Debates of Nov. 22nd, 1994

Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-Jean

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, there are a number of factual errors in the hon. member's question.

First of all, any new construction that RMC was authorized by the previous government and amounts to normal replacement. That construction was scheduled to start in 1995. There will be no new construction required as a result of the consolidation process of the two colleges announced in the budget.

Second, when the hon. member talks about the Auditor General's report, and I have not had a chance to read it, he is really mixing apples and oranges. Whatever the Auditor General had to say in that area does not bear direct relationship to what is at hand with the very serious matter of St. Jean.

If the member really wanted to give hope to the people of St. Jean, the professors and other employees who work at this very noble institution, he would encourage the Government of Quebec to accept the proposal negotiated by my colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. That would bring them hope because the college would stay open as a civilian institution.

Auditor General's Report

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government spends more money on social programs than anything else. The Minister of Human Resources Development is running around the country discussing social reform. Yet the Auditor General in his report today says that a central concern in our study is that Parliament lacks important information on the performance and effects of existing social programs. Canadians do not even have the numbers, the actual costs and values received, not for existing social programs nor proposed reform.

Will the Prime Minister implement the Auditor General's recommendations and give Parliament and Canadians the financial information necessary to make meaningful choices on social policy reform?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member well knows, over the past several weeks the Department of Human Resources Development has tabled a number of very extensive supplementary papers that detail in a very wide range the impacts of a variety of options and choices.

I would be very glad to submit to the hon. member copies of those papers so that he would be fully informed, although I can assure the House that every single member of Parliament has received on his or her desk copies of those supplementary papers that fully comply with the kind of requirements the Auditor General put forward.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Including technical reports as well. The weakness of the minister's answer reveals the fundamental weakness in the government's approach to social programs. That is an unwillingness and inability to assess fully the real costs, the long term costs on what is proposed. Weak on numbers. Sauce in the heart but soft in the head.

Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that this is the fundamental weakness of the red ink book? It is the fundamental weakness of the minister's green paper. It is the fundamental weakness of the government. Will he commit to start doing something about that weakness?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should know that the Auditor General prepares his analyses and assessments months and many times a year before the actual developments and events take place.

I certainly agree that the Auditor General has clearly demonstrated in his report the fundamental need for social reform. He has pointed out how many of the programs have not worked well, how disincentives have crept into programs, how there is a dependency growing up. The Auditor General has underlined as clearly as anybody in this country has the need for social reform. The problem is that members of the Reform Party are opposing social reform because they do not want to see those changes take place.

I would seriously suggest that if the hon. member was really paying attention to the Auditor General's report he should be applauding this government for undertaking social reform.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

The Reform Party opposes tinkering with social reform, not real reform.

The Auditor General says in black and white what Reformers have maintained for years, that increased costs in social services since 1975 have made them, and I use his words, "financially unsustainable from tax revenues".

This is a broader question than just the minister's department. Will the Prime Minister come clean with the Canadian people and tell them that with current deficit and debt levels federal social programs are financially unsustainable and that is the reason for having real reform rather than tinkering with the social programs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, one can only draw this conclusion from the hon. member's questions and general responses.

The Reform Party is not interested in meaningful reform. It is interested in mean-minded reform. It simply wants to cut, cut, cut. It does not want to change the programs to get people back

to work. It does not want to change programs to help children out of poverty. It does not want to change programs to ensure that people have a greater opportunity. It simply wants to slash the programs.

Mr. Speaker, that is not the way Liberals do things.

Canadian National

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport.

As the Auditor General continues to reveal cases of wasteful spending in the federal government, we learn that the president of CN, Mr. Paul Tellier, who receives an annual salary of $345,000, in addition to an annual allowance of about $52,000, received from his employer an interest-free loan of $432,000 to buy a house for which he paid $345,000, when he was transferred from Ottawa to Montreal.

Does the minister feel that at a time of budgetary restraint, it was appropriate for CN to grant Mr. Tellier an interest-free loan of $432,000 without a mortgage guarantee, in order to camouflage this transaction?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the arrangement the hon. member has alluded to with respect to the interest free loan is not one that comes directly under the responsibility of the Government of Canada. The remuneration for the president of CN is a matter for the Government of Canada and it is set by order in council.

With respect to any arrangements for the financing of a home, that is a matter between the president of Canadian National and the board of CN.

The hon. member knows this is a precedent which has been set over a number of years with CN. It also occurs quite frequently in the private sector.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as far as I know, the Canadian government is the sole shareholder of CN. Since the loan to Mr. Tellier is $87,000 more than the price he paid for the house, does this mean that CN also lent this money interest-free and without guarantees, so that Mr. Tellier could spend it on redecorating the house?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, the practice at CN which is a crown corporation is compatible with what has gone on in the private sector. There is also precedent at CN.

With respect to the question dealing with the evaluation of the property, I will see if we can clarify the situation and find out if it resembles in any respect what taxpayers have to do with Mr. Parizeau's home in Quebec City.

Auditor General's Report

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was shocked, as I am sure you were, to read in the Auditor General's report that the national defence department is the only department that keeps track of the implementation of the Auditor General's recommendations and it implemented only 56 per cent of the 1990-92 recommendations.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Will he ensure that each government department from now on will comply with the Auditor General's recommendations to ensure that the taxpayers get fair value for the money they pay to this government.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last year the Auditor General pointed out a tax problem that cost Canadian taxpayers more than $1 billion. This year the Auditor General has identified potential savings in excess of $1 billion again, including one point where over 10 years we spent $1 million to design a boat that was never built.

Can we be assured that all of the recommendations of the Auditor General will be implemented forthwith so that from now on we know that we will never see the type of report coming out again that shows waste and mismanagement right across government?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I understand that the very diligent minister of fisheries oversaw the final phase-out of the project.

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance.

In his report tabled today in the House, the Auditor General indicates that tax revenues totalling $6.5 billion have yet to be recovered by the federal government, in addition to accounts receivable totalling $1 billion for the GST.

Does the Minister of Finance agree that before he considers taxing private health plans and RRSPs, he should first take steps to recover these billions of dollars in accounts receivable?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the House that we will collect the vast majority of the taxes owing and we will do it with interest.

Canadians should know that the accounts receivable of Revenue Canada are not some fund which is available to further reduce the deficit. They are funds taken into account in the government accounting by the Minister of Finance in budgetary projections.

The total accounts receivable stopped growing last year and is now declining. I believe that we will continue to be able to reduce that sum.

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, $5.4 billion in taxes is owed by 400,000 high-income taxpayers.

What explanation does the Minister of National Revenue have for the fact that so many high-income taxpayers continue to avoid the tax man and keep putting off paying their taxes? Will the minister promise to put in place a system that will accelerate the processing of these accounts receivable?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, the member appears not to have understood that the accounts receivable are funds collected by the federal government, by Revenue Canada. It is not some fund out there of uncollected money. We constantly collect the accounts receivable.

I believe this amount of outstanding taxes will continue to decline as the economic recovery continues. As Canadians continue to regain confidence in the government and confidence in the improvements in the economy that has been brought about since the government came in, we will see the amount of money that is owed to Revenue Canada declining substantially as the recession of the past and the past government gives way to the recovery of the present government.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General's report today states that during the past number of years the Canadian government donated $3.1 billion to the Governments of Poland and Egypt to help with their debt reduction payments.

Does the foreign affairs minister agree with this sort of program for the future, considering our current financial situation?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada has obligations to fulfil. As members of the G-7 it is important that we fulfil these obligations.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the Prime Minister.

When the red ink book talks about reducing the debt and deficit was it referring to Poland and Egypt or Canada? Canadians would really like to know the answer.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are on target. We said the deficit in relation to GDP would be 3 per cent by the third year of our mandate. The good policies of the Minister of Finance will make sure that we meet our target.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the President of the Treasury Board.

The Auditor General's report tells us once again that the government is not running a tight ship. According to the report, since 1987, the Public Service Compensation System has cost the government $170 for each of its 200,000 employees in the Public Service, while the unit cost for provincial governments is between $50 and $70.

How can the President of the Treasury Board tolerate the fact that the federal government's management of its compensation system is so costly and inefficient and that the government absolutely refuses to examine many other cases of wasteful spending in its administration, something the Official Opposition has been asking for the past year?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, I was not around for some of the years hon. members opposite were. Maybe they know about those practices back in the 1980s and early 1990s.

The government is determined to clean up those practices and to make sure the government is open and transparent and manages its affairs in a cost efficient way.

Certainly we want to study the Auditor General's recommendations. We want to be able to implement them and make sure that Canadians are getting value for the tax dollars they are giving to us, whether it relates to the public service or any other expenditure. We want to be cost efficient and effective in the use of taxpayers' dollars.