House of Commons Hansard #133 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was international.

Topics

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order. Resuming debate with the hon. member for Athabasca.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Dave Chatters Reform Athabasca, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise on this issue because I have had the same experience as has been related by the other two members of my caucus. I take real exception to the cavalier attitude that has been expressed across the floor on the whole issue because even if only one member had this experience it is sufficient to warrant close examination and some real change.

Before I was elected I visited the offices of the former member. They were very well appointed offices with good furniture. There were computers in both offices and were very well equipped. After I was elected and the inventory was transferred to my office I was surprised to find that some very meagre furnishings were transferred. My filing cabinets, two of which I received, were locked and appeared to have been rolled down the stairs. When I had a locksmith open them because the keys were not there, the hanging filing rails were not there. It took some time and expense. The computer that was inventoried and I was to receive was not there. Some old obsolete equipment, some home-built computers with no serial numbers and such, replaced the ones I was to receive.

The member across the way says that an inventory is regularly sent out to every member. We are to examine our office equipment and verify with our signatures that the material is there. An inventory dated September 13, 1993 was received, reviewed and I presume signed by the former member. However immediately after the election the same former member came into materiel management and stroked off any number of pieces that he had a number of excuses for not being there. That is only one month and a little after he originally verified the contents.

Even if the rules are there they are certainly not being enforced. In my case it was very obvious. I really could not understand why. Immediately after my election when the material was transferred and all this equipment was missing, I approached materiel management people and talked to them. I sensed a real hesitancy to do anything about it.

I could not get anybody to get excited. They told me: "It is going to take months to straighten this out. You better go out and refurnish your office because you are not going to get this back in time". I had all kinds of excuses.

The member says that if there is fraud, the rules are there. It will be punished. It will be followed up. How can fraud be established if nobody will do an investigation of the whole issue in the first place?

I pursued with great vigour the material that was missing and did eventually receive some of it back from the former member's home in undamaged crates. However when I uncrated them a laser printer, for example, was badly damaged. It cost the taxpayers of Canada some $800 to repair and to put back into working order.

I could go on and on. It made me very angry and overall it ended up costing me personally some $500 in legal costs to defend myself against the former member's legal action for slander. I approached again the House of Commons to provide some assistance and some support in that area and was turned down.

Clearly if the rules are there they are not being enforced. I could not understand it. The longer I am here, the more and more I begin to understand it. It is an attitude around this place.

When I recently entered my building on Wellington Street and inquired of the security person standing there if I might do something-it was something to do with some guests who were arriving-he said: "You can do anything, sir. You are God around here". That is the problem around here. There is not any accountability. That is the attitude that caused the materiel management people to hesitate to investigate the charges I was making.

It is an attitude that has members of the House pass rules and regulations around here that are never enforced. Members can walk through any building on the Hill and, in spite of the fact a rule was passed by this organization that smoking is not allowed in the buildings on the Hill, there is blue smoke wafting out of the offices because we are God around here. I find that unacceptable.

What I did find encouraging, however, from this whole mess and when I was finished was that the person in charge of members' services, Mrs. Edna MacKenzie, when we discussed the whole situation approached me and asked if I might help her to develop some kind of a system-

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order. I am having some difficulty hearing the member who has the floor. I wonder if I might ask for the co-operation of members on both sides.

Sometimes the mood of the House can change very quickly. It can be very good humoured one minute, even one second, and be something quite different shortly thereafter.

I just caution us on making sure that we conclude the proceedings today in good humour but in as vigorous a debate as any member may wish. Ultimately we should maintain and respect the decorum of this place and each and every member.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Reform

Dave Chatters Reform Athabasca, AB

Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, in the process of trying to solve the mystery of the missing office equipment, I had a discussion with the newly appointed head of member services, Mrs. Edna MacKenzie, who asked if I would help and get involved to try and develop changes to the system that might prevent this very thing from happening again. I was pleased to hear that.

This may not be perfect but it is certainly an attempt to address some of those concerns. I see a willingness on this side of the House and I heard a willingness on the part of the staff that runs this organization. I think the only thing missing is a serious willingness on the part of the government to take the initiative and do something to stop that. I think it is an extremely serious matter. I do not care if it was something as little as the lack of a transfer of a flag and pole which every MPs office in Canada has standing in it, which I did not receive.

All the consumable items that I did not get when added together are a considerable amount of money. I think it is very serious and I would hope the government will also take it seriously and that we might do something to remedy this situation so it will not happen again.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Reform

John Duncan Reform North Island—Powell River, BC

Mr. Speaker, in terms of the debate we have heard, I think we are in general agreement on this motion with the exception of some of the debate from across the floor.

I think you will find unanimous consent for the following motion:

That the question of furnishings, supplies and equipment in the constituency office and in the House of Commons office of every member of Parliament be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for consideration.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member has spoken to me about this and we are certainly happy to have the standing committee undertake a review of this matter.

I hope that hon. members who indicated they had a problem will come to the committee and tell the committee about their problems because the committee will be interested to hear them. If there is something that can be done to rectify the problem, I am sure the committee will make the appropriate recommendations.

Motion agreed to

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

The time provided for consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired. Pursuant to Standing Order 96(1) the order is dropped from the Order Paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:40 p.m.

NDP

John Solomon NDP Regina—Lumsden, SK

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General reports that corporations owe $2.9 billion in unpaid taxes to Revenue Canada for 1993.

He also states: "Clearly, reducing deficits through more effective tax collection is preferable to raising taxes. Taxes receivable are an important national asset and leaving them uncollected has a serious impact on the deficit".

The burden on the deficit of unpaid taxes and tax expenditures is overly represented by corporations and large businesses. I raise concern to the fact that $2.9 billion in unpaid tax is owing to this government. The federal government has a responsibility to ensure that money is paid back to the treasury it is due. Corporations owe 32 per cent of the unpaid taxes. Another 12 per cent of unpaid taxes are from employers, that is business, who have not paid their payroll taxes. According to the Auditor General, the vast majority of accounts in arrears are less than one year old.

The federal government must work toward recovering these delinquent accounts. This is only the first step. The government has a responsibility to close the present tax breaks and the tax

loopholes provided to corporations and higher income Canadians. Why is it that a Canadian with an income of $286,000 can reduce their tax rate to less than 10 per cent, while middle and lower income Canadians experience tax rates of close to one-third of their income? The tax system gives corporations and the wealthy big tax breaks and some are still not paying what they owe. This must be corrected.

The government must stand up to tax cheats and close tax loopholes. It must also undertake tax reform during their budget deliberations, not just cut social programs.

Our economy has just been through some difficult times but not all corporations were in financial trouble. Many have turned healthy profits but do not pay their fair share of taxes.

In his reply the Minister of National Revenue stated that companies and individuals are "having a tough time after the recession". This sympathy was not extended to unemployed Canadians who saw their unemployment insurance benefits slashed. Unemployed Canadians were also victims of the recession, yet they did not seem to have the government's sympathy.

The government needs to place a tax on profits so that profitable corporations pay their fair share of taxes at a time when they are able to pay. The Auditor General identifies $37 billion in tax expenditures, of which only $15 billion is RRSP related. The majority of Canadians with RRSPs are average Canadians who are preparing for their retirements and are, in effect, deferring income that will be taxable in the future. The rest of the tax expenditures are corporate write-offs.

Why is the government not looking at ways to increase its revenue by eliminating some of the corporate tax expenditures and putting a cap on RRSP contributions from higher incomes?

The tax system is in desperate need of reform. Corporations are not paying their fair share of taxes. The Liberal government has made it clear that cutting the deficit is a priority, yet it has not taken a serious look at increasing revenue from profitable corporations.

The government has instead chosen to cut back on social programs. It is raising university students' tuitions, cutting money to seniors and cutting UI payments before it even considers making profitable corporations and the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes.

The government also continues to give away money to profitable corporations. As a former businessman I respect the company wanting to make a profit, but why are corporations such as Royal Oak Mines, Rolls-Royce Canada and Bombardier also receiving millions of dollars in grants? The Chamber of Commerce receives $2.1 million.

I am asking the government to get serious with the deficit by collecting the money owed by corporations and to reform the tax system to make it fair.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

Essex—Windsor Ontario

Liberal

Susan Whelan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Revenue

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Regina-Lumsden has asked when Revenue Canada is going to start paying more attention to collecting the approximately $3 billion of unpaid corporate tax. He will be happy to hear that we are paying attention and taxes owing are being collected.

I would like to clarify the amount owing by corporations. The hon. member indicated that approximately $3 billion is owed by corporations. In fact, the amount as reported by the Auditor General was $2.1 billion. Another $.8 billion was owed by employers who are not always corporations.

The hon. member should know that at any given time some proportion of taxes assessed by Revenue Canada is outstanding. These taxes are not lost revenue. They represent taxes that have been assessed but not yet collected. In many cases they are owed by honest taxpayers who intend to pay and by businesses who are trying to recover from the recession. They do not represent an untapped source of funds for the government to apply against the deficit.

These are accounts receivable which are already part of the government's fiscal plan. These moneys will be collected with interest, except where there are legitimate reasons to adjust the assessment. Less than 1 per cent of total gross revenues will be uncollectable as a result of insolvencies and bankruptcies.

I would like to add that corporations are not given special privileges. In fact, unlike most taxpayers, large corporations are subject to an accelerated collection procedure. The Income Tax Act prohibits the immediate use of enforced collection measures for most categories of debt for 90 days from the notice of assessment date, with the exception of large corporations who must immediately pay one-half of the amount assessed.

Revenue Canada's enforcement programs are based on a comprehensive strategy to encourage voluntary compliance to maximize the efficient and effective use of our enforcement resources.

All members of the House, including my hon. friend from Regina-Lumsden, will recognize that the results of this strategy are impressive: 95 per cent of taxes owing are paid voluntarily and Revenue Canada's mandate is to preserve the tax base. The department has always been and continues to be absolutely committed to the highest level of compliance possible.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Len Taylor NDP The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK

Mr. Speaker, on Thursday of last week I rose to ask the Deputy Prime Minister about two recent appointments to the Senate and

to offer a suggestion about what she, the Prime Minister and the Liberal government might do about the Senate in the future.

My remarks and the focus of my question were prompted by the government appointments earlier in the week of long-time Liberals, Ottawa's Jean-Robert Gauthier and New Brunswick's John Bryden. While I indicated that both may very well be very worthy appointments, I wanted to suggest that there is much more to this issue than the worthiness of the candidates.

Canadians are looking for a change in the Senate itself. Canadians are looking for the government to take the necessary steps to either abolish the Senate or elect its members so that Parliament's second Chamber is accountable to the people of the country and not just to the Prime Minister who made the individual appointments.

As long as the Prime Minister continues to appoint senators, the same old charge of patronage can be made. For Canadians the government of the day is seen to be just like all those who have gone before it. Once again the Prime Minister has seen fit to ignore the calls for Senate reform and instead has done as Mulroney did before him. He appointed his friends and supporters to the upper house.

The Prime Minister is missing a great opportunity to correct years of abuse. Something different must be done as quickly as possible and only the Prime Minister is in a position to act today.

About two years ago I attended a constitutional conference in Calgary at which ordinary individuals as well as experts from across western Canada participated in a discussion about the Senate and the future of democracy. I listened to a lot of debate about an elected Senate and even about proportional representation as the basis for the election, not only of the Senate but of the House of Commons as well.

I say this to indicate that I am already aware that there is a great wealth of knowledge around the country that can be called on by any Prime Minister who really wants to do something to address Canadians' mounting distrust of governments, patronage and the Senate.

The existing appointed and unaccountable Senate must be abolished. I can add that I also support replacing it with an elected Senate which is given more specific responsibilities and is accountable primarily to the regions. I realize that any reform of the Senate as we know it would require a constitutional change, accepted not only by this House and the provinces, but also by members of the Senate. We saw in the Charlottetown accord how difficult this is going to be. Therefore, there must be more than one way to abolish the Senate. I call on the Liberals across the way to take a bold, new initiative.

In addition, Canadians are concerned about the country's mounting deficit and the federal government's desire to cut the deficit by cutting spending. It seems unfortunate the Liberals are telling Canadians that our nation can no longer afford social programs, but we can afford to continue to fill the Senate with political hacks.

Many jobs will be lost in the public service this year because of cutbacks. Many ordinary Canadians will lose their jobs and others will not find jobs because existing ones in the public service will not be filled when they become vacant. The Liberals should do to the Senate what it is doing to the public service. When a vacancy occurs in the Senate, the Prime Minister should resist the political temptation to fill it and instead leave the position vacant. Over time, by attrition, the Senate will slowly abolish itself. It is certainly a better idea than continuing to appoint the party faithful who have no mandate or commitment to reforming the system.

I ask the Liberal government to be bold and reform the Senate through attrition of its members.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

Kingston and the Islands Ontario

Liberal

Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to hear the member change his tune on the Senate. I can recall in the last Parliament when the GST was being debated his party moved a motion urging the Senate to defeat the GST bill. He voted for that motion. Unless he was absent that day, I am sure he did. His whole party supported it. It supported the Senate. It abandoned its longstanding policy of abolition of the Senate. Now I hear two of the members from that party squawking and complaining that really is not their policy. I wish the New Democratic Party would make up its mind.

I would like to deal on a more serious note with the issues raised by the hon. member. What he is asking the Prime Minister to do is frankly silly. He is asking the Prime Minister to ignore one of the constituent parts of Parliament. He knows that Parliament is composed of three elements: the Crown, the House and the Senate. He wants the Prime Minister to ignore the Senate and not fill it so the Senate is left as a sort of floating group of people that are there that were there before. Gradually it will diminish and become less effective simply because its members are not appointed any more and there are a whole bunch of vacancies.

Those left are still able to carry out all the functions of the Senate. One of the functions the Senate has is the right to review bills that are passed by this House. Indeed its concurrence is required on all bills passed by the House. The hon. member seems to have conveniently forgotten that. He is asking the Prime Minister to let a Tory rump in the Senate tell the House what it can do with its bills. I do not think any responsible Prime Minister could agree with such a thing.

The Conservative Party in the House of Commons, as he knows, was almost wiped out in the last election. It has but two members who are rarely here because they have other responsibilities apparently to try to rebuild the party. We are left trying

to run the Government of Canada dealing with a Conservative majority in the Senate.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

NDP

John Solomon NDP Regina—Lumsden, SK

Let us abolish it.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

The hon. member says abolish it. He knows perfectly well that requires the unanimous consent of the provinces. He also knows perfectly well that some of the provinces, particularly in his part of Canada, are opposed to abolition of the Senate.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

NDP

John Solomon NDP Regina—Lumsden, SK

Not Saskatchewan.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I am glad to hear that. I am told that is not the case in Alberta nor is it the case in British Columbia. If one province blocks it that is the end of the initiative.

The Prime Minister made the very wise promise when he was running in the election campaign in 1993 that he would not tinker with the Constitution of Canada. Canadians were sick and tired of constitutional tinkering. It cost us. It has almost broken our country up because of the tinkering of the former Prime Minister and his bumbling in that field. This Prime Minister has promised that he will deliver to Canadians what they want and that is anything but constitutional reform.

We will not get into Senate reform because it requires a constitutional change. To suggest that we should make the Senate a weak link in the parliamentary chain by refusing to fill the vacancies is silly nonsense.

The candidates that were put in the Senate this week are excellent candidates. They have excellent qualifications. The hon. member does a disservice when he refers to them as political hacks.

The former member for Ottawa-Vanier served a distinguished career as a member of a school board. He has been a chiropractor for many years, having received his doctorate in the chiropractic in 1953. He worked as a chiropractor for many years before he was elected to Parliament and did some during the time he was here. He has been an excellent MP and a leader in his community. Surely someone with those qualifications is a worthy appointee to the Senate of Canada.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Pursuant to Standing Order 38(5), the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been moved. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24.

(The House adjourned at 6.57 p.m.)