Debates of Dec. 1st, 1994

Gun Control

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it still seems wise that we would get support from all of them when all the provinces will be involved.

In one short statement yesterday the Minister of Justice eliminated the role of Parliament, of the Standing Committee on Justice and of interested parties on both sides of the issue. He said: "Let me make it very clear. The process of consultation leading to legislation is now over". This is unacceptable.

What gives the Minister of Justice the power to interfere with the parliamentary process which includes the Standing Committee on Justice? Is true democracy proving to be inconvenient for the justice minister?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I meant yesterday exactly what I said. The process of consultation leading to the proposals in the legislation the government will put forward is at an end. We have reached the government's policy on firearms.

Naturally the bill will be put before the House of Commons in February when we resume. It will then be referred to committee in the ordinary course. It will go through the regular parliamentary procedure in which we hope to have the involvement of all members of the House.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it seems evident across the country that these proposals are in fact full of holes and seriously flawed.

We have seen in previous legislation in the House that this minister has set a precedent for ramrodding, railroading and running roughshod over the democratic process.

The minister said that yesterday's proposals are final. Will the minister, upon tabling the legislation, be open to further consultation? Will he consider changes to these proposals that attack responsible law-abiding gun owners?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is obvious the support among members of the Canadian public for these proposals is very high. We are making proposals that have the support of the vast majority of Canadians.

In terms of the consultation process, I spent almost five months consulting with over 150 national and regional organizations of firearms owners and users. I dealt with them at close quarters on the details of the proposals. Our consultations leading to the formation of government policy are at an end. Naturally when I put the bill before the House it will be referred to committee, witnesses will be heard, and the usual parliamentary process will be followed.

Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-Jean

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Yesterday, the minister refused to respond favorably to the invitation from the Mayor of Saint-Jean, saying that he had not received an invitation from Quebec's Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Now, the Mayor of Saint-Jean publicly invited both governments to Saint-Jean to continue discussions on the future of the military college on the basis of his proposal. Quebec is ready to delegate representatives.

Can the minister tell us whether he, like the Quebec minister, intends to respond favorably to the invitation from the Mayor of Saint-Jean and delegate officials so that discussions can resume and thus show his good faith?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I already said in this House a few days ago, I met the Mayor of Saint-Jean to listen to his proposal and to discuss the future of the college in Saint-Jean.

We both clearly agreed that the college in Saint-Jean must continue and for this two essential conditions of the July 19 agreement had to be met: the college has to be demilitarized and a transition period is needed.

What has happened is that I sent Ms. Beaudoin a letter several weeks ago, asking her to do just that, and she has not yet sent me a reply. As soon as she gives me an answer, we are ready to meet her.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell us whether or not he is prepared to continue discussions on the basis of the proposal from the Mayor of Saint-Jean, which would provide a transition period and also keep 350 officer cadets at the college next September?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I already told the House exactly what we had agreed on. What we need now is a reply from Ms. Beaudoin that she is ready to accept the July 19 agreement as a basis of negotiation. Our position was and still is the same and the Bloc Quebecois is

preventing the development of the royal military college in Saint-Jean and hindering normal economic activity in the Saint-Jean region because it opposes implementing the agreement.

Gun Control

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday during the justice minister's press conference when asked whether the registration of rifles and shotguns would reduce the criminal use of these firearms, the minister could not say that it would.

Given that the objective of firearms control is to reduce the accidental, intentional and criminal use of firearms, can the minister today state that the registration of shotguns and rifles will meet these objectives and reduce the criminal use of these weapons in society?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the only reason this government is proposing a registration system for rifles and shotguns is our firm belief that it will have exactly that result.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in his proposals yesterday the minister failed to provide the statistical information to justify the registration of rifles and shotguns and to ban other firearms.

The Auditor General found the same lack of substantiating evidence for Bill C-17, which led him to conclude that C-17 was initiated for reasons of public policy.

I ask the minister, when will he provide statistical justification for introducing these measures, or is this being done for reasons of public policy as well?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, there is a reason why the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police wants universal registration of firearms. There is a reason why the Canada Safety Council has been urging the government to introduce universal registration of firearms, quite apart from common sense.

As we announced yesterday, there is a direct link between the registration of firearms, the reduction of crime, the reduction in the number of lost and stolen firearms in the hands of criminals and public safety and safety in the home.

Registered Retirement Savings Plans

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Revenue.

Right in the midst of its pre-budget consultation exercise, the government continues to leave open the possibility of taxing RRSPs when, according to a Gallup poll, over 86 per cent of Canadians and Quebecers oppose such a measure.

Considering that the government did not wait until the end of its pre-budget consultation to announce that it would not reduce UI contributions below the level mentioned in the budget, will the Minister of National Revenue now reassure concerned Canadian taxpayers that he will not tax RRSPs?

[Doug Peters, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, the question is raised about the recent poll that was conducted for the Retirement Savings Alliance. That group had the opportunity to present its paper before the finance committee in the consultation process. We are listening to all the consultations and will look forward to that.

I will not, as the Minister of Finance has said in the past, comment on individual proposals at this time.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the minister continue to leave open the possibility of taxing RRSPs and increase the concerns of Canadian taxpayers at a time when people are taking and renewing RRSPs, and considering that if RRSPs were to be taxed, 44 per cent of those who participated in the poll said they would stop contributing?

[Doug Peters, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, it is not this government that is raising the questions of taxing RRSPs. It is the opposition party and the third party that have raised these questions again and again before this House.

I will repeat that we are not going to comment on the individual proposals until our budget is presented in February.

Gun Control

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the gun control proposals submitted by the justice

minister yesterday would ban the .32-calibre handgun like the one fired by Olympic gold medalist, Linda Thom. This is a calibre of handgun used in Olympic sport competitions.

Does the Minister of Justice realize that he has effectively eliminated Canadians from this Olympic sport? They will no longer be able to own and practice with this gun in preparation for world class events.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the category of handguns that this government proposes to ban is not broadly used in legitimate sporting activities. Instead, these small handguns we propose to ban are cheaply made, easily concealed and commonly used in crime. That is why we are banning them.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this is an international sporting event being eliminated for Canadian competitors which points to how poorly thought out this whole proposal really is.

I have not yet mentioned the violation of the rights to privacy, the confiscation of personal property without compensation; how poorly thought out this whole proposal really is.

As a start, will the minister make a commitment to remove the .32-calibre hand gun from this list of banned firearms?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I most certainly will not. The categories of handguns which were identified for ban were worked through with the RCMP, with expert advisers. They were identified precisely for the reasons we gave the House when we announced these decisions yesterday and they will remain on the list.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

On December 6, 1989, 14 young women were killed at the École polytechnique, in Montreal. This tragedy triggered a major movement for gun control. Yet, five years later, the government introduces a mere action plan, in spite of the commitment made by the Minister of Justice and the Prime Minister to table a bill before Christmas.

How can the minister be satisfied with his action plan, whose effects will not be measurable until the year 2003, almost 15 years after the tragedy at École polytechnique?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the question put by the hon. member echoes the pale and oblique commentary she gave yesterday following my speech in the House. It disappointments me, as much as her speech did yesterday, that instead of dealing with the substance of the matter, instead of expressing her position with respect to the substance of the decisions and the proposals, she seizes upon the form of the matter and comments caustically upon that.

This government has made its position clear. We shall introduce legislation in February to implement the decisions in the paper I tabled yesterday.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the minister claim not to have caved in to the gun lobby, considering that his eventual legislation will allow more than 4,000 Canadians to keep their AK-47s and more than half a million others to keep their hand guns for the rest of their lives, all the while keeping within the law?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, in connection with the AK-47s, those firearms will be prohibited. Future sales will be prohibited. Those who have them can keep them but not transfer them.

In connection with the banned handguns the position is, once again, future sales are prohibited. Those who have them may keep them but may not use them. They can keep them and store them safely, surrender them to the police or disable them.

Multiculturalism

[Rey D. Pagtakhan, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism.

It is ironic when MPs like the Reform member for Calgary Southeast yesterday misrepresented the cardinal principles of multiculturalism, a policy long viewed by other countries as a model for social cohesion and national unity.

Given that nearly half of Canada's people are of neither English nor French background, can the minister assure us that the government will continue to promote the cultural, economic and social benefits inherent in Canada's diversity?