Debates of Oct. 24th, 1994

Social Security Program

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General]

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that the government can modernize our social security system and, based on the most recent polls, Canadians agree with that. But, first and foremost, we must all think about the kind of society in which we want to live. Together we must all search out the solutions which are appropriate for us. This is a matter of mutual responsibility.

We must, in particular, consider the way we spend and not just how much we spend. This is what the social policy reform is all about. We all agree that the problem has to do with the fact that the nature of work changed drastically over the last 30 or 40 years and that our manpower training programs are no longer adequate, given the new technologies and markets.

We all agree, including the opposition, that our rural and urban areas had a better trained labour force which attracted more investments and generated new jobs. This is why we proposed a two-tier UI reform: one to help people who normally work but sometimes need to rely on unemployment insurance; the other, with more emphasis on training, for those who have difficulty getting back or staying in the workforce. As you know, this is why a sub-committee was set up.

The second element of the proposed plan concerns post-secondary education. In Canada, education falls under provincial or territorial jurisdiction. However, since the early days of Confederation, the federal government has supported post-secondary education because of the fundamental link between education and employment.

That support has partly contributed to the establishment of our universities and colleges. Accessibility is the new great challenge which our post-secondary system must face. Indeed, our institutions must train and prepare many more people than in the past, and the training provided must be better targeted to the new jobs being created.

In fact, in the last three years, the number of jobs offered to university graduates has increased by 17 per cent, while jobs offered to workers with no post-secondary education has decreased by 19 per cent.

The idea that learning is only for kids and young adults is now obsolete. Canadians must be able to enjoy better education and training opportunities throughout their working lives. We are now talking about life-long training. We must modernize the system to avoid restricting access to education and training either for young Canadians who are just starting a career or for workers who want to keep up with the changing economy.

In a competitive global market, investing in learning is a wise decision from an economic point of view, but it must also be a shared responsibility. The goal is to maintain and extend access to post-secondary education and training.

Too many people spend years on welfare, when they could find work if they had efficient support to look for a job or further their education. The fact is that, since 1981, the number of welfare recipients in Canada has doubled to reach a little over three million.

Our social security system should protect the haves-not, that is the people who cannot work, the low-income families, the disabled or chronically ill and especially children living in poverty.

One thing is clear: even if the Canadian government had a surplus instead of a deficit, we still would have to modernize our social programs. We need a social security system that is viable in the long run. We need a system that gives people the means to break free from the bonds of welfare or to seek separation from welfare, as the Opposition would put it. There is too much unemployment, too many children living in poverty. The time has come to act and to solve these problems.

This being said, we encourage Canadians to take advantage of the social security reform process to make their points of view known. In the weeks to come, a committee will hold hearings in all parts of the country. At the same time, hon. members will hold, as I did, public meetings in their ridings to consult their constituents.

Later, the Canadian government will discuss the review with the provinces, and I certainly hope, like a majority of Quebecers, that the Quebec government will take part in this Canada-wide consultation.

The facts are clear. We must concentrate our efforts on the most vulnerable. This is only just and fair.

No one, of course, expects the working paper to solve everything. It addresses a structural problem. It shows us the way to a society that is better adapted to the social realities of the year 2000. However, the Canadian government is also undertaking initiatives to resolve difficulties in all other areas, including a detailed examination of each federal program and the modernization of government operations. It is also taking concrete measures to help businesses take advantage of new technologies and enter foreign markets. That is why we have asked Jacques Parizeau to be part of the team that will leave for China in a few days.

It takes time and a lot of goodwill to bring about substantial reforms, but I can assure you that the Prime Minister, the government and the Department of Human Resources Development have the vision, the patience and the determination necessary to modernize our social programs and to adapt them to the needs of Canadian society and to the requirements of the next century.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member will know that I have a question.

I was interested in the response to my question about universality from the colleague who just preceded him. She said, and I think I wrote it down correctly: "We have to target to those in need", which of course has been the position of the Reform Party all the way through.

One thing has been really instructive. It perhaps sounds like I am trying to redo the election of a year ago, but it seems that this position that we have to target to those in need has been coming forward from the Liberal members seems to be unique to the members of the Liberal Party who have been elected to this House. During the course of the election I did not hear that.

When I said we have to target to those in need, what I heard from our political adversaries, some of whom happen to belong to that party, was: "Oh, you are out to destroy the social programs. Oh my goodness, what is going to happen now? We believe in the sanctification of the concept of universality".

I would like to ask this member exactly the same question. Perhaps I could ask him if he too would like to reflect back approximately a year ago, 364 days I believe, the anniversary of the election being tomorrow. I wonder if during the course of the election we could find anywhere in any of his speeches or his public pronouncements where he got up on a soap box and said: "I, a Liberal candidate in this election, say we have to target our social programs to those in need" or if he was like some of the other people who I was in contest with who were saying: "No, no, we can't do that. It must be universality". Has this member changed his position from the election?

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think there is a well known concept here of accepting universality. If we look in terms of health care for example, all Canadians are treated in equal fashion. It is not an American system, it is a Canadian system. We can just take that as an example. We do believe in the universality of treatment. We do not believe in charging user fees for someone who needs cancer treatment, like they are doing now in some provinces, one being the province of Quebec and, if I am not mistaken, in the province of Alberta where they have made considerable cuts in health care.

It is not the opinion of the government or myself as the member for Bonaventure-Magdalen Islands to accept such cuts in that domain.

That being said, the concept of universality in health is maintained but there are other aspects as well in terms of where we should reorient our services, the caring for children, trying to do more for those who are impoverished.

We are also looking at the possibility of maybe reorienting our program on high income earners for child care. That money should be used for those who are really in need.

We are looking at universality one way or another across Canada but at health care where it is really needed. There should be no class differentiation between a cancer patient in Quebec or a cancer patient in Alberta. They are all suffering from the same disease, therefore they should all get the same treatment.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I will try to make this brief.

I was interested in the hon. member's adamant support for the universality of our health care system. I would like to compare the current problem we have in our health care system to that of buying a car.

If a person wanted to buy a $20,000 vehicle and found that he had only $15,000 and had to get the other $5,000 from another source, who should be in control of the car? Should it be the person who bought the car and put the majority of the money in or should it be the lender who gave him the $5,000?

Our current health care system is primarily funded by the provinces yet the federal government wants to call the shots, dictate the terms of the Canada Health Act. I would like the hon. member to respond to that.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, health care has nothing to do with buying a car. It is not a luxury, it is a right. Canadians have the right to equitable health care across Canada.

If the member wants to continue with these transfer payments-I am not expressing the government's position, I am expressing my own personal impressions-the provinces must recognize that we cannot stand for user fees. One cannot start creating private clinics across Canada.

We cannot say that because one person has money he will get cancer treatment and because the other person does not have money they will go into a U.S. system where they will have to rely on charitable organizations to pay for their health care.

That is not the Canada I grew up in. That is not the kind of Canada my grandparents built and believe you me, Mr. Speaker, my children will remain Canadians, when I have children. We will still have universality. That is one of the hallmarks of Canada and especially of our health care system.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

We have been known to make promises.

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, let me tell you that I am shaken and even bewildered by this Liberal document on social programs.

There is nothing in that green book save proposals to reform our system on the backs of the poor. That, in my opinion, is a step backwards. Where are the commitments made by the Liberal government in its red book?

When will the government stop treating people in Canada, in Quebec, and other provinces like gullible fools? The government is hiding behind vague consultations that will drag on for months. Countless organizations will express their disappointment to the committee. They will be listened to politely when in fact the dice are loaded and decisions have already been made. The minister will cut $15 billion in social spending. Those who will be affected are middle and lower class families.

The reform proposal is a shameful attempt to reduce the deficit and the debt on the backs of those people. The Liberal government has a smile on its face while it attacks the poor, not poverty.

Above all, the government is not acting as a good government should. A good government should be more concerned with today's realities, that is excessive government spending for day to day operations and wasteful spending due to the refusal to abolish overlap between different government levels.

The reform has a very negative impact on those citizens who want to work and cannot find jobs and for whom there are no jobs. The government is creating second class unemployment for workers in uncertain jobs. These workers represent 40 per cent of the workforce. Among those uncertain jobs, many are cyclical and seasonal. Ask a lumberman to work when all the felling is done. Ask a construction worker to build when the work site is closed. Ask an independent worker to provide himself with contracts. It is ridiculous.

These people will have to find jobs that do not exist just to show their good will to the Liberal government. It is totally ridiculous and even worse because the government won the election with a platform based on three words: jobs, jobs, jobs. Was that just wishful thinking? There are still no results. The Liberal government has not yet understood that people in precarious jobs are already subject to economic instability. They want to add to their stress, to their feeling of helplessness and to their despair.

Another option is the social label. With this reform, the minister will impose mandatory employability measures, training programs and community work on the unemployed. What a mess! Hon. members opposite do not realize that to deal with structural unemployment, we have to change the structure of employment. The federal government should let the Government of Quebec set up its own manpower training system, and it will save money in the process by reducing duplication in this area.

Let the provinces be responsible for manpower training. Social security reform puts groups that have already been severely hit on the firing line. Young people, single mothers, seasonal workers, workers who are fifty and over, and the middle-class will be hit harder than anyone else. On top of that, they will pay higher premiums and receive lower benefits.

Women will be the first in line. The minister is undermining their financial independence, which they fought for bit by bit, for so many years. And it gets even worse. Is this the Liberal government's vision of the future? When the spouse's income becomes a factor that determines eligibility for unemployment insurance benefits? Does this mean women have the right to work but are not entitled to unemployment insurance if they lose their jobs?

The federal government is not focusing on the real problems. It sharpens the differences between classes in society. The gap between the rich and people on middle- and low-incomes will get wider. Society is becoming polarized. Furthermore, the government is introducing cuts in transfers to the provinces for post-secondary education, cuts totalling several billion dollars, which represents about $300 million for Quebec.

With cuts like these in post-secondary education programs, CEGEPs and universities will have to raise and even double their tuition fees. It is clear that education will become an impossible dream for students of modest means.

Students from socially disadvantaged families will have a clear choice: either they go deep into debt or they can forget about higher education. Yes, the choice is clear. Only one class in society will be able to afford higher education: students from rich and wealthy families.

To this, the Bloc Quebecois says no. We refuse to set the clock back twenty years. Access to higher education is everyone's right, a the right that students alone should be able to exercise on the basis of personal choice, and not on the basis of whether they can afford it. Students cannot afford to go into debt to get an education, and the minister's answer to that is unrealistic. He talks about using RRSPs. How can a student use an RRSP he does not have? The minister of course, will say he is referring to the parents RRSPs. Yes, but the truth is that middle-class parents need their RRSPs to live on during their retirement. If they were able to contribute to an RRSP, it was because they made certain sacrifices.

The Bloc Quebecois is convinced the social security reform proposals presented by the Liberal government are merely a tool to strengthen Ottawa's centralist tendencies. The federal government is using every means at its disposal to appropriate the jurisdictions of the provinces and has no desire to cut wasteful spending and duplication.

The Chrétien government is cutting social programs instead of providing for consistent and comprehensive job-centred policies. It wants to reform the unemployed instead of dealing with unemployment. It is using this reform to become more and more involved in areas over which the provinces have exclusive jurisdiction.

Has the minister not considered some legitimate budget cuts? It would make more sense to work on recovery of bad debts totalling around $6 billion. Withdrawing from areas of provincial jurisdiction would save another $3 billion. Tax reform would provide an opportunity to measure and control the deficit. Hundreds of millions could be recovered in the process. Consider family trusts. I am sure that with the approach it has selected to reduce the deficit and reduce the debt and foreign interest payments, the government is on the wrong track.

What we need is genuine reform, genuine tax reform that will give us the resources we need to put the country's finances back on track.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General]

Mr. Speaker, once again we hear about provincial and federal jurisdictions. Some say that the federal government is interfering in programs that are administered by Quebec.

Friday, I read in the Le Soleil the Lise Bissonnette's editorial about the costly failure of education in Quebec. According to an internal report of the Commission des écoles catholiques de Montréal on the drop-out problem in high school, the situation is a real mess. Now, this is the province's jurisdiction, Mr. Speaker. In the same editorial, I read that 46 per cent of the students registered in the French sector of the CECM drop out of school. That is what provincial jurisdiction gives us.

I also read that 3,000 young people, 50 per cent of whom are under 16, drop out of school on Montreal Island. Again, this is the province's jurisdiction. I also learned that in the disadvantaged areas of Montreal Island, eight students out of ten do not finish their secondary education. That study was done by the Commission des écoles catholiques de Montréal. I also read that generally speaking 35 per cent of Quebecers do not finish high school and that Quebec comes in one of the last among developed countries. I think it is time we stop hiding the truth and stop accusing the federal government. We have proof of what we say.

Lise Bissonnette, who writes the editorial in a famous nationalist newspaper, challenges the Government of Quebec to address the problem once and for all. We have been waiting for 20 years to see Quebec assume its true responsibilities. It has the jurisdiction, let it exercise it. Now, we are told that the federal should transfer its powers to the province, but Quebec is not doing its homework.

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as a former teacher in a Quebec composite high school, I must say that what is being described as a bad education system, is not. The 46 per cent that are being mentioned are students who drop out because they are not offered appropriate courses. The people who decide on the curriculum are being dictated to by Ottawa, and yet, the only one who knows what students need in their schools is the Quebec government. We have to take these statistics with a grain of salt.

If we have a 46 per cent drop-out rate, it is because we do not give these students the means to fulfil themselves; this will only happen when the Quebec government has full authority, when it holds the levers of power. Only then will we be able to take charge and give our students, girls and boys alike, all the options they need to fulfil themselves.

This is sure to have an impact on unemployment rates. In an area like mine, in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean, what is the use of training welders when, as we are talking, the unemployment rate is 16 per cent, and they are not in demand? We must train people in the branches for which there is a need. Only Quebec can pinpoint these branches.

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on October 5, the Minister of Human Resources Development unveiled a document entitled: "Agenda: Jobs and Growth-Improving Social Security in Canada".

First, I would like to say that this work plan is misleading, and that the title itself is tantamount to false representation. Of course, the green book deals with jobs, but to my utter disappointment and that of all those who read it, growth is never mentioned.

It says on page 19, and I quote:

Many Canadian families lost economic ground during the 1980s and early 1990s. Overall, the average disposable household income has not grown since the early 1980s.

In recent years, increasing numbers of Canadians who cannot find jobs have turned to social assistance.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, more than three million people depend on social assistance, and this does not include some 960,000 workers who currently receive unemployment insurance. This, of course, does not include those who qualify neither for social assistance nor for unemployment insurance. This is a disgraceful and intolerable situation in a country which claims to have the best social security system in the world.

When faced with such facts, how can the minister argue that he is talking about growth! He should have added the word debt in the title. It would have read: The growth of the debt and the social security of the future. It would have been a much more accurate title for his discussion paper and for the measures he intends to propose.

To me, this draft action plan is simply a monograph on the state of employment in this country and the incapacity of federal programs to answer job creation needs.

The social security that the minister is seeking for the future in Canada will disappear sooner or later. This is the real agenda of the Minister of Human Resources Development and of the federal government he represents.

I should also say that the Prime Minister's speech conceals the real intentions of his government. He tried to make us believe that he feels for those who can no longer find jobs. In a speech before the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, he said: "We do not provide Canadians with sufficient assistance to find jobs and to keep their jobs. They do not get enough help from us to acquire the knowledge and expertise that will allow them to compete world-wide".

Paradoxically, this reform proposal, apparently designed to help the government make its system more cost-effective, will bring about major cuts in UI benefits, index-linked cuts in provincial transfer payments for social assistance and substantial cuts in provincial transfer payments for post-secondary education.

The Prime Minister talks about investing in our human resources and in learning. Why does his minister suggest that cuts be made in manpower training and income security programs then? Whom are we to believe? The Minister of Human Resources Development, the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance, who is calling for major cuts? Which of them are we to believe?

The real purpose of this social programs reform is not to promote job creation and learning but rather to initiate the Minister of Finance's budget cuts. And this means cutting blindly in social programs across the board.

A secret document submitted to the federal Cabinet and published by the Toronto Star on October 5, indicated that another $7.5 billion in cuts over the next five years were contemplated, in addition to the $7.5 billion already announced in the last budget.

Furthermore, the Minister of Human Resources Development tells us on page 23 of his paper:

If further measures are required to achieve the government's deficit target, they will be included in the 1995 Budget.

Mr. Speaker, they could not be more explicit.

The federal government's main objectives are clear: the first is literally to cut social programs and the second is to take control over areas of provincial jurisdiction, by maintaining a unilateral decision.

From reading the green paper, I see that most of the options presented are centralizing. So what are the Liberal government's real intentions?

First, it wants to take back large amounts from the poor and the middle class, then it sneaks into areas of provincial jurisdiction without even touching on the Canadian Constitution.

We must admit that the federal Liberal government timed its operation well. It waited for the results of the election in Quebec to present its draft working plan. Moreover, the minister now thinks that he can delay tabling his reform until the fall of 1995.

We now understand why the Prime Minister insists that Quebec hold the referendum on sovereignty within eight to ten months. The Prime Minister wants Quebecers to vote in the referendum before the social program reform is tabled.

The minister cannot go on hiding his intentions on the pretext that he wants to consult the people and the provinces some more. What, quite frankly, has this government been doing for a year now but consulting and reconsulting? And without really doing that much, we might add.

Since the minister showed no consideration for the first phase of consultation on unemployment insurance reform, why would it be different for his social program reform?

We in Quebec note that the federal government's timetable is based mainly on political events in Quebec, which confirms our fear that it wants to attack the jurisdiction of Quebec and of the other provinces.

As the Official Opposition party in the House of Commons, the Bloc Quebecois will participate in the reform consultation process, even though we feel that the government has already made its bed. Be assured, Mr. Speaker, that we will be there to defend Quebecers' interests. We also hope that the minister will have the decency to table his reform before the referendum on Quebec sovereignty.

Quebecers have a right to know what the federal government is plotting behind this whole reform. They will not be had a second time like in 1980. As we all remember, to win his cause, Prime Minister Trudeau told the people that no meant yes, and we know what happened next, namely the unilateral repatriation of the Constitution without Quebec's consent, followed by the rejection of the Meech Lake and Charlottetown accords.

My colleagues from Timiskaming and Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, who sit on the Standing Committee on Finance, have already made concrete and realistic suggestions for eliminating the federal deficit without touching social programs. These suggestions are as follows. First, recovering bad debts, which would bring in some $6 billion. Second, the federal government's complete withdrawal from areas of provincial jurisdiction, which would generate at least $3 billion. Third, reforming taxation of family trusts, which would bring in between $300 million and $400 million. Fourth, cutting subsidies to unproductive and non-competitive businesses, which could save $3.3 billion. Fifth, cutting the defence budget by $1.6 billion. Sixth, withdrawing at once from Hibernia, which will cost federal coffers $250 million this year. These are concrete measures proposed by the Official Opposition to help eliminate the federal deficit without touching social programs.

In conclusion, this paper should have put more emphasis on the diversity of our labour markets and, as indicated by the polls commissioned by the Department of Human Resources Development, on the need to delegate to the provinces the responsibility of employment services programs as well as vocational training for welfare recipients.

Instead, with its reform, the federal government persists in trying to reduce the deficit at the expense of the poorest and of the middle class. The Liberal government targets those who already have nothing, namely the poor. In its discussion paper, the government uses the word employment in an abusive way, for there is no mention of any job creation strategy in it. Instead of tackling the problems of waste, mismanagement and lack of jobs, the federal government now targets the unemployed and the middle class.

I will end by saying that a member of Parliament also has a responsibility to protect the poorest in our society. We must represent all our fellow citizens and in particular those who are most often victim of prejudice or rejection: the poor, the unemployed, our seniors and, in particular, our young families. I sincerely think that this social program reform will not solve any of the problems which the government wants to tackle.

A motion to adjourn to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 is deemed to have been moved.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on September 19, in this House, I asked a question of the Minister of Finance.

I stressed the fact that, according to Statistics Canada, the unemployment rate had risen by 0.7 per cent in August in Quebec and that it stood at 12.2 per cent. I said that in spite of a slight economic recovery and given the increase in population, Quebec still needed 210,000 jobs to reach its pre-recession level of employment.

Therfore I asked the Minister why did he not decide to create jobs by proposing concrete measures?

That was in September. We are now at the end of October and I must say that unemployment in Quebec is still at 12.2 per cent and the minister replied that 77,000 jobs had been created since the beginning of the year. These figures must be adjusted downwards because 28,000 jobs were lost last month, and 4,000 the month before.

This means that, despite the recovery, and despite the fact that the economic situation of Quebec may seem bright, it does not make any difference for the workers. Unemployment is still officially at 12.2 per cent and there are no forthcoming government initiatives that might help Quebec get out of this difficult situation.

I also asked the Minister of Finance when he would be reducing the UI premiums in order to lighten the burden of small- and medium-sized companies? When? The opposition has been denouncing the increase in UI premiums for over a year now.

The minister said it was an excellent question and that he was going to, but he did not. I will ask him again, and we will keep asking, even more so because he makes Quebec and Quebecers pay a high price in the first phase of the unemployment insurance reform. Billions, we now know it, billions have been accumulating in the unemployment insurance fund. The minister, contrary to what he says, contrary to what we can read in the green book, does not care about job creation, in Quebec at least, since he seems satisfied with the present situation.

I can only repeat my question: When is he going to lower unemployment insurance premiums? We cannot accept any other answer than an agreement to lower them now.

[David Walker, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, as the member pointed out, employment in Quebec continues to be below its pre-recession peak. This is an unacceptable situation, which this government intends to correct.

The weak employment situation in the province reflects the loss of 135,000 jobs and the rise in the unemployment rate of more than four percentage points in the three and a half years prior to the election of this government.

In less than a year since this government was elected, over half that loss has been recovered. From October 1993 to September 1994, full-time employment has increased by 102,000 in Quebec and the unemployment rate has fallen a full percentage point, from 13.2 per cent to 12.2 per cent).

At this rate Quebec will reach its pre-recession peak in seven months. The recent strong employment growth in Quebec and across Canada has been helped by this government's freezing of the UI premiums below the required statutory rate in 1994; and the implementation of the $6 billion Federal Infrastructure Program to encourage capital expenditures.

Employment growth will be further helped by a rollback in the UI premium rate in 1995, as announced in the 1994 Budget.

The changes in the UI program announced in the last budget and the additional changes which will result from Minister Axworthy's social security reform will allow further reduction in UI premiums in the future. Because of lower payroll taxes, businesses in Quebec will find it easier to create jobs.

We have reasons to be optimistic that employment growth will continue. Employment growth in the past two quarters has been the strongest in more than five years.

Furthermore, growth in the economy is gaining momentum. In the second quarter, the real GDP grew 6.4 per cent (annual rate), up strongly from about four per cent in the previous two quarters and in 1993 as a whole.

All sectors of the economy are now contributing to and reinforcing the growth in employment. Surging exports led to a record real trade surplus in July. Strong growth in current and planned investments in non-residential construction indicates firms are beginning to expand their production capacity, which will require more employees.

Improving employment prospects have boosted consumer confidence and consumer spending.

However, for Quebec to share fully in the strong employment growth outlook for the Canadian economy as a whole, the political uncertainty about Quebec's future within Canada needs to be resolved.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Pursuant to Standing Order 38, the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted.

Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24.

(The House adjourned at 6.53 p.m.)