Debates of Oct. 24th, 1994

Social Security Program

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I want to be assured that the hon. member for Simcoe Centre had time to conclude his remarks before Question Period. If not, he would have a few minutes to conclude and then he would be subject to five minutes of questions or comments.

[Ed Harper, Reform, Simcoe Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I had concluded my remarks just prior to Question Period but I would be prepared to answer any questions.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Questions or comments? Resuming debate, the hon. Secretary of State for Multiculturalism and the Status of Women.

[Sheila Finestone, Liberal, Secretary of State (Multiculturalism) (Status of Women)]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to address the issue of social security reform. It is a vital one for all Canadians.

Indeed, members of this House and the Canadian people face a major challenge: updating our social security system. Based on the opinion polls, I must say that it seems they are ready and they recognize the need.

For 50 years, successive Liberal governments instituted a series of social programs which shared the wealth of this country among all Canadians.

Women have been particularly concerned about this as some of those programs have helped them and their families, their children, get back on their feet after a job loss. Others help some Canadians get training and an education, while others still have come to the rescue of Canadians who have nowhere else to turn.

However, the world has changed faster than our programs have and the system has not kept pace with the dramatic transformation in the economy, in technology, in the Canadian family, in global competition and in our fiscal situation.

Canadian society is still changing. Women play a much larger role in the workforce and in the paid economy than they did some 40 or 50 years ago. The needs of other groups such as ethnocultural communities, indigenous peoples and the disabled have also evolved rapidly over these years.

The workplace is in transformation. As familiar jobs disappear people are forced to work in unfamiliar situations. Many are joining the growing non-standard workforce of part time, temporary home workers or workers who work in their homes and contract work. These people have to do without the security of traditional company pensions and benefit plans.

As we shift to knowledge based industries, people need more education, training and continued learning. I have witnessed this transformation in my riding of Mount Royal. During the last recession we experienced our share of factory closures where people saw jobs and some permanent positions banished forever.

In many ways the riding of Mount Royal is a reflection of Canadian society. We are a diverse group of people of all religious, ethnocultural and age groups who live and work together in both official languages. For the most part we have worked together in harmony, peacefully with good productive lives full of hope and fulfilment.

Now my constituents are doing their best to adapt to our country's new economic reality. Many are succeeding but too many are falling through the cracks. I know that my riding of Mount Royal is not an exception to the rule. The new challenge people face there exists in every major city across the land.

Since 1981 the number of Canadians on social assistance has doubled to just over three million. Canada assistance plan or CAP expenditures have increased from $2.6 billion to $8 billion annually. Clearly the social support network has not masked societal changes which have occurred over the past 30 years.

The bottom line is that we are facing a fundamental shift in the way we live and work. Therefore we must redesign our social security program to respond to that shift, building on Canadian values of compassion and shared opportunity. At the same time we must ensure they remain sustainable and affordable.

Combined spending on unemployment insurance and social assistance has grown as a proportion of Canada's economic output by more than 75 per cent between 1972 and 1992. Such increases are simply not sustainable. The federal government now spends over $38 billion for all social security programs, but it has to spend $40 billion for interest on our debt.

We are sending that money for the most part to New York, Tokyo and Berlin. This is not the way we want to get our system under control. If we do not get our social security system and others under control, foreign markets will decide what our social programs should look like. That is not what Canadians want.

We want to be able to design our programs for ourselves. Therefore I commend my colleague, the Minister of Human Resources Development, for having the courage to undertake such a fundamental reform of Canada's social programs. I echo his invitation to all Canadians to get involved in this very important discussion, address the green paper, get a copy and work hard to give us the kinds of answers that will reflect their values. I applaud his insistence that our new system should be affordable, effective and fair.

To live up to the minister's commitment we will need social programs that reflect the reality of rural, urban and metropolitan communities. Our social programs must protect those most in need: people who cannot work, people on low incomes in families that are struggling to get by, people who face barriers due to disability or chronic illness, and especially children living in poverty.

We must improve the welfare of our children because 1.2 million of them presently live in poverty. This is totally unacceptable. Children are poor because their mothers are poor. We must therefore ensure that women get the opportunity to train for all types of jobs. We must also help those who rely on welfare to be moved off that cycle.

Too many people spend years on social assistance, even though with the right kind of employment and training opportunities they could find work; but they need a proper support system. Too many disadvantaged families get caught in the welfare trap for the very good reason that they seem better off there. That is really not a very sensible way to have the system structured.

Our future prosperity requires that all people contribute to the best of their potential in order to fulfil their dreams. We have a responsibility to those who depend on social programs to move from dependence to full participation, for the best social security is a job. The essence of our reform is to get people back to work.

We believe this is the shortest route to prosperity. A strong economy is crucial to the independence and equality of Canadians outside the mainstream, especially women, newly arrived Canadians and other groups.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, we must make some difficult decisions. Our choices today will determine the opportunities available tomorrow. The government's No. 1 priority is economic growth and job creation. To succeed in this mission, we must act on many fronts. The reform of social security is one of our most important initiatives in this regard. The reform of our social security system must be based on equality for all Canadians. We absolutely must listen to the communities which for too long have been marginalized in our society: native peoples, newcomers, the disabled and women. The nature and scope of the options we are proposing are fundamental. It is therefore imperative that these groups participate in the consultation process under way.

I strongly urge all groups to participate, particularly women's groups and ethnocultural organizations. I send them a personal message of encouragement. With this reform we will have the opportunity to help shape the future of Canada's social programs together. I believe that groups owe it to themselves and to their constituencies to make the most of this occasion. I urge them not to miss the chance to address this consultation document.

One of the single most important factors to take into account as we examine the green paper is the impact the reforms will have on women. Why? It is because women represent 52 per cent of the population in Canada. Women make an enormous contribution to our society and to our economy, and the future of our children lies in the hands of our women. Today I urge members to consider the important ways to make sure that our new social security system works particularly for women and children who are our future.

First, we must ensure that the voices of women are heard in the consultation process, in our riding and at the committee, for women's issues are fundamentally society's issues. They are issues that concern every one of us in the House. Women are not special interest groups. They represent diverse backgrounds with a full range of interests and concerns.

To succeed in our mission it is essential that we get their guidance. They have to tell us what kind of social programs would give them a sense of security, a sense of well-being, and contribute to their progress toward equality. Women's groups and organizations have been a most important catalyst for progress on women's equality and to ensure our full partnership and participation in the growth and development of the Canada of tomorrow.

As a result we will all benefit from their work. We have to ensure that organizations representing women's concerns, groups that have limited resources and broad mandates, have sufficient time and support to participate in this critical exercise. The Minister of Human Resources Development has to be thanked for facilitating this process.

Everyone must be able to participate in this consultation process because every Canadian will be affected by the final result. The Minister of Human Resources Development has already spoken with many organizations. He and I will pursue discussions with both women's groups and organizations concerned with poverty.

The second important component to building a social security program that serves everyone is to create a system that is gender sensitive. This means a system that recognizes that women and men in Canada experience life differently.

The discussion paper on social security reform outlines the key life streams of Canadians: work, learning and security. These are areas where women have different and too often disadvantaged experiences. They have a different rhythm of attachment to the workforce.

We must make sure changes and initiatives we suggest in these areas reflect that difference, namely child bearing, care for the ill and care for the elderly. The options for reform provide many openings for change. With gender sensitive responses those openings can become doors of opportunity for women and for society. Women may benefit from a review of the unemployment insurance that is sensitive to those in non-standard employment.

We all know the workforce dominated by women and younger Canadians is currently excluded from unemployment insurance coverage. Employment services which are more client centred and user friendly would be better tailored for women.

Enabling Canadians to benefit from lifelong learning is particularly important to women, especially for those who curtailed their own education and training early in life and/orleft the workforce to raise their children, an important function and role in society. Child care is particularly relevant to women whose responsibility for family too often limits their own opportunities.

These examples demonstrate how we can look at every reform option with gender lens to see how it may affect the lives of women.

Lastly today I want to emphasize that to address child poverty we must improve the economic status of women in Canada. The reality is that throughout their entire lives women in Canada are at a higher risk of poverty than men. Large numbers of women live in poverty at some time during their lives. We must recognize the complex interplay of factors that put women and children at risk. Women are still largely responsible for the unpaid work of child care, elder care and housework in the family.

Indeed women are often in a situation that we describe as the sandwich generation. They support their aged parents as well as their children. However women are also increasingly responsible for earning income to keep the family above the poverty line either in two-income families or as heads of lone parent households.

There is a segment of the Canadian women's population that has done quite well. I hope we will see some wonderful improvements. Those are women who have had the benefit of higher education and have benefited from the role that has been played by women's organizations to move toward equality, access and breaking the glass ceiling. They are few and far between and there is much left to do. They can contribute to this discussion as well.

Women remain at a disadvantage in the workplace largely for reasons related to having and raising children. In 1992 women in Canada averaged only 72 cents for every dollar that men made in the workforce. It is a catch 22 for women and it is a recipe for economic dependence and poverty.

A 1990 report entitled "Women and Poverty Revisited" by the National Council of Welfare concluded that the link between motherhood and poverty was clear. According to that report the only safeguard which stands between most married women and poverty is their husbands' incomes. That is not very reassuring.

In fact, the group which is likely to be hit hardest by poverty in Canada is single-parent families headed by women. In 1991, 82 per cent of one-parent families were headed by women. Children who live with a single mother are five times more likely to be poor than those who live with two parents. Nevertheless, we cannot ask women to remain in precarious family situations just for economic reasons, especially when the woman and children suffer domestic violence or are threatened with it. We must also strive to avoid stereotyping single mothers on welfare.

A study of 150 such women in 1991 by Professor Carolyne A. Gorlick of the University of Western Ontario showed that their average age was 32. Nearly three quarters of them had already worked full-or part-time. Forty-one per cent had a university education.

Most had one or two children and almost all had some education or training. As the Prime Minister said so well in Fredericton recently, "The reform is not a question of figures and statistics. It concerns human beings and the challenges they must face every day of their life". So how does one help a single mother make the transition from welfare to employment?

Yes we need to support this woman with education and training.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I was in this situation earlier this day. I know that it is a subject matter of great interest to both sides of the House and 10 minutes is sometimes not a great deal of time on such a substantive issue.

If we could ask the co-operation of members to let the secretary of state conclude her remarks, we will waive the question and comment period.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Sheila Finestone, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I did not realize we had gone that long. I appreciate the good grace in this House.

A woman with this kind of education and training upon her return to the work force will likely get a job that is lower paid, of lower status and less secure. She may need language training or Canadian accreditation for education and training from another country. She most likely needs adequate enforced child support payments from her child's father. She will definitely need child care. She needs a workplace that allows her to balance work and family responsibility and she needs social security that recognizes she will live several years longer than most men.

Women have worked for decades to become economically independent, at work and at home. Whatever we do, we must not undermine this hard-won progress to individual financial self-sufficiency. We must recognize the connections between women's economic dependency, inequality and the violence done to them.

We must support women's individual ability to have control over their own lives.

In closing, I want to emphasize that Canadians believe in the dignity of work and we believe in sharing and in compassion. As a society we recognize the interdependence of economic and social well-being. We know that we cannot have one without the other.

Canada, as it is admired around the world for the way we balance these factors of our collective lives, wishes to continue in that effort. We have worked through times of wrenching change before in our history and we can do it again.

Let me quote our Prime Minister once again, because I think it is important: "Change does not mean changing our values on principles. It means changing programs to meet new needs and new realities in accordance with our values and our principles so together we can build a social security system that includes all Canadians and that contributes to a very strong economy. And together we can build a prosperous nation where difference is valued and everyone is included".

After all, Canadians both men and women, want security, dignity and the opportunity to make a decent living for themselves and for their families. All Canadians want to build a brighter future for our children and ensure that they have every opportunity to prosper.

An effective fair, affordable social security system for all of us will certainly help. We look forward to everyone's participation.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

After listening to an opinion, I think I may have been a little too harsh when I suggested that we eliminate the period for questions and comments, especially since a minister had the floor at the time. Consequently, I will allow one question.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State spoke from the heart. The problem is that the reform will primarily affect women and not in a positive way. On the contrary, it will have a negative impact on their situation.

Here are just a few examples. The first ones affected by the two levels for UI purposes will be women who, in many cases, hold insecure term jobs-since these are more recent jobs, as you know. Women will be the first ones affected. They will also be the ones affected by the recommendation that the spouse's salary be taken into account when determining UI benefits. Women are also the ones who will be affected by the cuts to social assistance. Moreover, women will not want to get further into debt to get an education.

So, women are directly affected and, in spite of the very sensitive comments made by the Secretary of State who has a very kind heart, the fact is that the main objective of this reform is to reduce budgets by $15 billion over five years. The government may send invitations and hold countless discussions, the fact is that women are the first victims of that reform. The government helps women in a small way but harms them in a very big way.

[Sheila Finestone, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first it is not true that the government will cut $15 billion, which I believe is the amount mentioned by the hon. member. This is not true at all and I think the Minister of Human Resources Development provided the real answer. If you read his answer in Hansard , you will see that this is not true.

Second, I will admit that there are problems for women and that these problems represent a big challenge. However, the current situation is simply unacceptable. Everything that is in place right now prevents women from moving ahead; it only keeps them in poverty. What I want and what this government wants is to hold an in-depth consultation exercise, especially with women. We want to get their opinion and find out what changes they would like to see. We simply cannot ask women to keep putting up with the system as it is currently structured.

Women cannot rejoin the workforce when they are on welfare, because all the-I was going to say "les stupidités", but I do not know if you say that in French-constraints related to CAP do not give women a chance to go back to work.

It makes them poorer rather than enables them to become active participants in the job market. I would say to all members in this House and in particular to a fervent advocate for fairness for women-

I say to the hon. member opposite, to answer her question, that she is right. However, this reform will improve the plight of women; it will not make things worse. I have always insisted that all our initiatives be of benefit to women. If this is not the case, I want women to come and tell us. We will then take a closer look at the issue. I am asking you to help us bring about constructive changes for the future of all Canadian women.

[Marlene Catterall, Liberal, Ottawa West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise today and compliment the Minister of Human Resources Development for his commitment and contribution in proceeding with the government's job and growth agenda.

The minister in his discussion paper has given us an opportunity to participate in the revamping of our social security system. We must bring our social programs in line with the realities of today, realities that are tough and constraining, realities that our society can no longer ignore.

Close to 80 per cent of Canadians agree that Canada's social programs are in need of major reform. We are inviting all Canadians to consider and to advise us on how we can improve our programs and make them suitable for the 1990s and into the next century.

The Canadian social security system was created a number of years ago to meet the specific needs of a bygone era. Today, the needs are different because society and economic parameters have changed considerably.

For example, when the unemployment insurance program was originally developed, it was to give temporary relief to people who had lost their jobs. However, today, Canadians must adapt to an economy which requires fewer workers. Consequently, the Canadian government must provide its people with a different support system for all those who want to enter or re-enter a highly competitive job market.

It is clear to all Canadians that the necessity for change not only applies to our unemployment insurance program but to all our national social programs. The social security system that has provided support to Canadians for decades must now be modernized. Our social programs must be redefined according to the economic and social changes that have affected our society.

However, despite the government's strong determination to pursue a thorough reform of our social safety net, it will strongly abide by the fundamental principles that have guided Liberal governments in the past. Hence, the first and foremost priority of our government is to preserve our traditional and cherished values of justice, of tolerance, of compassion for those who are most vulnerable, while providing to all Canadians the opportunity for the dignity of work.

In helping Canadians to get good jobs we have to consider that nearly half of all new jobs require 16 years or more of education and training. Yet we still have 30 per cent of students dropping out before graduating from high school.

This is one of many contradictions that must be eradicated for the benefit of our social fabric and our economic future. We need to supply better job counselling for unemployment insurance claimants. We realize that basic skills training is essential for any job and that classroom and workplace training is also a key element for the revival of our workforce.

Canadians think that our social programs are too bureaucratic, inefficient, wasteful and that too many people are put in the position of becoming dependent on them. We are not helping anyone by assuming that some people cannot do anything to improve their state in life. That is exactly what some of our social programs do and it must be stopped.

Our social security system must protect everyone in need. Among them are the people who cannot work, people with disabilities or chronic illness, low income families and children who live in poverty.

In the discussion paper the minister outlines four main objectives for reform: helping Canadians find and keep employment; providing support for those who are most in need; ensuring programs are fair, affordable and effective, while eliminating waste; creating a social environment that fosters independence and mutual responsibility.

We want to reform our social system to protect the values we universally hold true, namely equality, freedom, compassion, and mutual support. As a society built on these principles, we have the duty to give all the help we can to those who need it the most.

This means that we must share our resources more fairly. Canada is abundantly rich and, in this, is the envy of the world. Unfortunately, too few Canadians benefit from our country's wealth. This is precisely what we want to rectify with the help of all the people.

We as a government need to address the issues of an economy with fewer jobs, a society with an aging population and a shrinking middle class, and an increased poverty level among our population. I want to take the opportunity to remind the House and Canadians that those who are most in need of social reform are those who are the poorest in our country. That is women and it is children.

We have to look at the difficulties that women have to face in this new era. Women make up the majority of lone parents and 60 per cent of them live below the poverty line. Women have to work hard to support their families but face unfair wage gaps compared to their male counterparts. They are still very poorly represented in well paid occupations and positions.

Tragically women who do earn a living, however inadequately paid, may consider themselves lucky because two-thirds of the work of women is unpaid. This reality is unacceptable in a country where equality has always been a basic element of our national values.

For all these reasons Canadian women are entitled to receive appropriate assistance. For instance affordable child care is more than ever a necessity, not a luxury. Our government recognizes the urgency of the matter and is committed to work jointly with the provinces to increase the number of quality child care spaces across Canada.

Raising the standard of living of women is of crucial importance for the fate of many poor children across the country. We must act now to ease the life of over one million children living on welfare. The number of poor children in our society is increasing not decreasing with our current social programs. Obviously we need an improvement.

I want to say as one who has worked with women and young people living in the social security system that they are the first to recognize the need for changes in the programs, they are the first to recognize the barriers that prevent them from getting the job they need, from getting the training they need. Our system is set up in such a way that to do so they have to jeopardize the financial security of their children and there are not very many women who will do that. Those are the barriers we have to get rid of.

There are other groups in our society still coping with the lack of adequate services, people with disabilities. These people too need greater access to training and to employment related services.

If there is one commitment in this reform, it is the commitment of our government to create opportunity for every one of our citizens who can contribute to the building of our country.

I conclude by reminding the House and Canadians that this is a participatory process. There are a number of recommendations and options in the paper that the minister released two weeks ago. It is important that all Canadians inform themselves of what is in those papers and engage in the dialogue that will happen over the next few months.

This coming Saturday, October 29, in Ottawa West I will be having an all day community consultation. I know that these same kinds of consultations are going on right across the country. With my few remaining seconds I simply remind every organization and every individual out there that their participation in this dialogue is crucial to the future of this country.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member referred several times to the problem of women. She was very sympathetic to their needs, but what she said is a far cry from what actually happens. What the government is proposing is a direct contradiction of the principles of equality, justice, tolerance and fairness mentioned by the hon. member, especially when we are talking about a group of women with even more problems, and I am referring to immigrant women, a group I know very well.

I think that when the Liberals were in the opposition, they were far more consistent. Today, they are practising the exact opposite of what they preached in the opposition. It is not a wise decision on the part of a political party like the Liberal Party, the main party in Canada.

My question is this: social programs were introduced when Canada was not as rich as it is now. This was years and years ago. Today, Canada is much richer, so why attack these programs today? Why not get the money to finance these programs from the rich and thus avoid cutting the social benefits for which women have fought for generations?

[Marlene Catterall, Liberal, Ottawa West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to deal with women's issues. I think it is very important to stress what I said in my speech. This is a discussion. We have made a number of proposals. I think the question raised by the hon. member is very important and that it has an impact on women and on children as well, to some extent. How can we have a better system? That is a topic for discussion and dialogue with Canadian women. We want to find out what they think about the impact of certain options.

I hope the hon. member will have a chance to discuss the existing system with his constituents who are now on welfare. When he talks to women who are in the system, he will hear about the problems in the present system and the problems that keep them in a state of dependency.

I am not certain that I agree that in the past, when Liberal governments introduced our social programs, the country was poorer. It would be very easy for me to say the problem was created by the previous government, but I will not say that.

We are now in a situation where we spend 40 cents out of every dollar on servicing the debt and, of course, it is unacceptable that we cannot spend these 40 cents on something that would be of far greater benefit to the country and to Canadians.

However, I think it is just a matter of using the resources we have to improve the situation for the people who are in the system, and not leaving them high and dry.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a number of points here but I am going to have to limit it to one because of time. I will do that.

I want to caution the House and the government particularly on the use of statistics. A long time ago I read a book

How to Lie with Statistics . We often hear that a large proportion of Canada's children live in poverty.

I deplore children living in true poverty. I need to give members very quickly this anecdote. My son who now is in Rwanda was in southern Sudan a number of years ago. He was working with a relief agency there. When he wrote home he said: "Dad, Mom, we are having great success here. Whereas there used to be 160 children a day dying of starvation, we have brought the number down to 60". He said: "That is a great success". Then he added, referring to our community back home: "Of course by Sherwood Park standards, we have not quite met it yet".

That is so true. In this country, we do not know what poverty is. The statistic that is used by Statistics Canada is that a family is in poverty if its family income is less than half of the median income.

The irony of that is that if the average family income in Canada were to reach $100,000 then anyone who makes less than $50,000 would be considered by that definition to be in poverty. Yes, they are making considerably less than the average peers around them but they are not in true poverty. I think we need to be very, very careful.

Poverty is also a state of mind. I grew up in a very poor family but we were never poor in the truest sense of the word. We always had the basic necessities of life and we had a family with loads of love. When you have that it is really all that a person needs.

[Marlene Catterall, Liberal, Ottawa West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to respond to this question. Some of my colleagues will remember that it was a former Tory chair of the committee on employment and immigration that tried to redefine poverty and pretend that poverty went away.

Let me tell the member opposite about the people in my community, the children who start school behind the eight ball because they are identified as poor the minute they walk into the school. They are not as well fed. They do not have the bright and shiny hair. They do not have the nice clothes. Their education is immediately crippled from the day they walk into school.

If we pretend that poverty in this country is not really a problem we will not solve that problem. The victims of not solving that problem are our children. Poor children are much more likely to be involved in serious accidents, to fall seriously ill, to commit suicide, to die, to drop out of school and to end up in jail. What more information do we need to solve the problem of our poor?

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the issue of social programs is of particular concern to me, as a former labour lawyer in Chile, a 19-year veteran of the FTQ and the member of Parliament for a modest riding in Montréal-Nord. I must admit that I am very concerned, following the release, on October 5, of the Liberal government consultation paper entitled "Improving Social Security in Canada".

The title of this paper bears little relation to its contents. It is at best an ultraconservative paper. Even the Mulroney government had never dared go as far as this Liberal government of Jean Chrétien and Lloyd Axworthy.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I would just like to remind the members that we are supposed to refer to one another by our titles. For example, the right hon. Prime Minister, the hon. Minister of Human Resources Development, and so on. I know that we cannot always show the same consideration to former MPs, but as far as those currently in office are concerned, we must maintain this respect relationship.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was referring to the government of the present Prime Minister and his Minister of Human Resources Development. Now, I must add that, regarding social programs, the Liberals are doing exactly the opposite of what they preached when they were in opposition. I am for social security reform, but true reform designed to improve social security, not to destroy it.

It took decades to build our social security system in Canada. Now, this federal government is trying to dismantle it in a matter of months. The real hidden agenda of the instigators of this reform is to bring the deficit down. Since coming to power, the Liberal government has done its utmost to balance its budget on the back of the disadvantaged. This paper proposes very drastic changes in unemployment insurance as well as in how funding of social assistance and post-secondary education are funded, changes designed to save $15 billion over the next five years.

In so doing, the government is hoping to reduce the national debt to 3 per cent of the gross domestic product within three years. There is nothing in this paper about the real challenge facing Canada today: job creation. No effort is made to eliminate the very expensive jurisdictional overlaps between the federal government and the provinces.

Instead of looking at a fairer taxation system for tax havens, family trusts, etc., he attacks programs protecting the most vulnerable in our society. The government blames the crisis on the poor, the unemployed, the people on welfare, and that is outrageous.

The union movement which fought for and instigated the introduction and improvement of the social security system for generations is now unanimous in opposing and condemning the reform proposed by the Minister of Human Resources Development.

In Quebec, the presidents of the three central labour bodies-Clément Godbout of the FTQ, Gérald Larose of the CNTU, and Lorraine Pagé of the CEQ-vigorously denounced the federal government's intentions and are preparing a major attack and a joint brief to be tabled soon as part of the consultations held by the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development. Together, these three unions represent over 700,000 Quebec workers.

For its part, the 2.2-million-strong Canadian Labour Congress has launched a vigorous fight against the proposed reform. Its president, Robert White, criticized the discussion paper because it does not set out any job-creation measures. He added, "The government seems to think that by training workers and cutting their UI benefits, these people will find non-existent jobs as if by magic. The concept of compulsory work or enforced volunteerism outlined in this paper is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of Canadians who have lost their jobs".

The thousands of unemployed workers and welfare recipients, as well as all the people I consulted in my riding of Bourassa, strongly oppose cutting and dismantling our social programs. Montréal-Nord is a city whose population is getting more diversified, older and poorer. In the last two years, the amount of social benefits has increased by 21 per cent, while 34 per cent of all welfare applications are associated with job losses. The unemployment rate in Montréal-Nord has reached 30 per cent including welfare recipients able to work.

My riding and the City of Montreal are now among the largest concentrations of poor people in Canada. Those hardest hit by this situation are members of visible minorities, young people, women and seniors, who are very numerous in my riding.

I take this opportunity to denounce VIA Rail's recent decision to immediately eliminate 478 jobs including 273 in Montreal. In December 1993, the company had already announced that it would lay off 250 workers. Most of these workers are members of the Canadian Auto Workers, which is my union. These people want to work.

These people have decided to work and to be gainfully employed. They are particularly worried about the proposed modification to the unemployment insurance system. The people of my riding are concerned about the intention of the federal government to take into account their spouse's income to calculate the level of allowance.

If enacted these reforms would prove to be very harmful for women and will endanger the progress toward equality which an entire generation has achieved.

Unemployment insurance is one of the pillars of our social security system. It is entirely financed by the contributions of workers and employers. Employees pay premiums to insure themselves against loss of income in the event of the loss of a job. Thus the government has neither the authority nor the justification to take from these workers the compensation that is rightfully theirs.

We must say that, on the whole, Canada's social programs are already below the average for industrialized countries. In fact, Canada spends $18 billion less every year on social expenditures than the average of OECD countries. This shortfall shows up especially in child care services, the public pension plan and disability insurance. In several areas, Canada's social programs are below international standards.

For all these reasons, like my party, the Bloc Quebecois, the labour movement and the people of my riding, Montréal-Nord, I oppose and strongly denounce the social security reform advocated by the federal government.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to see the United Nations continues to demonstrate our position to the rest of the world: Canada is the best country in the world in which to live.

When was the last time the government gave the opposition a chance to discuss social policy reform? When was the last time any reform policy met the approval of 91 per cent of the population? When was the last time one year after coming to power a Prime Minister enjoyed 42 per cent popular support, personal support? When was the last time the opposition leader received only 7 per cent popular support?

Obviously, that says something about the good job the government is doing.

This morning I was in my riding of Don Valley North. We just had the ground breaking ceremonies for one of the projects that will create jobs in my riding. It is one of four projects and it will create about 111 brand new jobs. These people will have food on their tables. They will be able to feed their children, not go on welfare or UI. That is the job the government is doing to provide Canadians better opportunities and a better future.

The previous government had a committee, as was referred to earlier, which was to redefine poverty, especially poverty among children. The way the committee wanted to do it was to redefine the whole income process so, poof, in one sentence it would take away 50 per cent of poverty among children. That is not the way we are going to do business. We want to listen to other Canadians so they have a positive input and not be negative about Canada. We want to change the system the best way we know how. That is how we are going to do it.

I have not heard anything from hon. members opposite that is positive about Canada, always negative and negative. I want to repeat my colleague's statement, they always see the glass half empty. We see the glass half full and we are going to fill it all the way up.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was positive like my colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois; we want to maintain the social programs Canada has. The only problem we have with the party opposite is that we want to finance them by taking money where it can be found, from the rich, family trusts and tax shelters. This is the money that must be used to fund social programs. We are very positive on that.

The UN has declared Canada to be the best country in the world; I think that the UN is taking a macro-economic view, but if the UN looks at Canada today, it must realize that there are huge variations. When I came to Canada 20 years ago, it was a more egalitarian society. Today, the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer. Among these poor people are the children whom the hon. member mentioned. But there are poor children in Canada because there are poor families, parents without work, women who are disadvantaged in society; that is the cause of child poverty.

I think that we are very positive and during the consultation, we will make suggestions and a great contribution to the development of human resources, but on the good side, not in the direction the government is going.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to discuss the impact of the social program reform for women. As the Official Opposition critic for the status of women, I will specifically deal with the impact of the proposals tabled by the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The discussion paper includes several measures which are totally unacceptable to Canadians. The first one relates to the UI program. The proposed reform will result in reduced UI benefits for women. Indeed, if a person living with another one loses his job, the benefits paid to that person will be reduced when his spouse earns a good salary. Since, according to statistics, women earn about 70 per cent of what men make, they will be directly affected by that measure, because their benefits will be diminished and may even be reduced to nil.

This proposal is totally unacceptable. How can we implement such a policy and claim at the same time, on the international scene, that we promote the right of women to economic equality, as the Canadian government did at the Nairobi conference and will do again this fall in Beijing?

This is an insidious form of discrimination. Either we really try to promote the right of women to equality by ensuring that domestic policies are fair and take into account the situation of women, or else we stop claiming to be a world leader in that field. The government should make up its mind. At the very least, it should ensure that it does not increase, through irresponsible policies, women's dependence on men, thus perpetuating a context which is conducive to violence and exploitation.

Another proposal in the minister's discussion paper aims at reducing access to benefits. Under this proposal, people who are frequently unemployed, mainly those who have insecure jobs and many women are in this category, would see their benefits reduced. Again, this would primarily affect women, since they hold most of the seasonal jobs.

The document raises another question regarding unemployment insurance. I am referring to contributions made to the program. Indeed, one wonders if women who are ineligible for benefits because of their spouses' incomes will be forced to continue to contribute to the UI program, thus putting an even greater burden on the family income. In our opinion, this would be a hidden increase in the tax burden and would violate the promises made by the current Prime Minister.

Let us now turn to another aspect of the reform which deserves a very close look, namely the financing of post-secondary education. Here again, women are experiencing a setback. On October 6, the minister stated: "Let us put a lot more money back into the system. Let us make a much broader, wider system of grants and loans available to students of all kinds everywhere. They can get access to our system on a basis where they can repay the money based on their incomes".

A reduction in the transfer payments to the provinces will have a direct impact on provincial governments. These governments will have to choose between dealing with this new tax burden or transferring it to the universities. Either we increase taxes to pay the higher costs or the universities will have to significantly raise tuition fees, which will increase the students' level of indebtedness. This would be a setback, especially in Quebec, where we have succeeded in helping poorer students to attend college or university. Also, this will have a direct impact on women. As we know, women are poorer than men.

If we go back to the system where only the rich can afford post-secondary education, the percentage of female university students and graduates will drop considerably.

You do not have to be a statistician to know that the level of education is directly related to the level of income. Is this how we will reduce the dropout rate, by dashing the hopes of poorer students wanting to go to university and to improve their lot? Is

this how the Minister of Human Resources Development will improve economic opportunities for women?

I think the minister will only encourage students to increase their indebtedness level in order to be able to further their education. This is how we will end up with a two-tier university system like in the United States: a classy private system and a poor public one. There are no projects, guidelines or instructions on expanding day-care services, except for a statement that eventually, resources will be invested in this area. This is a major omission, and it reflects this government's failure to consider the daily needs of women.

How can women expect to go back to work or function satisfactorily in the work place, when every day they are faced with the problem of a shortage of day-care for their children? Women would have to earn at least $10 per hour to be able to pay for day-care and the transportation costs involved when a woman works and has children. Women would have to earn more than $10 an hour, so they can afford satisfactory day-care for their children while they are at work.

Many women, especially single mothers, will leave their jobs or will not be promoted because they do not have access to day-care or their incomes are not sufficient. One wonders what this government's priorities are. Are they about buying missiles for $400,000 each, so the Canadian army can make a good showing at competitions in Florida, or intercepting private communications through the Communications Security Establishment, an activity estimated to cost a modest $250 million annually?

Will the Minister of Human Resources Development show more concern about programs financing than his leader, who said he was not worried about the expenditures cleverly hidden in the Public Accounts? Would there not be a case for investing in our children's future rather than in unproductive activities? Where are this government's priorities? What needs is it willing to finance? One also wonders why, in preparing its reform proposals, the government failed to consider the unequal economic status of men and women and try to correct it.

We condemn these reform proposals which are a disaster for female workers, students and women who are frequently unemployed, proposals that contain no job creation strategy. Women need well-paying, steady jobs, but the only job creation measure the government has introduced since it was elected, the infrastructures program, has failed to increase women's participation in the labour market since these jobs did not draw on women's more traditional skills.

Women do not need any more talk about training, when training is a dead end since there are no jobs available. Women need real social reform, with measures that will help make them equal economic partners, not measures that merely consolidate the usual pattern of dependency and dropping out. Mr. Minister, some major changes will be necessary if women are to get their rightful place in the labour market.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General]

Mr. Speaker, precisely, as the member for Quebec mentioned, I believe that the aim of this exercise, this opinion poll, this Canada-wide consultation is to see if we can find solutions to some rather pressing problems. One of the problems she talked about is the situation of single mothers. Very often, what they earn is not enough to provide for their children.

I believe that there is a lot to do in this area and I am the first one to say that women have been dealt a raw deal by the present system, an opinion which I think is shared by most members of this House. Women are penalized if they want to get a job or train in order to find a better job.

I would like to know if the member recognizes that, at least, we are trying to help women with their job search so that they can have a decent income.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, maybe the government thinks it is making an effort. But between its rhetoric and reality, there is a world of difference. I believe that we must be wary of some of the proposals put forward in the working paper, especially with respect to women. I believe that when you revert to taking into account the spouse's salary to determine eligibility to unemployment insurance, this is a real step backward.

I believe that if this suggestion is accepted by the Liberal government, we will not be helping women. Most frequently unemployed people are women, therefore this is what I call a double standard. On one hand, the government allows tax havens such as family trusts, and on the other, it says that it is going to go on a witch hunt to catch unemployed women, to see if they are not dipping two or three times in the unemployment insurance pot, in which case they will get cut off. They will no longer be eligible.

With respect to Quebec, there is another side to the story. I believe that the real objective of the Liberal government is to get involved in job training. In Quebec, there is a consensus. All stakeholders, including the Bélanger-Campeau Commission, the unions, political parties, the Conseil du patronat, agree that Quebec should manage its own job training. This is an expensive bureaucracy for the federal government and Quebec, both in terms of money and time.

I do not believe that the Liberal government will be going in that direction. Quebec's unemployment rate has doubled since 1970. The Liberal government is pursuing the same policy as the Conservatives who lost the elections because of it. They wanted to make cuts in unemployment insurance, and reform social programs, but the Liberal Party promised jobs, jobs, jobs. This is where the Liberal Party is heading in the wrong direction. It should be offering to stimulate the economy, to stimulate business in order to create jobs.

Obviously, if the unemployment rate has doubled since 1970, it is because there are no jobs. What are we going to do with the frequently unemployed? We are going to penalize them. We are going to turn them into second-class unemployed workers, and women will be particularly penalized by this suggestion.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is not correct to say that we want to penalize the unemployed. I believe that the role of any government is to find work for Canadians, to make education accessible, to improve the situation of the neediest, like single mothers, and to ensure a more prosperous future for their children.

Once again, what we hear from the Bloc Quebecois is the same old tune. They want the government to stop interfering with provincial programs.

I will not say anything against the Quebec Government or its Department of Education. I did it before and I will have further opportunities to do so. The only question we should ask ourselves is: "What matters for people in a difficult situation?" It is not whether their case is being considered by a provincial civil servant or a federal civil servant. What matters to people is to have access to programs, to have a chance, to know that constructive measures to stimulate the economy are being taken. What matters to people, and in particular the neediest-and I believe that the Liberals always tried to help the neediest-is to be able to re-enter the work force.

I must, unfortunately, repeat that when the hon. member says that this is a problem of overlapping, of federal interference, she is a victim of her party's propaganda.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not at all surprised at the comments of the hon. member for Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine. I think there was a consensus in Quebec on education and occupational training from people with high credibility. This issue has nothing to do with political allegiance. I was naming all the stakeholders from the political, educational and labour communities and we all agree in Quebec that education and vocational training should be under Quebec's jurisdiction.

Civil servants told me that no one could understand a thing about the alignment of federal and provincial programs. We can see that the hon. member did not often have to look for a job and was never forced into the maze of programs delivered by Quebec and Ottawa.

One of the programs offered by the federal government, before the training program starts, is a needs analysis. It so happened that there was a two-year delay before it could be implemented and when we were about to start, the needs had changed and there were no more participants. During all this time, the people had not worked. So you can certainly not blame this on ill will on the part of the Bloc Quebecois if we do not understand.

We were elected with a majority in our ridings to defend Quebec's interests and I think, in this case, it means to repatriate our money.

I have not talked about transfers to provinces. The government wants to cut transfers so that the onus will be on the provinces to manage this cut-rate unemployment. The provinces will again be the ones to pick up the tab. And we all know that when provinces go broke, they turn to municipalities.

Therefore, I think that if provinces were to manage their own programs, the constituents and the public would really know who the culprit is. Now the federal and provincial governments are passing the buck back and forth.