Debates of April 15th, 1994

Social Program Reform

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada is committed to overhauling the social security system. We want the process to be open and we want to work in co-operation with the provinces.

In this regard, the government has a role to play in manpower training and in the labour market. To carry out its role, it must consult with all groups and governments to find ways of making the system as effective and as beneficial as possible for all Canadians.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development confirmed yesterday that he intended to keep to his schedule and make his reform initiatives public before the end of June. Will he not admit that his bulldozing operation flies in the face of the unanimous consensus that emerged yesterday in the National Assembly and is nothing short of a constitutional incursion into the field of manpower and social programs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member doth protest too much.

The fact of the matter is that in the last two months we have had two major rounds of consultations with the provinces, unprecedented during that period of time. Agreements were reached in a number of areas of joint collaboration, particularly to go forward and look at ways in which we can reduce waste and duplication, where we can begin to examine a variety of initiatives we can take together. Just a week ago my deputy minister travelled throughout all provinces to discuss with them the nature of the agenda.

The hon. member says this is bulldozing. I say it is the most active process of consultation and co-operation that has been seen because we want to make this an open process.

Let us be fair about one thing. The hon. member opposite and his colleagues have no interest in this process of reform. They have no interest in co-operation. All they want to do is destroy this process because they want to destroy the country along with it.

Conflict In Former Yugoslavia

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, accompanied by the Minister of National Defence, minimized the seriousness of the situation in Bosnia by comparing it to "a last-minute glitch"; in addition, he expected a quick settlement for the 16 Canadian peacekeepers held hostage by the Serbian armed forces. We know that the situation has degenerated since then, because the Serbian forces have taken other UN troops and observers hostage, bringing the total number to 155.

Can the Minister of Defence report on the negotiations which were to begin this morning between UN representatives and the Serbian military forces for the release of the hostages?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, this morning, our people in Bosnia were able to contact our soldiers; the situation is calm, and I must add that the soldiers are not being mistreated.

We hope to have some resolution of this situation soon. There was a meeting this morning between Mr. Akashi, the representative of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, and the Serb leader Karadzic. I think that meeting is still going on. As soon as we have any results of that we will let members know.

I do resent somewhat the assertion of the hon. member that we are trying to minimize this. We find this situation completely unacceptable and we are very concerned.

Given the delicacy of the problem in the former Yugoslav republic of Bosnia it is wise for everyone to be rational at this particular stage because the lives of Canadians and others are at stake.

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the minister that the situation is sensitive and cause for great concern. That is why my second question is for the minister.

Can the minister enlighten us on Canada's role in the present negotiations involving the UN, the United States and Russia, among others, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs mentioned yesterday in a press conference?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I should point out the Minister of Foreign Affairs is in Montreal today. However he has been holding discussions throughout the early hours of this morning and right now with his various counterparts in the NATO countries. I believe he talked with Mr. Hurd a few moments ago. These discussions are going on at the highest levels with our NATO allies and with a representative at the United Nations.

Social Programs

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Human Resources Development how long the cancellation of Monday's federal-provincial meeting will delay the minister's social reform program?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it will have a major impact on the timing.

In the very delicate and complicated negotiations that must go on not only with provinces but with a number of groups of Canadians of course we are going to have to make adjustments. However I still believe we can meet a timetable of bringing in major changes by the end of this year provided we have the goodwill and collaboration. After all, there are millions of Canadians who want a change, who need change and are concerned about change. It is too bad a few individuals are attempting to put a road block in it like the hon. member who just spoke earlier.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the government of Quebec did not want to participate in Monday's meeting, that is Quebec's business but other provinces were prepared to attend.

Why is the minister allowing the Quebec government to delay not only the federal government's planning but that of the nine other provinces as well?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it was my decision to postpone the meeting. It was not dictated by any province. I just felt if we are going to reach agreements and if we are going to have a good climate of co-operation then we should give one province, several provinces or whatever the time they feel is necessary.

We had a useful agenda in front of us. We were going to be meeting with the aboriginal groups. We were going to be looking at some of the strategic initiatives. We were going to put in place an agenda for the reform of the child care system and get those started. However, those are all items we can continue.

As I said yesterday, I will be recommending that we have a meeting of senior officials within the next week or so. We can discuss how a further ministerial meeting can get the process under way and we can make sure that all the provinces feel they can be a full part of the process.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what Canadians really want to know is whether the minister is allowing the Government of Quebec to drive the agenda of the Government of Canada.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the conclusions or the implications drawn by the hon. member are wrong. Let us try and put this thing into perspective.

We are doing social reform review for one simple reason. We want to get people in this country back to work. We want to give people a greater sense of income security. We want to help a lot of very poor children who are not being nurtured properly. Those are the reasons we are doing it.

We recognize in a federal system like this that we must also work carefully with all our partners. I will do everything I can to make sure all the partners feel comfortable within that process, that they are a part of that process and that it is not being dictated by one government or by one group but is an attempt to find a consensus.

Unemployment Insurance

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

According to an internal report of the Department of Human Resources Development, the unemployment insurance changes announced in the last budget will deprive some 44,000 people of UI benefits and put 19,000 on welfare.

How can the minister justify his changes to the unemployment insurance program when they clearly restrict access to UI benefits and increase welfare rolls, without offering these thousands of people any job creation alternative?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the first thing I would like to point out in that analysis is that the numbers are far, far smaller than the members of the opposition were claiming during budget time. In fact, they were making claims that hundreds of thousands of people would be thrown on to the welfare rolls. In fact, the best estimate we have is that it is only 19,000.

We do not take that lightly. That is the reason in the budget by the Minister of Finance we have initiated a $6 billion infrastructure development program that according to the President of the Treasury Board will create close to 100,000 new jobs across the country. We will be putting in place a number of new employment training programs for these people. We will be stimulating small business.

The hon. member forgets that one of the real results of the budget is that by reducing the UI premiums we will in fact be creating a climate where 60,000 to 70,000 jobs will be provided. All those jobs will be available.

It would seem to me the hon. member should be looking at how we create jobs and create growth rather than simply at how we keep a system that is not working.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

The minister seems to have no idea what it is like when 44,000 people lose their UI benefits. Does he admit that, in addition to offloading major expenditures onto the provinces, his reform excludes 44,000 people from training programs that would have helped them to find jobs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I will say one thing to the hon. member. If he can get the co-operation of his colleagues, and perhaps some of his colleagues in the opposition party in the province of Quebec, we would be able in the next several months to create new programs to help deal with unemployment and to revise our social security network so we could put far more people back to work.

The purpose of our reform is to put in place systems so that people do not have to be on social assistance and do not have to be on UI but get the chance to go back to work. We want to help them to do it.

Youth Employment

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Yesterday the minister suggested that one of my colleagues should not question the youth employment strategy because it had not yet been released. However yesterday's Financial Post carried a detailed description of the program, complete with direct quotes from the minister.

Why does the minister feel that he can comment on information leaked from his department when asked by the media, but members on this side of the House cannot even comment or ask questions?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the youth employment strategy is still not released, contrary to all leaks by whomever.

The fact of the matter is that if the hon. member has an iota of patience, if he can wait perhaps an hour or two, he will be in full possession of exactly what we intend to do to give hope and opportunity to the young people of the country.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the answer.

I have learned that he has planned a news conference for later today to release the details of the program. I may be new to Parliament but I hear that holding Friday afternoon press conferences is an old Ottawa trick. Apparently the idea is to get the information out without any chance for opposition MPs to question or criticize before the following week.

It is obvious the announcement has been ready for several days. Why is the minister trying to sneak it out the back door on a Friday afternoon?

[The Speaker]

I would caution all hon. members please not to give motive to any action by any other member. The final question is in order, but the preamble was a bit off. I would ask hon. members to consider that.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I will make my answer short.

We work Friday afternoons. Maybe the Reform does not. We want to work Friday afternoons. Not only that, I am going to be working Saturday and Sunday as well. If the hon. member can

get back here in time on Monday I will be happy to answer his questions.

[The Speaker]

We are all hard at work today.

Action Plan For Young People

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. The minister has just informed us today that he will be holding a press conference to announce, with great pomp I imagine, his apprenticeship plan for Canadian youth.

But this plan implies an obvious infringement on the provinces' jurisdiction over education. One simple question: Did the minister make a point, before announcing this plan, of securing the support of the Quebec government?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I met with all the ministers of education and labour a month ago in Toronto where we outlined the directions of the program.

We indicated at that time we would be working in co-operation with the provinces, as we presently do, on the existing co-op education program which the provinces utilize at the moment. We have agreed to establish working groups of officials in each province so that we can ensure the programs are totally harmonized and there is no overlap or duplication.

Again I come back to one central fact. It strikes me as exceedingly strange, when there are 400,000 young people in the country desperate to go back to work, wanting to find a place where they can get serious training in the workplace, that the only question the hon. member has is how do we stop the program rather than how do we go ahead with it.