forestry development agency is created?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. member that the minister responsible for regional development in Quebec and I will be meeting with eastern woodlot owners, municipal development corporations and representations from that region on Monday, October 31.

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has been telling us for several months now that she is going to meet with these people, but she keeps on postponing her visit. Do you realize that your lack of action, the inaction of your government, is creating an unhealthy climate of uncertainty for the 5,800 woodlot owners in these regions? They are very worried.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, let me simply reiterate that my department and I have been in discussions with the woodlot owners from eastern Quebec over the past 10 months.

As I have already indicated this afternoon, the minister for regional development for Quebec and I will be meeting with the woodlot owners. We are very aware of the importance of the issue for eastern Quebec and we will be working on options for the future.

Canadian Wheat Board

[Marlene Cowling, Liberal, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.

The Canadian Wheat Board has come under attack in recent weeks, attacks designed deliberately to weaken the board and force farmers to accept a dual marketing system.

What assurance could the minister give prairie farmers that the government continues to strongly support the Canadian Wheat Board and opposes a dual marketing system for wheat?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Wheat Board is a strong pillar of our grains industry. The record shows, I believe, that the board has done an extraordinarily good job. However there is controversy among farmers about marketing systems and about the role of the board.

We need to have a legitimate and respected mechanism to respond to that controversy. I am in the process now of selecting up to five eminent westerners to lead this effort. I hope to be able to announce them and their specific mandate by about the end of October.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It is interesting to hear the reaction of the Reform Party which only likes to shout in the rabble and not hear the facts of the case. That is what is wrong with the debate about the Canadian Wheat Board because of the volume level of those who would rather not let the other side have their say.

We are trying to establish a forum where there can be a thorough exchange of information, where the discussion can be structured and cross-examined, and where technical detailed information can be reviewed and put forward.