Debates of Dec. 7th, 1994

Draft Bill On Sovereignty

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, speaking of returning to models from the past, we can very well ask the opposition why they talk about economic association.

That being said, the federalist option is not only closest to what Quebecers want but is also the one we intend to defend when the referendum will be called. There must be not only a separatist option but also a federalist option. The federalism which we propose is flexible; it is a federalism that works. In the last year, it produced 63 agreements between the federal government and the various provinces, including 8 with Quebec. What the opposition shows us is that it is not prepared to co-operate for the good of Quebec through proper relationships between the federal government and the government of Quebec.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Deputy Prime Minister.

In response to the draft bill tabled by the Government of Quebec yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister stated, and I quote:

"We do not intend to play that game. We intend to ask the people of Quebec a very clear question: Do you want to stay with Canada or do you want to separate?"

By saying this, she implied that the federal government might again conduct its own referendum to ask Quebecers to decide on their political future.

Could the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether her government still intends to conduct its own referendum on the sovereignty of Quebec, thus bypassing the National Assembly?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, what I said yesterday and what I am saying again today is that if the Premier of Quebec intends to be frank with the people and if he is not afraid to act on his principles, the referendum question in Quebec will be quite straightforward: Do you want to separate from Canada, yes or no?

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister has therefore not excluded that possibility, although the federalist leader in Quebec, Daniel Johnson, made it quite clear yesterday that it was up to Quebecers and Quebecers alone to answer this question, in a process initiated by the National Assembly of Quebec and not by the federal government.

Nevertheless I would like to ask the Deputy Prime Minister if by excluding any federal participation in the consultation process, she means that a federal strategy is already in place and will be limited to spending tens of millions of dollars to sing the praises of Canada, as was the case in 1980.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, in fact, the only political party that is not playing fair at present is the Parti Quebecois.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Quebec government began to put forward in legislative terms its vision of a sovereign Quebec. Canadians are now expecting the federal government will be putting forward in clearer terms its vision of the federalist option which can be used to counter separatist sentiments in Quebec and to challenge discontented federalists across the country.

Can the Deputy Prime Minister share briefly with the House the essence of the federalist option with which the government proposes to counter the narrow separatist vision?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the Government of Canada will pursue the option that we have pursued for the past year and that is challenging the status quo, being prepared to move on areas like social policy reforms in areas that are desperately needed; being prepared to move to get our financial house in order so that we meet our 3 per cent of GDP objective.

We propose to convince Quebecers that Canada is a pretty good place by providing good government.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the government is not prepared to be visionary at least it must have given some thought to the principles that would guide its reactions to separatist initiatives.

For example, the charter says that Canada is founded upon the principle that recognizes the supremacy of law. If that principle is to guide federal government reactions then at least it should be willing to put forward an opinion on the legality or illegality of separatist initiatives.

Can the Deputy Prime Minister at least tell the House as a bare minimum what principles will guide federal reactions to separatist initiatives?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the guiding principle of the Government of Canada is that we have an obligation to all the people of Canada to keep this country together and we are going to fight very hard to ensure that every Canadian shares in the wealth and the greatness of the greatest nation on earth.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the inadequacy of the Deputy Prime Minister's response simply illustrates our concerns. It would appear that the federal government after having had a year to think hard on this issue is making up its responses as it goes along.

Do these half baked political answers actually represent the best thinking of the national government on the most profound challenge that a federal administration can face?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, it is the intention of the Government of Canada to support the objectives of this great nation at every turn. It is the objective of the Government of Canada to encourage all opposition parties that believe in Canada to work with us in building this great nation. Do not work with the opposition, whose sole objective is to destroy it.

Bosnia

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

Faced with the bitter failure of the efforts deployed by the international community to bring to an end the conflict in Bosnia, France and the United Kingdom went one step further today towards a pullout of troops from Bosnia, when they asked NATO and the UN to examine the conditions of an eventual withdrawal of their contingents of peacekeepers.

Is the Deputy Prime Minister in a position to report on the progress of the ongoing negotiations and tell us whether the Canadian government is also contemplating the pullout of its own peacekeepers?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has made it clear that we are not prepared to withdraw our troops from the former Yugoslavia unless the arms embargo is lifted.

We believe the situation is extremely volatile. We believe that we, the members of UNPROFOR, the United Nations in ex-Yugoslavia, continue to discharge our mandate.

We are concerned with reports from some of our allies about a precipitous withdrawal. Obviously, and this has been raised before in the House by other members, NATO has plans that are being worked on should there require a withdrawal of forces. At the moment that is not Canada's position.

Next week there will be the regular defence planning committee meeting in Brussels which I shall attend, as will General de Chastelain, chief of the defence staff, and some of these questions will be explored in greater detail.

[Translation]

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Minister of National Defence not recognize that the potential withdrawal of UNPROFOR peacekeepers from Bosnia would be, as mentioned earlier, catastrophic, both in military and humanitarian terms, for the government forces and the civilian population of Bosnia? Can he tell us what alternative Canada intends to propose to the member countries of the contact group?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we share the hon. member's analysis. The Prime Minister has been quite explicit on the point that if the United Nations forces were to leave Bosnia and Croatia in light of the conditions of the last few weeks this would cause a great deterioration of the situation and we believe the bloodshed would be considerable.

That is the reason why Canada has steadfastly maintained that the only way out of this morass is for the warring parties to agree to continue negotiations, whether that be done through proposals submitted by the contact group or others or under the auspices of the UN in general.

The only way out of this situation is for the international community to negotiate with the warring parties in Bosnia and Croatia so we can bring some kind of stability to the region.

Referendum On Quebec Sovereignty

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last night, on the TV program Le Point , the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs said that if the referendum question in Quebec is not an honest question on Quebec separation, the federal government would consider holding its own referendum and asking its own question. He said: ``I imagine that we would then have to ask that question ourselves''.

Can the minister confirm to the House that a referendum is indeed an option for the federal government?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, although the federal government does not want to hold a referendum in Quebec, the referendum question must be a clear and honest question whose results will be meaningful. In our opinion, there are only two options: flexible federalism and separation. We expect the referendum to ask that question.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I asked a question on options and I take the minister's answer to be "yes".

The minister will know that the matters raised in the Quebec sovereignty bill are of deep concern to all Canadians and through this Parliament are under the jurisdiction of all Canadians. Will the minister confirm for the House that the government's referendum options include the option of a national referendum?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat my answer.

The federal government does not want to have a referendum in Quebec. We expect the referendum that is going to be held in Quebec will be a fair referendum that will ask the question clearly. That question is: Do Quebecers want to separate or do they want to stay in Canada?

Registered Retirement Savings Plans

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

While the minister accuses the Bloc Quebecois of creating a climate of uncertainty on RRSPs, last Friday the Financial Post mentioned that the minister is considering imposing a one-per-cent tax on the assets of $500 billion held in pension plans and RRSPs.

Will the minister confirm that imposing this hidden tax of five billion dollars on assets in pension plans and RRSPs could eventually reduce by 24 per cent the value of these retirement funds?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I did not make any comment regarding a tax such as the one described by the hon. member. As the hon. member knows, I have no intention of making any comment or taking any action before the budget. However, I am here to accept representations and I do accept the hon. member's.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am certainly not suggesting such a tax, quite the contrary.

Since the government is borrowing more and more abroad and Statistics Canada tells us that the personal savings rate is at its lowest level in 23 years, does the minister not agree that taxing RRSPs and pension plans would significantly hurt savings and investments?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that the level of savings in Canada has to go up, if we are serious about promoting a growth-based economy. One of the best ways to achieve that is to have political certainty, and it is my hope that we will have such certainty before long.

Bosnia

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, a week ago the Minister of National Defence said this about Bosnia: "We in Canada believe that obviously those detained should be released, that the hostilities should cease, there should be a ceasefire and that the Sarajevo airport should be reopened". He then hoped that the combatants would get down to meaningful discussions and negotiations within the next few days.

The minister is zero and five. Will the government stop wringing its hands and hoping for miracles and call for the multilateral withdrawal of UN forces from Bosnia?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I answered that a little earlier and the Prime Minister has answered it. No.

We continue to remain extremely concerned about the plight of the 55 Canadians detained in Bosnia. We had assurances as late as yesterday that the Bosnian Serb forces will be releasing those people detained, including the Canadians. We hope they will discharge their promises at this particular time.

The reasoning the hon. member is using is not shared by the government. We are not wringing our hands. The deputy minister of foreign affairs was in Belgrade yesterday and gave a very stiff message to the president and foreign minister of Yugoslavia, as it is constituted in Belgrade.

Our Prime Minister has also been very forceful in demanding the return of the Canadians who are being detained.

When the Prime Minister returns later this evening we will be having further discussions with him. Perhaps we will be able to clarify our position and mollify the hon. member somewhat.