Debates of Dec. 6th, 1994

Province Of Quebec

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

He also declared his intention to secure the unilateral passage of this bill by the Quebec assembly prior to any referendum.

The bill in question contains references to territorial boundaries, native affairs, federal social programs, citizenship, currency and international treaties, all of which are clearly under the sole jurisdiction of this Parliament.

Does the Government of Canada agree that the draft act respecting the sovereignty of Quebec is beyond the legal powers of the government and assembly of Quebec?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada has every confidence that the people of Quebec, when given the chance to vote on the real question of whether they want to become a part of a separate country or whether they want to stay in Canada, will vote an overwhelming yes to Canada.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we too have confidence that the people of Quebec will make the right decision but that was not my question.

Does the Government of Canada agree that the draft act respecting the sovereignty of Quebec is beyond the legal powers of the government and the assembly of Quebec?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the question of the leader of the third party is as confused as the question of the-

[Some hon. members]

No, no.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Hamilton East, ON]

The premier of Quebec has no right to put a bill before the people when the people have not chosen the route of separation.

We do not intend to enter the kind of slippery slope of speculation that the leader of the third party wants to take us down.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this debate between federalism and separatism will only be enhanced by people being presented with the facts.

I ask the Deputy Prime Minister the question once more. Does the Government of Canada agree that the draft act respecting the sovereignty of Quebec is beyond the legal powers of the government and the assembly of Quebec?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the leader of the Reform Party is playing Jacques Parizeau's game.

We do not intend to play that game. We intend to ask the people of Quebec a very clear question: Do you want to stay with Canada or do you want to separate? That is the question they will be voting on in the referendum.

Bosnia

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of defence.

While the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe is meeting in Budapest, where the international community is endlessly debating how to make the Bosnian Serbs listen to reason, the Bosnian Serbs themselves continue to thumb their nose at the UN and the major powers. They still refuse to release their 309 detainees, including 55 Canadian peacekeepers.

Does the defence minister confirm that the 55 Canadian peacekeepers held hostage for 13 days have not been released, as the Bosnian Serbs promised, and is this not another proof of the bad faith of the Serbs, who do not honour any of their commitments?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I have been informed that a meeting was held yesterday between the UN commander in Bosnia, General Rose, and the Bosnian Serbs.

The Bosnian Serbs have given General Rose assurances that all detainees would be released soon.

That means we have had assurances from the Bosnian Serb leadership, Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic, yesterday in Pale when General Rose met with them that all of the UN detainees-there are about 350 right now-will be released soon.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Serbs have promised several times to release the peacekeepers, but it has not happened yet.

Are we to understand that the Bosnian Serbs have not agreed to release the peacekeepers held hostage because the UN refuses to promise that NATO will not launch more air strikes against them?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I do agree with the hon. member that it is very frustrating to have these continual assurances from the Bosnian Serbs. We had it on Friday when Mr. Akashi, the Secretary-General's representative, negotiated a deal with the leadership and only a few people were subsequently released. We hope that this latest negotiation will bear fruit.

With respect to the specific aspect concerning NATO air strikes, that framework was agreed to by NATO last spring. Canada is a signatory to that framework. Those air strikes can be utilized when and if the double key is unlocked, i.e., the commander on the ground advocates it and NATO agrees and of course the UN representative Mr. Akashi also agrees.

Province Of Quebec

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in replying to the leader of the Reform Party the Deputy Prime Minister said, and I paraphrase it, that we intend to ask a certain question and that is the question of the unity of Canada versus the separation of Quebec.

Shall we take from that response that it is the intention of the federal government to put its own question to the people of Quebec and to the people of Canada on the clear question of separation?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

The House leader of the Reform Party is on very dangerous ground when at a very crucial point in Canada's history he and his leader and other members of his party are more intent on attacking the federal government than on attacking the separatists.

What I said in response to the question of the leader of the Reform Party was that we will not be drawn into speculation. The supposed bill that was put before the people of Quebec today by the premier of Quebec is not legitimate because the question has not been asked. The key question and the question that we will ask and ask and ask again over the next number of months to the people of Quebec is: Do you want to separate from Canada or do you want to remain?

We are confident that by working with all members of the House, working with the Reform Party, working with the Conservative Party, working with the New Democratic Party, that the cause of federalism will succeed because Quebecers want to be a full participating partner in Canada.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome two pieces of information from the Deputy Prime Minister. One is that she and her government will have a co-operative attitude with all federalist parties. The second is that she views the bill tabled today by the premier of Quebec as not legitimate.

Is it therefore the intention of the Government of Canada to make it clear to the government of Quebec and to Mr. Parizeau that this Parliament has the sole legal right and the sole jurisdiction in areas such as boundaries, native affairs, citizenship, currency, international treaties and federal pension programs? Is that the intention and does she intend to express that view clearly to Mr. Parizeau?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, what we will say to Mr. Parizeau is that if he really had the courage of his convictions, he would ask the real question, which is: Do you want to separate, yes or no?

Since he did not ask that question but tabled books and studies by commissions, he is not sure that he will win. We are convinced that Quebecers will vote to stay in Canada.

Mil Davie Shipyard

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry. This morning, we learned that the deputy ministers of Transport and Industry of the Quebec and federal governments will meet right here in Ottawa tomorrow on the future of Quebec's last great shipyard, MIL Davie, which is threatened with closure.

Can the minister tell us what mandate he gave senior officials concerning what his government intends to do to help the MIL Davie shipyard?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, as I explained several times here in the House, I think that the first thing is for MIL Davie to complete a business plan and have it accepted and supported by its shareholder, the Government of Quebec, and have it accepted by the employees of MIL Davie.

There are very difficult problems these days. We are prepared to discuss with the shareholder, the Government of Quebec, but there will still be several things to discuss. We are always ready to hold meetings like the one scheduled for tomorrow.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question concerned the mandate.

Can the Minister of Industry confirm whether, in addition to a contract for building a new ferry for the Magdalen Islands, the question of benefits from the Hibernia megaproject will be discussed, following the flagrant injustice which the Hibernia consortium did to MIL Davie?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

As always, Mr. Speaker, the Bloc engages in demagogy. Is the hon. member prepared to accept that yesterday, when the member for Roberval spoke about a process of rationalization, he had the facts wrong? He misrepresented them when he said that most of the rationalization was in Quebec.

Is the hon. member ready to accept, first, that the Government of Quebec, as MIL Davie's shareholder, is responsible for taking a position on the business plan? Does the Bloc think that the Government of Quebec is unable to solve the problems of its company, MIL Davie? If they think so, do they think that the Government of Quebec is unable to handle the business of the province of Quebec?

Small Businesses Loans Act

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government plans to increase the lending ceiling under the Small Businesses Loans Act to $12 billion. This money is available for fixed assets, not working capital.

The industry committee report "Taking Care of Small Business" identified working capital as the problem, not asset capital. In fact suppliers of funding for asset financing asked that the government not compete with them.

Why did the government not follow the recommendations of its own committee and address the working capital needs of small business particularly exporters, rather than increasing competition with the existing sources of asset capital at significant expense to taxpayers?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, let us understand first of all the proposal we brought forward yesterday. It indicates clearly that in making the amendments to the Small Businesses Loans Act it is our intention to ensure that program is of no cost to the government.

In that sense the additional fees we proposed to charge and the cap on the interest rates will contribute to that. We have indicated we will work with all stakeholders to ensure that the changes we make continue to provide an effective program for small businesses to meet their needs and will not cost the taxpayers by way of calls on the loan guarantees.

I also want to emphasize for the hon. member that the reason we raised the limit is very simple. Over the course of the last 18 months the demand by small businesses for assistance under that program has caused it to reach its limit of $4 billion. That is how successful and popular the program is. I believe it contributed directly to the 400,000 jobs that have been created in this country in the last year.

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, you do not have to be rocket surgeon to figure out that if you increase the rate, if you lower the amount that is available, if you make it easier for the banks to roll over their delinquent or their poorer loans, people are going to take advantage of it. The problem is that we are making it easy for the banks to get rich.

Canadian taxpayers now subsidize the Small Businesses Loans Act up to $100 million a year. The government proposes a 1 per cent fee to offset anticipated future losses. However, the industry committee recommended that small business loans guaranteed under the act carry an interest rate commensurate with risk.

What specific safeguards has the minister implemented that will ensure this does not become just one big subsidy program for the banks?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, you do not need to be a brain scientist to know that if you are going to get a government program right you really ought to consult with the stakeholders that are using it.

The member raises a serious question. I want to assure him that I share his concerns as he has expressed them about what could be done with the program.

The hon. member should know that we did commission a study of this program by Professor Allan Riding of Carleton University. His study indicated that the changes that were brought into effect in 1993 have actually resulted in increased loans at least 60 per cent of which were incremental to what would otherwise have been out there and were directly related to job creation.

That is why we believe the first priority should be to raise the cap so that the program continues to be as useful as it was to

small business. We will make the changes. I understand what he is asking for. That is what we will endeavour to do in the changes. We do not want the program to be a subsidy to the banks.