House of Commons Hansard #133 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was international.

Topics

World Trade Organization Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Pursuant to Standing Order 45(5)(a), I have been requested by the chief deputy whip to defer the division until a later time. Accordingly, pursuant to Standing Order 45(5)(a), the division on the question now before the House stands deferred until tomorrow at 5.30 p.m. at which time the bells to call in the members will be sounded for not more than 15 minutes.

World Trade Organization Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West, ON

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. There is another vote already scheduled tomorrow. I think you would also find the House is disposed by unanimous consent to agree to have that vote at the end of the normal time allotted for government business.

World Trade Organization Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is it agreed?

World Trade Organization Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

World Trade Organization Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

It being 5.45 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

5:40 p.m.

Reform

John Duncan Reform North Island—Powell River, BC

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House,

1) during an election period but before the date of the election, every Member of Parliament should be required to certify the location and presence of their furnishings, supplies and equipment: a ) in the constituency office, which list should be attested to by the Deputy Returning Officer, and b ) in the House of Commons office, which list should be attested to by House of Commons staff;

2) after an election, the smooth storage and/or transfer of furnishings, supplies and equipment to the new Member of Parliament should be arranged: a ) in the constituency office, by the Deputy Returning Officer and b ) in the House of Commons office, by House of Commons staff;

3) if an outgoing Member of Parliament fails to deliver all furnishings, supplies and equipment, the shortfall value should be deducted from the Member's pay and/or pension, or compensation should be sought and, in extreme cases, criminal charges should be initiated.

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to debate my private member's motion M-290 which seeks to address the current inadequacies and shortcomings surrounding the turnover of assets and inventory by defeated MPs to their successors.

Currently volume 2 of the member's manual of allowances and services, chapter G-3, is the only reference to the turnover of constituency assets of the House of Commons. The closest and most direct statement referencing the turnover is as follows:

A member who stands for re-election but is not re-elected is required to vacate the constituency office within 30 days of the date of the election. Thus the essential costs of maintaining the office for the 30-day winding up period, (e.g. office supplies, telephone rental, telephone answering service, utility bills, furniture and equipment rental) may be charged against the members' office budget.

This is the only reference to a time line, a 30-day winding up period, and it is not specific as to transfer of assets.

Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to read into the record the text of my motion. However, you have just done that.

I welcome debate, input and suggestions during this allotted hour and following on how to improve the transition for incoming MPs, particularly as this motion directs office inventory and assets.

The public has high expectations of its new MPs after an election. The goodwill component which is now the driving philosophy behind the orderly and timely turnover of assets can and has led to political abuse and interruption of the political and constituency response process.

I know this first hand. I know I am not alone, particularly after the last election which saw over 200 new MPs elected, 200 eager MPs who wanted to get down to business at the constituency level and in Ottawa but were precluded by outright refusal by some losing candidates who procrastinated in turning over government assets or in extreme cases could not be contacted at all or refused to return calls. Such was my case. Ultimately my entire office inventory was not in place until January. If it had been one day later it would have been February, more than three months after election day.

The House of Commons materiel management group could not account for the inventory and was unable to locate the inventory because of its inability to locate the outgoing MP, because it was unaware of two of the four constituency office locations which he utilized, and because the MP had placed assets in storage facilities without notifying materiel management-totally stealthy and irresponsible behaviour on the part of an outgoing MP who refused to show goodwill, inconveniencing not only me but the constituents of North Island-Powell River.

Allow me to elaborate on the saga of my misfortune by quoting from my constituency assistant, my second employee at the constituency: "On my first day of work, December 1, 1993, I walked into an office that was sparsely appointed with borrowed furniture. Not one piece of equipment belonged to the Government of Canada. I brought my own computer from home so that we could reply to correspondence".

My staff frustration grew daily. My staff paid a visit to the office of my predecessor. It was locked and no staff was around. A call to Ottawa to materiel management proved fruitless. It also had no idea where the assets were and was spending considerable effort tracking down the MP without success.

Essentially, the problem could be summed up by the House of Commons materiel management official who stated that there were two MP phone numbers, each with an answering machine referring the caller to the other telephone and no returned phone calls. At this point I purchased a photocopier. I knew that an effective MP had to possess some investigatory skills. This was ridiculous.

Materiel management representatives indicated they were getting nowhere with the former MP and their hands were tied because they lacked power by statute or by decree to do anything. They floated the scenario at this time of trying to access the MP and influence his behaviour through the party constituency association or his party leader.

On December 8, 1993 my constituency office received a call from the House of Commons to say that the furniture and office possessions were located. Delivery was promised to my main office. On December 13 some basic furniture arrived. On December 17 more furniture arrived, but no sign of computers or photocopiers as listed on the inventory list. My office continued to supply the personally owned computer and borrowed a fax machine.

At that point considerable correspondence and filing had accumulated, not a good beginning on response turn around time.

On December 20 the House of Commons called to say it had no idea where the computers were. I decided at that time to purchase two computers from my member's office budget. The former member had four constituency offices, so possessions belonging to the government were scattered. We located some more inventory in storage with over a month owing on their storage because the former MP had paid for two weeks storage and indicated the House of Commons would pick up the remainder of the tab without further instruction and without informing the House. Again, not all the computers were present at this storage site.

Also I quickly found that the fax machine we located was in poor repair, forcing me to purchase a new one. I received further inventory on December 24, 1993. On January 5, 1994, I received delivery of a new fax machine. On the same day I took possession of two new computers, more than two months after the election.

On January 7, I found the inventory from the previous member's Sechelt office, far from complete after reconciling the inventory list. Computers again were missing. Included was a 386 and a lap top. With rent still owing to the storage facility of the Sechelt inventory, I personally paid the amount to solve the operator's frustration with the position he had been placed in.

On January 22, I received information that more inventory had been located in a Campbell River storage facility. The missing computers with the exception of the lap top were in the room. They were of the older 286 variety. On January 31, I did a formal reconciliation, the 286 lap top never did show. In May I was informed that it had been returned to Ottawa damaged and unusable and materiel management informed me that the former MP had been requested to pay and had paid for the lap top.

The sleuthing around by me, my staff and House of Commons staff was bad enough in order to locate government inventory. Because Parliament had not been in session for about seven months previous to the election, there was a large pent up demand for service and reasonable expectations by deserving constituents for attention to their needs.

The fact that I was without assets was a major distraction for me in fulfilling my duties as an MP. The previous member had been in office for 14 years. As a green MP and with the residual effects of a contested campaign still fresh in my memory, I did not want to go public with the inexcusable behaviour of the previous MP because I had taken the high road consistently when others had not and I did not want to appear somehow affected by my win.

The events I have described should not be allowed to reoccur. These assets had been bought and paid for by the taxpayers of Canada and we need better ground rules than currently exist. Materiel management did all it could do at long distance within it mandate. Even with that my staff was instrumental in its sleuthing and finding where some of the inventory was stored. Members can appreciate that my staff could not view the items once located in storage without authorization from the House of Commons. Even this was awkward and so was not done, adding further to our delay in reconciling our inventory.

We would all be much better off with clear lines of authority and responsibility to effect the transfer of assets. In my view the withholding of the entire office inventory was punitive and retributive and I should have had some recourse beyond good will to pursue the matter. I was the last member of Parliament in Canada to receive my assets. I know I was not alone in my grief and frustration and that is why I feel so strongly about my motion.

Similar activities as perpetrated by my predecessor would be tantamount to theft in the private sector. We must untie the hands of the materiel management people of the House of Commons and allow new MPs to do their job effectively. Good will is not enough. Accountability must be introduced. We must put teeth into the rules and procedures for the turnover of assets and initiate ramifications for those who do not prescribe to the rules.

My motion calls for the involvement by the deputy returning officers at the constituency level. They would be charged with the responsibility of reconciling inventory of the former member and co-ordinating the transfer.

In Ottawa the materiel management staff shall ensure storage and/or transfer in an orderly fashion. If the outgoing MP should fail to deliver, the shortfall value would be deducted from that former MP's pay or pension or compensation sought and, in extreme cases, criminal charges should be initiated.

During my trial surrounding this debacle and the senseless behaviour exhibited by the former MP, various strategies emerged including, as I previously mentioned, contacting the former MP's riding association and party leader. The other option was to pursue the issue through the Speaker which was complicated because this was also a time of transition for that office.

In the final analysis, materiel management of the House of Commons has no power to initiate the transfer of assets and in the final analysis again must rely on the good will of the former MP who in this case had none.

My situation may be a dramatic example, but as my colleagues who will speak later will attest, I am not alone. If we do not do something about it now it will get worse. I will tell members why. Currently we are dealing with stable and existing ridings. We all know we are considering the adoption of a bill which would see ridings actually change their boundaries every five to ten years. Therefore, the frequency in which members inherit intact ridings is going to reduce and the frequency when they inherit changed ridings is going to exacerbate the problem. The new MP will not know which former MP or constituency office he or she will be inheriting because the boundaries will have been shifted.

Clearly it is incumbent upon the House to take a look at the current turnover of assets procedure. We cannot have a situation where the legislators of Canada are found incompetent due to a lack of legislative authority governing their own activities in areas so common sense as transferring MP furniture, supplies and equipment. If the House allows this injustice and waste of taxpayers' dollars to continue it is not serving its function.

I would like to submit one further option to make my case. While I have not spoken to the chief electoral officer, it may be that this individual through some amendment or addition to the Elections Act can be empowered by statute to initiate and ensure the turnover of these government assets in an orderly and timely manner.

This is a serious issue and one I would implore the House to deal with even if I had not experienced this frustrating, time consuming delay. As it is now, the House is powerless, materiel management is powerless and sheer good will is not enough.

I thank the House for the opportunity to debate my motion.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

Kingston and the Islands Ontario

Liberal

Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to participate in this debate today because the hon. member's motion is a serious one.

I want to point out that while I think he has raised a subject that is one we ought to discuss, I am not sure the solution he has proposed to the subject, laying criminal charges and getting the returning officers and elections involved, is a particularly helpful set of suggestions.

I would like to deal first with those. Then I will try to say something constructive about what the hon. member has put forward because I know he has done it in all seriousness.

I also want to say that I do not think the experience he had is one that was shared by all members of this House. Most of us when we took over in the House after having been elected-mine of course was not in 1993; it was in 1988, but I took over from a sitting MP at that time-did not find the situation quite as bad as the hon. member has described.

The outgoing members in most cases were very civil in their treatment of the newly elected members in that they handed over the office supplies that were there. I think also the hon. member might have sought greater assistance. It might have been available in a way that perhaps he did not appreciate at the time. He was seeking that assistance having found that most of the equipment apparently had disappeared.

The difficulty that the hon. member's motion indicates in my view are twofold. First, he has suggested that the proper solution for this is to have, I think he says, the deputy returning officer look after this. I assume that he means the returning officer in the constituency and not one of the deputy returning officers in one of the polls.

If he means the returning officer in the constituency, he suggests this person go in and do an inventory as soon as the writ is issued. With all respect, the returning officer in the constituency has to get his own office set up within hours of the writ being issued. He has to hire all his staff to get the election machinery going. The time when that person is at his or her busiest moment is in the few days following the issue of a writ. To suggest that person ought to take time out of that schedule and drop around to the MP's office to have a look at the furniture is patently silly.

If the hon. member thinks about that, he will realize it is not the place of the returning officer in an election to go around and see the MP's office equipment and conduct his own inventory. There are other reasons it is not a good idea that I will elaborate on in a moment.

The second criticism I would make is that I am not sure the hon. member needs to have the deputy returning officer be the person that does it. There are dozens of deputy returning officers appointed in every constituency, one for every poll. In my constituency there are something like 240 polls. In other ridings there are more. Surely we do not have to wait until those people are appointed, which takes some weeks into the election period in the first place, then choose one that will be the person that runs about to the MP's office to inspect the equipment. I do not see that as necessary.

I want to deal with the current arrangements that affect members' office equipment and how they are covered in fact by provisions currently existing in the Member's Manual of Allowances and Services. I am sure the hon. member has read the manual on allowances and services. It is entirely possible that when he got to the pages on materiel management he fell asleep. I have had this experience reading this manual. It is tough going. I do not suggest for a minute that the hon. member is negligent in his duties, but this manual is heavy duty stuff.

In it there are all kinds of things that deal with members' equipment, budgets and so on. If the hon. member turns to section 7(1) of the bylaws-I think the bylaws are at the back or the front of the manual; there is a separate book that has them but they are also in the manual-it says:

Where an MP contravenes the bylaws of the House and the situation is not resolved to the satisfaction of the Board-

This means the Board of Internal Economy.

-the Board may order any amount of money required to rectify the situation to be withheld from any budget, allowance or other payment that may be made available to the Member-and

c) -if the Board considers it necessary-the Board may order that any budget, allowance or other payment that may be made available to the Member be frozen for such time and on such other conditions as the Board considers necessary.

In addition to that the board has powers of enforcement using civil remedies. It can sue members of the House who have breached the provisions of the bylaws of the board. I want to make it clear that inventory of members' assets is not something that is done just before election time.

The hon. member will discover there is an annual inventory carried out of the assets that are in his constituency office. My experience has been that the list is sent to my staff and I am asked to verify and sign a document that those items are in my constituency office. If the hon. member has a real problem with the conditions of the assets, that is if they were being destroyed and damaged by an outgoing member, which I heard by rumour may have happened in one instance but I do not know, the member can be asked when the inventory is done to comment in the inventory on the state of the assets over which he has control.

I frankly cannot understand why it would be a particular problem in almost every case for members to review this list of assets on an annual basis and pass their comments to the House officers in charge of this, materiel management, and have those reports made available. As the hon. member knows, they are made available on the election of a new member. This list is given to the new member and the new member is then told he can go to the constituency office and reasonably expect that the items on the list from materiel management will be available to him or her, as the case may be. I am of course referring to the hon. member who opened the debate with his motion in this particular case.

I am not sure that we can do a great deal to prevent former members from making off with assets. It happens in various places around this country. As I have said, I think virtually all members have been quite honestly dealt with in this regard and they have received the things they ought reasonably to have received from the former member.

I know the hon. member for North Island-Powell River has had his problems. I see from the scowls on the faces of hon. members opposite that some of them may have had a shared experience. But that has not been the experience of the vast majority of members in this House.

I think to go on a witch hunt or come in with some draconian rules that are extremely cumbersome, awkward and expensive to administer for the sake of saving a few thousand dollars here and there on missing equipment is hardly worth the trouble that I think the hon. member for North Island-Powell River is suggesting we ought to engage in by this motion.

I sympathize with the plight he described. I recognize that there can be cases of dishonesty and we all deplore that. But the law affords sufficient remedies. Where there has been dishonesty charges can be laid. We do not need a motion in the House to lay charges. That can be done where fraud has been established.

On the basis of the annual review of assets that is conducted by materiel management and officers of this House and are signed for by members of this House when the review is complete, and is done on a regular basis, there is no reason in my view why that list cannot be accurate and up to date when the new member takes over.

If that is the case, it seems to me it is unnecessary for us to get into a lengthy procedural arrangement whereby we have all kinds of people coming into MPs offices and inspecting this equipment day after day. It is a nuisance, it is expensive and unnecessary. I know the hon. member, being a member of the Reform Party, like us is much opposed to government waste.

I suggest that some of the things he has put in his motion would lead to increased government waste.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Gaston Leroux Bloc Richmond—Wolfe, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on this motion and to give the viewpoint of the Official Opposition on the motion of the member for North Island-Powell River.

I want to say right away that we do support this motion. We support it because it involves taxpayers' money and also the proper management of the equipment made available to elected members.

The motion presented by the member for North Island-Powell River refers to sound management, to transfer when an election is held and recovery if any furniture, supplies and equipment for which the member is responsible while in office and which belong to the House disappear. Remember that if it belongs to the House, it belongs to all taxpayers.

This motion reminds us of how difficult it is to draw up a permanent list of property for an institution such as the House of Commons where the political staff changes very regularly, every four or five years.

Although an inventory for all office equipment belonging to the House has existed since 1977, according to information obtained from Materiel Management, more than 90 of the 205 new members elected last fall reported significant discrepancies between the inventory report of what they should have received and what they actually received. It is disturbing that 90 of the 205 newcomers do not have the equipment exactly as it is listed on the inventory. We are entitled to ask questions and the member for North Island-Powell River, who tabled the motion, is right to raise the issue.

As early as April, several Canadian newspapers reported that equipment like video systems, televisions, faxes and furniture had disappeared from the House since the last election in October 1993. For example, La Presse for April 13 reported that Commons staff were trying to find television sets, VCRs, computers, cellular telephones, faxes and furniture belonging to the government, on the basis of information obtained directly from Materiel Management. We know that this includes equipment which is not easy to put in one's coat pocket.

Nevertheless, we must not conclude too hastily that theft or fraud is involved, as some people might be inclined to do. According to our information, it is very difficult to prove that former members really intended to steal. As proof, almost all the missing items were recovered, the member will be glad to know, by the staff of Materiel Management and the non-recovered items were charged to the members who were responsible for them.

There are many difficulties in drawing up a reliable inventory of House property and they have nothing to do with the honesty of members. For one, Materiel Management is not always informed promptly of changes to members' inventory during their term and also it is often difficult to transfer property from the riding office of a defeated member to the new member's office, given the rivalry between them.

Also, some items from the riding office, including laptop computers, cellular telephones and video systems, are left in the defeated member's Ottawa office, no doubt in the belief that the newly elected member will occupy the same premises on the Hill, which is not necessarily the case.

The honour system of assigning responsibility for inventory to members has its advantages but also disadvantages, let us admit. The Bloc Quebecois is fully aware of the importance of protecting all property, both in members' riding offices and in their Ottawa offices, since it belongs to the House of Commons and is paid for with taxpayers' money.

With this in mind, we can only support Private Member's Motion 290, which suggests strengthening-do you agree?-the measures for auditing equipment inventories. I do not hear the member say that he agrees. Is something wrong? I was saying that the member's motion suggests strengthening the measures for auditing equipment inventories, furniture and so on, and the responsibilities of every member for this property-and it is important because we manage the taxpayers' money-in order to protect public property. We agree.

Nevertheless, several of the measures suggested in the motion already exist, we must admit. For several years, a physical audit of all the premises occupied by members of Parliament in Ottawa has been done annually.

And an electronic inventory, which uses bar codes, makes it easier to control and protect this property. Until quite recently, always according to Materiel Management, there was a major problem, which has now been identified. It was the issue of furnishings in riding offices.

We have to realize exactly where the problem is, and it seems it is particularly serious in riding offices. In fact, because of a lack of staff, Materiel Management was unable to check its inventories of furnishings in riding offices. I support the hon. member's motion, and I can inform government members that the problem has been identified. The problem was in the ridings, and there was not enough staff to keep track.

Now that there is more staff, there is a more effective relationship based on trust and co-operation between Materiel Management and the riding offices. This is a definite improvement, and we appreciate the efforts of those concerned.

A materiel policy is about to be put in place. It was in fact discussed on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The policy is almost ready to be implemented, and we are talking about the beginning of the next session. We hope it will be put in place by the Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, which discussed and approved the implementation of this policy.

This policy on furnishings basically contains the main elements of the hon. member's motion, Motion 290, which asks us to be efficient, effective and responsible managers, because the furnishings and equipment we have are, in the final instance, provided by the taxpayers.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to talk to a motion like this since I was one of those people personally involved in some of the bad dealings that happened after the election.

Of course, the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands says these are only isolated cases so why bother. That is not what this is about. This whole issue is about accountability.

I know that some members on the other side may have a problem with that issue. We do not have a problem talking about this in the House of Commons. Accountability is something everybody in this land has to live with, particularly members of the House of Commons.

I wonder if the government members are going to listen to this. After all they do have a majority government. We found out today that the Bloc will support our member's motion, and I am sure the vast majority of colleagues, all of the Reform colleagues, will support it as well.

In talking about accountability and assets belonging to the taxpayer the question is: When it comes to a vote next week on Wednesday or Thursday, how will the government members vote on this issue? Will they find a very small technicality? Will they find as the member for Kingston and the Islands says, that perhaps this is not really as bad as we think? Will they say that since it is not that bad they will vote it down? Or, will they say that perhaps there is an issue of accountability and perhaps therefore they should vote for it? That remains to be seen.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

It is not votable.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

That is right. There, they half shot my whole argument down. It is not votable, but will they support it?

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

An hon. member

We will support it, but it is not votable.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

There you go.

The question is: Who owns government property? The fact is that the taxpayers own it. Regardless of which incumbent comes into the job, the facts are the equipment is only on loan. Although we purchase it doing our time or we may take some from a member who preceded us, it always belongs to the taxpayer. It is much like leasing property; it has to be given back in some shape or form.

In my case after I was elected I went with my predecessor to look at the inventory in the cold storage. I did not know whether it was the right or wrong inventory but I went through the facility. I said we would ship it out to my new office. It came a couple of weeks later. There was no problem at all. I opened the door to my new office. The fellows on the delivery truck came and I actually sent some of the equipment back. I said: "This stuff is in terrible shape. Take it back and I am going to have to deal with it some other way, but bring in the television and the VCR. They look a little old but bring them in anyway. Bring in the old cellular phone and we will make use of that".

A while later I thought we should check off the inventory. As the member for Kingston and the Islands has said, an inventory sheet is given to us. I checked the VCR off, no problem at all. What bothered me was that the inventory list indicated that these were recent purchases and they were high dollar items. The amounts were in the several thousands of dollars, even for the television and the VCR but I would not have given very much for what I received. The value of those items I received might have been $200 or $300 in total.

I thought that perhaps there was something wrong. Digging into it we did find that yes, all this new equipment was bought but it was not sitting in my office; it was somewhere else.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Shame.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

The Liberal member is saying "shame". Yes it is a shame. It is a shame they do not understand what accountability is and what the issue is.

What happened was that the member had purchased the new equipment and kept it at his home and replaced that equipment with old stuff.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough West, ON

Shame.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

It took me quite a while to fight this. We finally did get it all back.

The fact is there should be something in place to assure there is accountability.

I understand the concern of these Liberals across here. It is all too often that we hear: "Shame, shame, shame". It is all too often that we hear: "Yes, we should do something about it". It is all too often that we know nothing is done. That is unfortunate.

This is not an isolated case. This has happened time and time again. All we are asking in the House of Commons is that it stop, that something gets in place and we take care of it. That is not too difficult a thing to ask.

It is not about trouble. This issue is not trouble. One member said just recently that the Reform Party was looking for a witchhunt in this motion, again my friend from Kingston and the Islands. I am not sure what the reference was to the witchhunt but again they have to get beyond witchhunts. They have to get beyond all of this lack of credibility in their statements and get on to what the issue is all about.

I tell you what I would not do with the member for Kingston and the Islands. I would never let the hon. member run my store. The way it is described here is: "Well, somebody is walking off with the equipment; somebody is walking off with my inventory but that it is okay. It is only a couple of people, so let us not bother with it". It could be your whole profits going down in the store.

We resolve this situation by taking a motion like this and saying that is the way to deal with it. Let us put it on the books. Let us dig in here and say even one instance like this is unacceptable because where there is one there are others. Indeed we have heard two of them today and there are more in line.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

If you can't deal with the little things how can you deal with the big things?

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, we are having fun in here today because those people over there do not understand what we are talking about.

The motion my colleague put before the House is a solid motion on accountability. It is really unfortunate that members over there do not understand about this stuff. We are trying hard.

Perhaps in the next three years we will teach them how to spell the word accountability, will teach them how to think the word accountability and will even teach them how to act the word accountability because they really do not know what it is about today.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

John O'Reilly Liberal Victoria—Haliburton, ON

Mr. Speaker, although I am not scheduled, I keep hearing the word accountability from the member for Fraser Valley West. I wish it was question and answer period. Last summer I had the pleasure of attending the public accounts committee conference in Charlottetown. The total cost of my ticket was probably $700. I would like to ask the member for Fraser Valley West who flew from Vancouver with his wife-

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Who paid her way.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

John O'Reilly Liberal Victoria—Haliburton, ON

-to Charlottetown, then on to New Brunswick and then on to St. John's how much his ticket was. Where was his accountability? Talk about the pork barrel.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

It came out of his pocket.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

John O'Reilly Liberal Victoria—Haliburton, ON

I cannot believe this member could stand and talk about accountability.

Members Of Parliament Office InventoriesPrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like the record to show that there is a cheque, not in the mail but deposited with the government, for my wife's portion of anything that was personal on that public accounts conference.

By the way I take great exception to the accusation-