Debates of Feb. 23rd, 1994

The Budget

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, there is already a minimum tax on the income of major companies. We are levying it on banks, insurance companies, all major companies. It already exists. I wish I could say it did not exist, so that I could then levy the tax, but what can I say, it already exists.

Second, in our budget, we have changed the private corporations taxation system for the exact reasons cited by the hon. member. I am sorry, but perhaps we could pursue this discussion tomorrow, after the hon. member has had the chance to read through the budget.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Finance. On page 58 of the budget plan the minister indicated that the Spending Control Act would not exist after 1995-96.

Would the minister consider extending that act just on the basis it could be a benchmark or a target for the government that would recognize the goodwill of the government in keeping the deficit or the expenditure pattern below the level expected here?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the Spending Control Act put in place by the previous government is a reasonably ineffective piece of legislation in that it permitted borrowing from one year to the other year, going back and going forward. It allowed governments to engage in a fair amount of accounting tomfoolery.

When we take a look at the deficit projections we have made and at the spending projections we have made which by the third year, to respond to the member, will have us spending lower than this year, from our point of view it is very clear our spending targets are substantially lower than anything that would be contained in the Spending Control Act. That is why we are not going to extend it.

As the Deputy Prime Minister has said, why do we need a benchmark; we are in the process of hitting home runs.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, would the minister consider bringing in a tougher Spending Control Act? Would the minister commit the government to rethink current expenditure projections and introduce this fall a minibudget outlining expenditure reduction targets for the next three fiscal years?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, as I have already indicated we are quite prepared-in fact we plan to meet with the finance committee with a full set of projections in terms of next year and all our proposals-to spend as much time and go into as much detail as members opposite want on each and every spending item and on each and every item contained within those sets of projections.

In terms of the question as to whether we are going to bring in a minibudget this fall, the answer is no because we are going to hit the targets set in the budget laid before the House.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. I will start by quoting him: "The unemployment insurance changes being proposed in this budget, estimated at $5.5 billion, must be seen as interim measures until the full social security reform, estimated at around $7.5 billion, is in place".

He went on to say: "That reform will lead to further significant reductions in unemployment insurance expenditures".

How can the minister reconcile the beginning of consultations on social program reform with the extensive-$7.5 billion-and definite measures announced yesterday?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I just want to give my friend a rest.

I would be very happy to answer the hon. member because I think the logic is very clear. We have announced in the budget a clear stimulant for job creation. By reducing the premiums on the unemployment insurance rate we will be putting in place the creation and maintenance of over 40,000 jobs in the country. That is what we were elected to do. It is the beginning of a real changeover as to how we can go from a system which would rather have people on UI than have people in jobs.

I ask the hon. member to now commit himself, the party and all Canadians to help redesign the programs of unemployment insurance, the Canada assistance plan, employment, training and education so that the start we made yesterday can be continued throughout the next year and we can have a brand new system of employment and social security so that we can get hundreds of thousands of Canadians back to work.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. How can this government, which raised unemployment insurance premiums in January, be the same one now telling us that it will create jobs by maintaining them at that level and reducing them next year by the same amount?

My question is this: Is it not indecent to make the unemployed pay for the government's inability to manage its own affairs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I remind the hon. member of what she said on January 19 in the House of Commons when she was very upset about the fact that unemployment insurance premiums were too high. She said at that time: "Don't raise them". We have gone one better, we have brought them down.

I would say to the hon. member that not only did we bring them down for the next two years, but if we continue on this path of reform we will bring them down even further and create even more jobs for Canadians.

Advance Payments For Crops Act

[Paul Steckle, Liberal, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

In our short period in office Canadians have been happy to see that this government lives up to its promises and commitments. During the election we as a party promised repeatedly to reinstate the interest free portion of Canada's cash advance programs under the Advance Payments for Crops Act.

Can the minister inform the House when the government is going to eliminate the interest charges on the first $50,000 of advance payments?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the question.

I fully acknowledge the good policy ideas on agriculture which were contained in our red book during last fall's election and which enjoy a great amount of support among farmers and farm organizations in this country, including the proposals having to do with cash advances referred to in the hon. member's question.

I am indeed anxious to proceed with improvements in our agricultural cash advance system subject to only one thing, and that is I want to solicit and receive the advice and recommendations of major farm organizations in this country. I would like them to confirm to me their concurrence that the $50 million to $75 million that we might spend on cash advances in any particular fiscal year is in their judgment the highest and best possible use for those funds, bearing in mind that the overall pot of money for agricultural programs is limited and we must set our priorities.

The Estimates

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

For the last 25 years Parliament's annual review of the estimates has led to a total reduction in government expendi-

tures of one-millionth of one per cent. Clearly the system has not been allowed to work. It has been 20 years since the government last accepted a recommendation to reduce expenditures.

Therefore, I ask the Minister of Finance if he is prepared to accept recommendations from committees to reduce the estimates, thereby allowing Parliament to do its job.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, there is no government that is more desirous of having Parliament participate in the righting of the financial problems of this country.

The answer to the member is an unequivocal yes. If parliamentary committees come up with suggestions that enable us to improve the financial conditions or the financial administration of this country, you can rest assured that the government will respond very favourably to any such recommendations.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, according to the budget tabled yesterday, the government plans to spend $163 billion this coming year.

Is the Minister of Finance now telling us that because he is committed to deficit reduction he is prepared to accept reductions as recommended by the committees to the main estimates as they will soon be tabled?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I think it is perhaps the same question and therefore I would give exactly the same answer. The answer is yes.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the budget tabled yesterday, the Minister of Finance decided to freeze transfers to the provinces to save $500 million in 1995 and $1.5 billion in 1996. A quick calculation shows that the Quebec government would thus lose about $600 million over two years.

Are we to understand that the Minister of Finance has decided to follow his predecessors' strategies and shift part of his deficit directly onto the provinces?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is absolutely not. First of all, we should say that when we signed our equalization project with the provinces a month and a half ago, we were very generous with the provinces and certainly with Quebec.

Second, what we did this time around is that, instead of cutting, we decided to freeze for two years. We will declare a moratorium, a period during which the Minister of Human Resources can work with the provinces to really save money on both sides. We hope that, with the social security reform led by the minister, this will not cost the provinces or the provincial governments anything. I had discussions with the provincial finance ministers, including the Quebec finance minister, and this approach was quite popular.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, by directly raising the number of provincially-supported welfare recipients through unemployment insurance cuts while reducing transfers to the provinces, by saving $2 billion on the backs of the provinces, does the Minister of Finance not agree that he is crippling the provincial governments, which will soon be forced to make further cuts at the expense of the poorest Canadians?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as part of our new literacy program we are going to recommend that members opposite start reading the budget more carefully because they clearly have not read the full details.

In the budget is an $800 million special fund to work with the provinces to develop a program to get the chronically unemployed back to work, $800 million to help the people most in need to get them back to work and back in the workforce.

It is about time that members of the opposition began to recognize it is time for a real change so we can get Canadians back to work.

Indian Affairs

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

On Monday in the House the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development stated that the Sawridge band of northern Alberta is probably one of the richest bands in the country. Yet, and I quote, "that band is saying to its people that it will not share".

For the minister's information I spent three years in the early 1980s as an official with the Alberta government helping to prepare native and Métis communities in northern Alberta for local self-government. I observed firsthand both the business acumen and the generosity of the Sawridge band under its chief Senator Walter Twinn.

I ask the minister what evidence he can provide to back up this outrageous insult to the Sawridge band.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the question is what evidence. The evidence is before the Federal Court.

Right now the Sawridge band under Senator Twinn and his family has a case before the court which in essence says that the Bill C-31-women should not be able to come back and share.

As a government in the early 1980s we brought legislation into the Constitution which would do away with that. In essence it says that a woman should not be discriminated against solely because she is a woman. That is the basis of it.

We supported the development of Bill C-31 which was brought in by the Conservative government, but we fathered that bill. Today we are back and we are saying the issue is this, do you support-

[An hon. member]

Fathered?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

We personed that bill. Today we are back again saying there is poverty, there is richness, there is discrimination and non-discrimination, but we stand on the side of those who are discriminated against and those who are poor. That is the story of what is happening over here.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question.

Yesterday the minister completely side-stepped a question about his alleged remark to Alberta natives over the weekend that the Reform Party hates Indians and wants to be the defender of the white man.

I ask the minister, did he or did he not make those remarks attributed to him by the media, yes or no?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, when I was much younger I was very influenced by, as a matter of fact, a Tory. I hate to say this, but it is true. Former Prime Minister John Diefenbaker came to Sault Ste. Marie and said that he loved this House and because it was partisan it did not mean that we could not walk away friends. He loved the partisanship. That is the way I approach this House of Commons. I could never love it as much as he did. I could never be as good as he was.

What I am saying is that I do not believe I made such a statement. I have gone further. I have checked with others who attended the same meeting and they do not remember such a statement being made. It is unfortunate that such an impression is being created. It is unfortunate that the Reform Party is being dragged into the wrong side of this issue.

The Reform Party does not want to be on the side of this issue where they in fact look like or appear to be supporting the rich against the poor, women who should be back in the band on the side of Mr. and Mrs. Walter Twinn.