Debates of Nov. 21st, 1994

Members Of Parliament Pensions

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister in his Liberal red ink book had promised to reform the MPs pension fund. While in opposition the Prime Minister was concerned that this issue was of such importance he wanted to recall Parliament to end double dipping and establish an age requirement with respect to the collection of pensions.

Today 46 more Liberal trough feeders are joining the crew. The golden pension for these 46 will cost Canadian taxpayers almost $1 million when they leave Parliament.

The government had to borrow $158 million to top up the pension plan in 1992. The Prime Minister should end this lunacy and live up to his promises of past and present. Regardless of what his 46 new trough feeders think, he should make any new pension reform retroactive to election day, October 25, 1993.

International Trade

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, Liberal members have decided to resurrect the third option favoured by the Trudeau government to reduce U.S. influence on the Canadian economy. The majority report's recommendation to make the Asia-Pacific region Canada's export market par excellence is the one that will be debated and that has been submitted to the government.

People will start wondering why the government did not concentrate on developing our trade relations with the United States now that NAFTA has been ratified.

My question is directed to the Prime Minister. Does he endorse the misgivings of his members who see trade relations with the United States as a problem rather than a benefit, and should we see this as lingering Liberal opposition to the free trade agreement?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, certainly not. However, everyone realizes that the Pacific is becoming increasingly important. At the APEC Conference held in Jakarta, where the United States and Canada were represented, everyone was in favour of free trade in that area, because that is where the world's population and economic growth are concentrated. And that is why Canada wants to participate. In fact, the Americans do as well. This will not affect our trade relations with the United States. There are considerable opportunities there for Canadians and Canadian industry. I think this was a joint decision by all Canadians, since nine Premiers representing three political parties were there, and they all agreed with our decision to take advantage of expanding markets in the Pacific to create jobs in Canada.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister knows perfectly well that 80 per cent of Canadian exports, and a little more last month, go to the United States, while the figure for Asia is about 7 or 8 per cent.

That being the case, I would ask him whether he endorses the suggestion made by members of the committee who, now that NAFTA has been ratified, recommend eliminating trade commissioner posts in the United States and Mexico.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, we signed NAFTA, and I have had discussions with, for instance, the President of Chile and the President of Mexico, and in those discussions we supported the inclusion of Chile in NAFTA, because we believe it is important

to have more than just three countries in this association, and we will definitely talk about this at the summit next month in Miami.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, we do not need good intentions. We need concrete action on government policies. I would ask the Prime Minister whether he does not consider it essential to maintain the network of Canadian trade commissioners in the United States in order to support the efforts of Canadian businesses, especially SMEs that want to take advantage of new markets that have opened up as a result of NAFTA.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade is always looking at our country's needs everwhere in the world. Of course with the restriction that every department is facing at this time there is a review of all the posts that are open. We will keep those that are absolutely needed in accordance with the amount of money we can spend.

There is no such proposition whereby we want to reduce the level of trade with the United States. At the same time we want to increase trade with the Pacific rim. Our economy will benefit through good trade relations with the United States and better relations than now with the Pacific where the growth and potential is at this time.

Matthew Coon Come

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, last Friday in Washington, the Grand Chief of the Grand Council of the Crees, Matthew Coon Come, continued his systematic campaign to denigrate Quebec in the United States, accusing Quebec of racism towards the Crees. In the same speech, he referred to the James Bay Agreement as an instrument for oppression and dispossession.

Does the Prime Minister dissocate himself from Mr. Coo Come's untruthful remarks? Does he intend to instruct the Canadian embassy in Washington to intervene and set the record straight concerning the Crees' situation in Northern Quebec?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I did not read this speech by the chief of the Crees of New Quebec. I believe that it is not the government's role to go and make speeches whenever someone says something we do not quite agree with.

This Cree chief makes speeches; he has opinions and he expresses them. This does not mean that we must agree with him. In a country where freedom of speech exists, all citizens are entitled to express their own point of view. When someone says things with which the Bloc Quebecois does not agree, it can respond. It has the right to do so. If the Liberals do not agree, they can do the same.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we noticed that the Prime Minister neither completely agreed nor completely disagreed with Mr. Coon Come. It would be interesting if he could tell us what he agrees with.

Would the Prime Minister not agree that instead of hunting separatists, his ambassador in Washington should spend more time putting the facts straight, since the Cree defamation campaign is bad not only for the image of Quebec in the U.S., but also for the image of Canada as a whole?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I was saying earlier that there is freedom of speech in Canada as well as in the United States. No one, anywhere, is supposed to have his or her speeches cleared by the ambassador. People make speeches and if the hon. member does not agree with them, he can answer them. The audience of the Cree grand chief is known. The hon. member can write and put the facts straight.

I know that Crees in Canada have many long-held grievances. I was Minister of Indian Affairs and I know that the citizens of the First Nations have been complaining for a long time. They did not always get justice, and they have reason to complain.

As for his choice of words, when I was minister, I was the target of some inflated vocabulary but I am not the one to rescind their freedom of expression.

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, today is the biggest day on the government's parliamentary calendar trough day, when over 50 MPs qualify for lifetime gold plated pensions, well over 80 per cent paid for by the taxpayers of Canada.

For over one year the Prime Minister has promised to allow MPs to opt out of these obscene pensions and to make private arrangements on the same basis as other Canadians.

Does the Prime Minister agree that MPs pensions should be brought in line with private sector standards or not?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we said clearly in the red book that we would deal with some problems regarding pensions of members of Parliament. We talked about double dipping and the situation that prevails when some retire very early in life and get a very big pension.

These two problems are mentioned in the red book and will be corrected when the President of the Treasury Board will introduce legislation within a month or two in this House.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister mentions correcting the age problem. It has been suggested that the government may raise the age of eligibility for the MP pension to 55. On this basis alone, the MP pension would still be more generous than 99.9 per cent of all private sector plans.

Will the Prime Minister admit that such tinkering is totally inadequate to deal with the problem?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have always defended the compensation that members of Parliament receive.

I understand the Reform Party believes that they are overpaid. I do not understand why. They look at themselves and they think they are overpaid.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the Prime Minister's salary were tied to the financial performance of the Government of Canada, he would be overpaid by about half a billion dollars a year.

In recent years both the Alberta and Prince Edward Island governments have made significant reforms to their pensions, reforms that affected past members already benefiting from the excesses they had voted themselves.

Will the Prime Minister commit in principle to applying any reform to MP pensions to past MPs as well as to sitting MPs?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

I have to smile, Mr. Speaker, because some of these members were grandstanding when they offered to cut their pay by 10 per cent. Now they say that they have not received any credit for that so they will stop. I think they are just grandstanding again. The people of Canada understand that that party has been a complete failure since the election.

Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-Jean

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Last week, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs stated that, with only minor modifications, the facilities at Kingston would be able to accommodate all Canadian Forces officer cadets as early as next year. For this reason, he dismissed the proposal for a gradual transition that the mayor of Saint-Jean had made and that was perfectly acceptable to the Quebec government.

Can the minister tell us if there is any truth to the rumour that the government plans to build additional facilities next year to accommodate some 700 officer cadets to meet the requirements resulting from the closing of the military college in Saint-Jean?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the government of Quebec keeps playing with the lives of members of the community in Saint-Jean and with those of the teachers.

We have an agreement in hand, an agreement signed by both levels of government, ensuring that the college in Saint-Jean can survive, while the community continues to prosper. There are no hidden costs. All costs are in the open and there are substantial savings to be made by concentrating our military college operations in Kingston. The situation remains unchanged. All I am asking from the Quebec government is that it honour its signature on this document, which constitutes an agreement in due form between the governments of Quebec and Canada.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if I interpret correctly what the minister said, additional facilities will indeed be built next year. That is what I understood.

Does the minister recognize that, in spite of the major outlay of capital forecast by the government to increase the accommodation capacity of the college in Kingston, existing facilities will definitely not meet the needs during the transition period, while the officer cadets population is brought down from 1,200 to 900, this being the opinion of the commanding officer of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean himself, Colonel Parisien?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, all of the financial facts dealing with the closure of the two colleges were tabled at the standing committee some months ago. They were not challenged by members of the opposition. They were not challenged by other members of the public.

There were expenditures that were authorized by the previous government to begin construction in 1995. These had nothing whatsoever to do with the consolidation of the colleges into Kingston but had to do with the need for ongoing repairs and new facilities that would have been required in any event.

With respect to some allegations that we will have to build a dormitory, that is entirely false because there are enough dormitory beds available at CFB Kingston to accommodate the overflow until we get to a steady state of about 700 to 800 cadets, which will be within three or four years.

Apex Ski Resort

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, for almost three weeks now three Indian bands have illegally blocked the road to the Apex ski resort near Penticton, British Columbia. Two hundred and fifty people have been denied their right to work. The owners of the resort are facing financial ruin and the 300 homeowners in the Apex area are subjected to daily harassment.

Feelings in the non-native and the native communities are running high and the battle lines are being drawn in a dispute that I fear is headed for violence. Yet the minister of Indian affairs has refused to act.

Will the minister live up to his constitutional responsibilities and take immediate action to end this dispute peacefully?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member stated this has been going on for about three weeks. The deputy minister, John Walsh, who is also my nephew by marriage, by Ojibway custom, has been meeting with senior officials of the band. Some proposals have been put forward. I am not at liberty to state what they are. I do not think negotiations are going well and the province of B.C. is bringing injunctive action this morning.

I do not know the results of the injunctive action. My hon. friend and I will probably hear at the same time and we will know the results of the injunction later today.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, this situation is reaching near-boiling point and something is going to happen unless the minister takes immediate action.

This dispute over the Apex resort is only a symptom of a deeper long-standing problem. This year federal government funding to the Penticton Indian Band is more than $2.5 million. In spite of denials by the band, some of this money is being spent to pay those manning the illegal blockades $10 an hour. Meanwhile the 250 employees at the resort are paying a terrible price and some have to draw UI at the taxpayers' expense.

Will the minister of Indian affairs immediately suspend all funding transfers to the Penticton Indian Band, as he did recently with the Lower Similkameen Band election dispute, until the illegal roadblocks are removed and the band sits down at the bargaining table?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, there is a man in my friend's riding named Tom Landecker. He wrote a letter. I adopt the method he is proposing. He uses the ski area. He says: "Every time I do so I am reminded of the 100-year history of the relations between our two communities, a history littered with broken promises and missed opportunities".

At the end of it he says: "The only resolution to this situation is through mediation of the provincial government". I think it is appropriate and is something that is being done. If it breaks down then there is the recourse to the court, which is happening as we speak.