Debates of Nov. 25th, 1994

Gun Control

[Hugh Hanrahan, Reform, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we know that there are approximately seven million legitimate gun owners in Canada and that the use of guns results in one of the safest, most thoroughly self-policed recreational activities anywhere.

To qualify for a purchase of a firearm or a hunting licence, Canadians must pass numerous examinations and training courses on firearms knowledge, safe firearms handling, wildlife identification and safe hunting procedures.

Handgun owners are required to undergo an even tougher application process and have rigid security restrictions. Yet despite all these controls, knee-jerk Liberalism has sprung into effect to establish even tougher gun laws when we know the problem is the criminal use of guns and not with the legal gun owners.

I challenge the Minister of Justice to do the right thing, which is to get tough on criminals and forget about creating laws that make criminals out of law-abiding citizens.

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, newspapers can be a useful cross-reference. Let us consider three stories carried by the Globe and Mail on November 16, 1994. All three related to spending abuses, all three connected by real estate and all three about the CBC.

In one story Keith Spicer, president of the CRTC, asked for the CBC to be given breathing space from the continuous rounds of budget cuts. Then the editorials ran a letter from the CBC's vice-president of finance as he attempted to defend the expenses of the CBC's broadcasting centre.

It is amazing how creative accounting can actually justify a yearly rental cost of almost $50 million which will balloon to over $200 million in the next 10 years, all of it taxpayers' money.

The third story revolved around the changes to CBC "Midday". Will we indeed see that program co-hosted out of Vancouver? At what cost? What will happen to the current cosy and expensive "Midday" studio at the broadcast centre in Toronto? More redundancy, more excuses, more expenditure abuse.

Hats off to my handy reference guide. It made my day.

Justice

[Margaret Bridgman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the issue of criminal responsibility in cases of extreme intoxication has been receiving a lot of attention lately.

Nicole Hilliard from Surrey wrote the following:

I am sure you are already familiar with the man from Alberta who went on a 30-hour drinking binge, then beat his wife up and was acquitted due to his mental state.

I ask: "Did anyone force this man to consume a bottle of rye, vodka, and several bottles of beer?"

If someone consumes too much alcohol, gets behind the wheel of a car, then kills someone, you can guarantee that no court in Canada would decide to acquit that person based on his or her drinking.

If this law is not changed we will see more and more individuals acquitted because criminals in Canada have avoided responsibility time and again thanks to the outdated criminal justice system. Laws like this one are completely unacceptable and insulting.

Reformers will continue to stand up for the rights of victims and push for changes to our justice system.

Mining Industry

[George S. Rideout, Liberal, Moncton, NB]

Mr. Speaker, today I would like to point out the importance of the mining industry in Canada.

The mining industry is a real economic generator in the country. For example, we owe 16 per cent of the country's exports to the mining industry. It accounts for 4.6 per cent of GDP and provides 100,000 high paying skilled jobs in areas of the country where there is otherwise very little economic activity.

We only have to cast our eyes about this room to recognize how important the mining industry is to our daily lives. While today's high tech and manufacturing industries rely to varying

degrees on the mining industry, the mining industry also incorporates much advanced technology in many of its processes.

We must properly recognize that the mining industry is important to our economic well-being and do what we can to keep mining in Canada.

``60 Minutes''

[John Loney, Liberal, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, recently American news magazine "60 Minutes" aired a story called the "Ugly Face of Freedom". After watching the show I was appalled at the story. Normally "60 Minutes" has very high journalistic standards. This time the standards were much lower.

The story focused on anti-Semitism in the Ukrainian city of Lvov. The story talked about right-wing political movements calling for a Ukraine populated by only ethnic Ukrainians. These right-wing splinter factions are also vehemently anti-Semitic, according to the "60 Minutes" story.

The rise of right wing politics is occurring all across Europe but the groups are small in numbers. The media likes to lionize these groups as they make good press, but in their efforts to attract viewers they have slandered Ukrainians everywhere.

Ukrainians both in Canada and in Ukraine denounce the rise of these radical hate groups and call upon "60 Minutes" to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The Environment

[Dianne Brushett, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the involvement of communities in restoring our environment is essential. Governments can show leadership and set the stage but partnerships with communities are crucial to achieving success.

Two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars was recently awarded by Environment Canada's Atlantic coastal action program for projects designed to improve the environment in five communities in the Atlantic provinces. In addition $100,000 has been allocated for four regional initiatives that will benefit all thirteen of the sites and their community groups.

The Atlantic coastal action program was established in direct response to local citizens' concerns. In my coastal communities the problems are polluted waterways, haphazard development and lack of concern for the environment.

I commend the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment on the success of her department's initiative in facilitating the Atlantic coastal action program. She is to be congratulated on recognizing the strength of communities in restoring the environment for everyone.

National Services Month

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the service sector is an integral part of the Canadian economy and for this reason November has been declared National Services Month. In 1993 service industries represented three-quarters of Canada's gross domestic product, amounting to $387 billion.

In my riding of London-Middlesex economic activity is generated by services such as banking, insurance, construction, transportation, utilities, communications, professional, consumer and services business. As a matter of fact service industries account for more than 78 per cent of total employment in Canada and account for seven out of ten jobs in each province.

I praise the efforts of the people who have contributed to the success of the service industry. I commend our government for its continued support of this important sector of our economy.

Central America

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, this morning I had the opportunity and the privilege of meeting with the Association of Central American Farmers Organizations for Co-Operation and Development.

This is an umbrella organization that seeks to promote the interests of small and medium sized farmers in Central America at regional and international levels. It has been on a tour of Canada to meet with Canadian farm leaders and policy makers and to promote a vision for the sustainable development of Central America.

I congratulate ASOCODE for its efforts. As it suggested, we must go beyond a bureaucratic level in a relationship with Central and Latin America. We must continue to further the efforts of the government in working at a political level and should expand to working with populist groups as well.

I found working with such groups extremely enlightening in developing understanding. I encourage all parliamentarians to focus some attention on the needs of Central America and what we have in common.

Employment

[Bonnie Hickey, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, in committee a member of Parliament made it clear that in hiring he asked potential employees if they were married. He also expressed concern that mothers might bring their parental responsibilities into the office which would impair their ability to do their job.

I am a mother and a wife. I am proud to say that the constituents of St. John's East do not feel the same way as my colleague from across the House. My constituents believe that I am capable of representing their views and fulfilling my job as a mother, and I am proud to do so.

The Economy

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Reform proposals for spending cuts of about $10 billion are politically courageous since they identify groups and institutions that will undoubtedly launch strong attacks and will paint Reform as lacking compassion.

However, we took these risks precisely because we are compassionate. If Canada will hit the financial wall, those cuts will look puny and the needy will have to suffer. We also use principles of fairness in our recommendations. We propose cuts at the top including politicians pensions and perks and cuts for private business as well as special interest groups.

Frankly and proudly the cuts are also based on a different vision of the role of government, one which gets government out of the lives of Canadians, encourages the family and free enterprise and reduces the power of publicly financed media elites.

Reform awaits anxiously the government's proposals that will slow down the debt clock which now is at $538,203,000,000.

Child Poverty

[Len Taylor, NDP, The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday Campaign 2000 released its fifth annual report card on this country's progress toward the goal of eliminating child poverty by the year 2000. In this International Year of the Family, the federal government has received a failing grade. Child poverty is on the increase. In this the fifth year of the anniversary of the House of Commons' unanimous motion to eliminate child poverty by the year 2000, there are about 331,000 more poor children today than there were five years ago.

Instead of dealing with the problem of child poverty, the Minister of Human Resources Development has set this country on a course that will leave children behind. It is time for all parliamentarians to support the recommendation of Campaign 2000, create jobs, raise corporate taxes and use social programs to redistribute the wealth. It is time for action.

National Defence

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, last night, on the French CBC program Le Point , Major Armstrong told us about another aspect of the unfortunate events which took place in Somalia and confirmed that Canadian soldiers had literally lured Somalis with water and food before capturing them and treating them in the way we have all heard about.

Responding to the demands of the Official Opposition, the defence minister decided to move up the inquiry on the incidents in Somalia and announced that it would begin early in the new year.

My question is for the Minister of Defence. Given the horror of these new revelations, why does the minister not initiate the public inquiry right now, so that the crimes committed in Somalia can be elucidated as soon as possible?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I answered a similar question from members of the Reform Party yesterday in the House of Commons.

It is very important to respect the judicial system and, on the basis of the legal counsel I received, I decided that it would be advisable to start the inquiry after the courts martial, but before the court martial disposes of the appeals.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since many very important facts were covered up in the first investigation on the events in Somalia, does the minister not agree that his duty requires him to launch the public inquiry immediately to get to the bottom of these events, thus eliminating or reducing the risk of undue pressure being brought to bear on potential witnesses in this affair?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, my duty is to respect the judicial system in this country.

I have said earlier that what is very important in dealing with these tragic events is to ensure that those people who have been accused are dealt with the in the proper way in front of the courts martial.

What I also said yesterday is that we believe that it would be appropriate to commence the inquiry after any disposition of further charges, there is one particular case that could go to a court martial, but before the appeals are concluded.

That means that in the early part of next year this inquiry which, I repeat, will be public, open and civilian, will get under way and will deal with all of the specific allegations that have been made.

I asked the chief of defence staff to remind members of the armed forces of the rules with respect to speaking on military matters and I do note that Major Armstrong taped the interview with Le Point about two or three days ago before I made this announcement yesterday.

I think the best situation now is to allow all complaints, all concerns by anyone in the forces or elsewhere to go to the inquiry when it starts in the new year.

[Translation]

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as for the constraints of the inquiry now under way and the trials, I will remind the minister that he has already taken a first step, at our request, and moved the inquiry ahead of any possible appeal process. We think that he should continue in this direction and instead of asking senior army officers to keep the military from talking about the events in Somalia, does the minister not believe that he should act as openly as possible and announce right now whether he intends to entrust the powers of a real commission of public inquiry to those who will have to investigate the situation in Somalia?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct one thing the hon. member said. The inquiry will not prejudice the appeals that will be going on perhaps at the same time.

With respect to the other part of the question, in terms of the conditions, the terms of reference of the inquiry, this question was posed last Friday by his colleague and these terms of reference are being worked on by the judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces and also the officials of the Department of Justice. Once we announce the composition of the inquiry, the head of the inquiry and the other board members, the terms of reference will also be announced.

Those terms of reference will be wide enough and broad enough to deal with all of the complaints made by people such as Major Armstrong and members of the opposition and other people in the country who feel that this particular matter is grave, and we agree, and has to be dealt with as expeditiously as possible.

Canadian Peacekeepers In Bosnia

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of National Defence.

It seems that this morning, a precarious cease-fire was concluded at Bihac, where 20 of the 55 Canadian peacekeepers are still being held hostage by Serb forces. This cease-fire should provide an opportunity for resumption of negotiations between the parties concerned and eventually lead to the resolution of this problem.

Could the Minister of National Defence tell us what the situation is now in Bihac and indicate the terms of this cease-fire?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I have no exact information on the terms of the cease-fire in Bihac. Perhaps I may point out that we only have five Canadians in Bihac. Most of the soldiers who are being detained, and there are 55, are based near Visoko, north of Sarajevo.

There are 55 Canadians currently being detained. Nothing has changed on their situation. They are in good shape. We are negotiating for their release. It is part of the larger problem dealing with the question of Bihac. We do have five Canadians in Bihac. There have been reports of some cessation of hostilities today in Bihac and we hope that will mean there will be some normalization of events.

At the moment there is little change from what we described yesterday.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear that only five and not 20 Canadian soldiers were taken hostage in Bihac, but the minister will agree that five is still five too many.

Considering the fact that Canadian peacekeepers are still being kept hostage in Bosnia, could the minister indicate what position Canada has taken vis-à-vis its partners regarding the possibility of continuing air strikes?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, our ambassador in Brussels at NATO was engaged in discussions yesterday about the future use of air power.

Nothing has changed from the course of events that was decided upon earlier this year, that if a UN safe haven is attacked, if UNPROFOR forces are attacked, the UN would have the right to ask NATO to engage in air strikes.

I think it is premature at this point to expect any further attacks in the next few days. This matter is under discussion not only between NATO and the UN but also between the warring parties in the former Yugoslavia.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, further to the questioning of the Minister of National Defence on the Bosnia situation, yesterday he acknowledged that Canadian troops in Bosnia are in a very dangerous situation and he indicated that very little has changed.

The most recent reports indicate that the situation may have even deteriorated further. Last night retired Major General Lewis MacKenzie was quoted as saying: "The United States was willing to fight to the last Canadian".

Given the growing danger, will the minister tell Canadians if he even has one contingency plan and if he does what that plan might be?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, an essential part of military planning is that you do not reveal what your plans are to anyone other than the people you command.

It is a tragic situation but the question amuses me. The reputation and the experience of the Canadian Armed Forces not only in the former Yugoslavia but elsewhere should lead the hon. member to have confidence that the chief of defence staff and all those in the Canadian command, including the rest of the UNPROFOR forces, know what the problems are and will know how to deal with any situation that may arise.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would not bring this matter to the attention of the minister except that we are hearing reports actually back from the field saying that they are concerned that there is no plan and morale is becoming lower.

The Minister of National Defence insists on referring to the detention of Canadian soldiers but let us speak frankly as the UN commander has done and admit that our troops are now being held as hostages and as bargaining chips.

As we noted yesterday, the minister promised to withdraw Canadians if the situation on the ground changed or if their safety were called into question. How far must the situation deteriorate before the government acts to remove troops from this dangerous situation?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I can categorically say there is no morale problem with the Canadian forces in Bosnia and Croatia. If anything is going to undermine morale it is the comments of parliamentarians like the hon. member opposite and his colleague yesterday who made unfortunate references to possible situations involving fatalities of our soldiers.

We are all Canadians. It does not matter what party we represent. These people are our people representing the country, doing work for the UN Let us not compromise their safety any more than we have to.