Debates of Nov. 23rd, 1994

Matthew Coon-Come

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have to repeat what I said.

There was a debate in Washington among Canadians invited by a group to debate the situation of Quebec and Canada. The native leader spoke strongly. He claimed today that he did not attribute his words to the premier of Quebec. The premier defended himself today. We have debates like that all the time. The situation was rectified that very moment by the people there. The embassy felt there was nothing to do at the moment because other Canadian citizens had defended the Canadian population and in particular the Quebec population.

Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-Jean

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in his report, the Auditor General mentions the lack of thoroughness and the weakness of the data used to justify the closure of military bases. He refers, among other examples, to the base in Portage-La Prairie, Manitoba, where the costs related to the closure were significantly underestimated by the Department of National Defence. In the end, this measure resulted in savings of $170 million, instead of the anticipated $411 million.

Is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs aware that the very same scenario is being repeated with the closure of the military college in Saint-Jean, because he significantly underestimates the costs of transferring the operations to Kingston, and does the minister realize that he will never reach the

objective of $23 million promised by the Department of National Defence?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the period of examination of national defence covered by the Auditor General was mainly for the time before this government was elected.

In discussing the base closures at Portage la Prairie and Summerside the Auditor General certainly had good reasons for the claims he made. We did not repeat those mistakes when we closed bases earlier this year. We were much more meticulous about the cost savings that would accrue. Of course we have stood by those figures as they particularly apply to the question raised by the hon. member for the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the Auditor General of Canada has demonstrated that the Department of National Defence mismanages all of its capital assets and has a poor record regarding the closure of military bases, does the minister recognize that his only argument to justify the closing of the military college in Saint-Jean, namely to make savings, is no longer valid, and does he agree that he should review his decision and take into account the constructive suggestions made by stakeholders?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. member did not hear my previous answer. I stated this yesterday and we have stated it before. We believe absolutely that the financial reasons certainly justify the closure of the two military colleges.

When the hon. member opposite came to the defence committee sometime last spring he was given all the details and he never challenged the facts. In fact once he got them he left and ran away. He did not even challenge the facts.

With respect to the CMR there is no question that our financial figures are exact. With respect to the general question on base closures the department learned from some of the mistakes that were made by the previous government. That is why even though the painful decisions taken in February had to go on, they have gone on reasonably smoothly in the rest of the country.

Government Appointments

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in a few short months the contest between federalism and separatism will begin in earnest. Surely the Prime Minister would agree that now is the time for federalism to put its best foot forward, not its worst. Federalism does not put its best foot forward through partisan, patronage appointments to key federal institutions, such as Rideau Hall and the Canadian Senate.

Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that continuation of the Mulroney practice of high level patronage appointments to federal offices discredits the federal system? Will he promise to abandon this practice before it infects his entire government?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I should reply to an attack on the Governor General designate. The man served his country for about 23 years and is highly respected everywhere. He is the first Atlantic Canadian to be appointed as Governor General.

Ask anybody to look at the quality of the people I have appointed. For example this morning I named Jean-Robert Gauthier, who is not a member of Parliament any more, as a senator. He served for 22 years as a member of Parliament. He is the one who proposed a bill to have the Auditor General report four times a year. I was somewhat sorry he accepted the offer I made to him because I think he still would have been very good serving here, but after 22 years he accepted that appointment.

This man had a great contest in the House. It was good for you, Mr. Speaker, that it was by two votes he did not become the Speaker. A lot of people thought we had two great candidates and he lost by only two votes. He is a very respected Canadian who will make a great senator.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[The Speaker]

I did not know that I had won by two votes.

My colleagues, may I very gently remind you, and this is not in the form of a lecture in any way, that some of our institutions should not be reflected upon negatively, nor I believe should we attack each other's character. I wonder if we might keep this in mind with both the questions and answers.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister defends partisan patronage appointments to the highest political offices. In so doing he is sending all the wrong signals to his ministers responsible for lower level appointments. He is saying it is okay for the immigration minister to make patronage appointments to the IRB. He is saying it is okay for the Solicitor General to make patronage appointments to the National Parole Board.

Will the Prime Minister change the signals he is sending to those ministers and rescind his latest patronage appointments so that Canadians can believe he is serious about restoring integrity to government?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Constitution of Canada has vested the Prime Minister of Canada with the responsibility to fill the jobs in the Senate. Of course when I name someone, I make a decision. It is always a patronage appointment.

When my predecessor, Mr. Trudeau, selected the father of the leader of the Reform Party, it was a political patronage appointment when he became a senator. If the leader of the Reform Party does not want me to keep that privilege, he had a great occasion, when we voted in the referendum on the Charlottetown accord, to make the Senate elected. This gentleman voted against having an elected Senate.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister appears to believe that continued use of partisan patronage at the highest levels of government is somehow compatible with his pledge to integrity in government. He appears to believe that patronage and integrity can live in the same government and dine at the same table.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Who, if anyone, has he consulted on the ethics of this matter? Has he consulted the ethics counsellor? Did he call former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney on the phone? Who, if anyone, has advised him that patronage and integrity can coexist within a government?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have a little problem. If someone is a Liberal or supports the Liberal Party he is disqualified. Then 63 per cent of the Canadian people are disqualified because they are Liberal.

It is not very good for my humility, but if I were to discard all the people who have expressed confidence in this Prime Minister, then 75 per cent of the Canadian people would be disqualified.

I ask everybody to look at the quality of the people I have appointed. That is the criteria. Each one is a great citizen of Canada, making a contribution in his or her own province. Jean-Robert Gauthier has been one of the greatest defenders of the French fact in Canada. The Governor General will prove to be a great choice that the Queen has accepted.

[The Speaker]

This has to be Wednesday.

Auditor General's Report

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of National Defence.

The Auditor General is critical of the Department of National Defence because of its ad hoc approach to closing military bases, and I quote: "The budgetary process provides no opportunity to prepare the labour force or the communities for change, and to plan a strategy for government assistance". That was a reference to the 1994 Budget, not the budget of the previous government.

Will the Minister for National Defence admit that these closings are the result of ad hoc political decision-making that is having a harsh impact on local communities, since it does not include a strategy to help them diversify their economy?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ.

First, the Liberal Party in its red book called for a cut in defence spending. We acted on that in the budget. It was done in the budget because we felt we had to discharge our promise right away for the tax year beginning April 1, 1994.

The Auditor General is a very eminent individual and has done a lot of work. We work with him closely at national defence. I believe he acknowledges the fact that we are trying to improve on the suggestions he makes.

Without being disrespectful, I would say that the choice of whether or not we enact certain military expenditures in the budget or otherwise is a political decision made by the Government of Canada and not by the Auditor General.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I may remind the minister that the red book also talked about defence conversion and diversification, neither of which has been done.

Instead of being criticized again next year by the Auditor General's office for his ad hoc decision to close the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, would the minister not agree he should support the proposal by the mayor of Saint-Jean which provides for a transition period, in order to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I met the mayor of Saint-Jean today at noon to discuss his proposal. We agreed on the two main proposals: first, that CMR should be converted to civilian use, and second, that a period of transition is necessary to make CMR a post-secondary institution.

Having agreed on the principles, we concluded that the same principles formed the basis for the July 19 agreement. We both urge the Government of Quebec to accept the July 19 agreement

signed by the Quebec government, in order to put an end to the present uncertainty in the region.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday's Auditor General's report pointed out serious flaws within Correctional Service Canada.

One hundred and sixty violent offenders have slipped through the cracks and ended up on the street; those behind bars are costing Canadian taxpayers up to $80,000 per year each. Canadians are not getting good value for their tax dollars in a system that has serious and occasionally fatal flaws.

I ask the parliamentary secretary when Canadians can expect a corrections system that works for them instead of for the criminals.

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Secretary of State (Parliamentary Affairs) and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, as I answered yesterday, we welcome the recommendations of the Auditor General. We have already started to implement some of them.

Even though we admit that some persons have escaped from prison, we would like it if nobody escaped. However from April 1994 until today we have had only 76 escapees. Over the same period last year we had 147 escapees. I know that is 76 too many. We would like that figure to be zero. We are working toward that and I hope the member will co-operate with us.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. According to the Auditor General, the appointment process for the National Parole Board seems to put Canadians at even greater risk than corrections. Many full time appointees are ill prepared to do the job, much less the part time appointees.

Will the parliamentary secretary promise to put an end to political patronage on the National Parole Board and introduce a system based solely on professional skills and merit?

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Secretary of State (Parliamentary Affairs) and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, as we promised in the red book we have acted. The case is clear. Concerning the appointment of the chairman, the Solicitor General has gazetted the position. There was a special experienced panel that reviewed the candidate and the Solicitor General made the final review which resulted in a good appointment.

As a matter of fact, the Auditor General states in his report that it is a good system. We intend to continue with this new system which was implemented according to our red book promise.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The Auditor General finds it regrettable that the government is about to conduct a social program reform without first gathering all the information required to make informed choices. While the results of social programs cannot be prejudged, he said, available data is insufficient to use as a basis for a proper evaluation.

How can the Minister of Human Resources Development claim that Canadians can participate in a real debate on social program reform, while at the same time providing them with only partial, incomplete and insufficient information?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would look carefully at what the Auditor General said was a requirement for additional information, things on impact of seasonal work, premium reduction, the impact of various forms of cross subsidization and look at the paper that we tabled on November 14, she would find that all the information requested by the Auditor General, is contained in that report.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as the minister is prepared to conduct his social program reform on the basis of incomplete information, does he recognize that his sole objective, rather than to improve social programs, is in fact to make cuts in assistance programs for the disadvantaged?