Debates of April 21st, 1994

The Environment

[Len Taylor, NDP, The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK]

Mr. Speaker, tomorrow, April 22, is Earth Day and although polling experts say that eight out of ten Canadians are deeply concerned about ecological issues the present public policy agenda has been completely taken over by economic concerns, the debt and the deficit, social programs and unemployment.

Although these issues are important their significance pales next to the long term significance of a healthy and sustainable environment.

It is time we acknowledged it is not only the federal deficit that threatens future generations of Canadians. If we destroy the earth's ability to support our way of life there definitely will be fewer jobs and social programs. The economic issues that preoccupy public policy makers now will be completely irrelevant.

Therefore, on Earth Day I urge all Canadians who are concerned about the environment to continue to try to keep it at the top of the public agenda. It is only through constant attention that the environment will be placed high on the government's list of priorities.

Direct Democracy

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the city of Rossland, British Columbia has regularized direct democracy through the use of citizens initiatives.

Rossland has adopted a constitution that gives taxpayers the right to challenge council's decisions. It has energized community participation, protected the public process from interest groups, saved taxpayers money and surprise, it has not resulted in irresponsible decisions.

One hundred and fifty years ago politicians wondered aloud if lay people could be trusted to vote. A century ago they questioned whether women could handle the power of suffrage.

Today some politicians ask the question: Can the average citizen be trusted to make decisions between elections? Well history reveals and the experience in Rossland confirms that the answer is a resounding yes.

Let us put aside our private political agendas and get on with the agenda of the people by giving citizens a way to challenge and even initiate federal legislation.

Social Program Reform

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, last night in Toronto, the Prime Minister told his audience what he thought of the unemployed and people on welfare. To him, these are unproductive people who, and I quote, "sit around at home drinking beer". That is how the leader of this government referred to people who feel rejected and insecure because they have lost their jobs and have very little hope of finding new jobs in spite of all their efforts. Coming from anyone else, such comments would be unacceptable, and they are even more so, coming from the Prime Minister.

I want to ask the Prime Minister, who has discredited those who are suffering the most in Canada and Quebec, to withdraw his insulting remarks and specifically apologize in this House today to those he so offended.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition would read the whole speech, I also said that people on welfare and unemployment insurance have only one desire, and that is to have the dignity of work, and that they do not want to sit around doing nothing. Perhaps the term I used was unfortunate, but I did mention, and that was the theme of our election campaign, "the dignity of work". I said there were people who were at home doing nothing, and I could have said it differently. If this was offensive, I apologize. What I meant and what I said repeatedly during the election campaign

and what I say when I travel across the country today, is that people want all governments and all members of this House to work together to create jobs. They are sick and tired of partisan squabbling. Instead of concentrating on the real issues which are about giving everyone dignity and jobs, they talk about independence, separation and constitutional problems, at a time when people want jobs. These people want to work. If I offended anyone, I apologize. The hon. member should have read the whole speech. It is a reflection of our election platform-dignity and work.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, it was not a slip of the tongue, because the Prime Minister also said that he wanted to break the current attitude of the unemployed.

I think the Prime Minister would have gained in stature if he had simply apologized today. The case would have been closed, and we would have gone on to other matters.

How can he stand there and refuse to apologize and withdraw what he said, when in his election campaign, he promised the needy and the unemployed he would give them renewed hope and dignity? His reference to people sitting around drinking beer reflects prejudice and contempt.

Should we be surprised that this government is so insensitive and so intent on attacking social programs-the Prime Minister's strategy to break the attitude of the unemployed?

What kind of message is being sent to potential employers who may want to hire these unemployed workers, when they are told they are lazy and good for nothing?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition had read the text or had been there, he would have known that I said Canada's workers are the best. I said that Canadians spend the most on training and giving people the advantage of a university education, and that we spend more than any other Western country on education in this country. I was very positive in what I said. I said I was an optimist who was confident in the skills of Canadian workers and in Canada's future.

However, these are difficult circumstances, because at a time when we want to take specific action to improve the situation in this country, we have an opposition that is intent on destroying a country that could provide long-term guarantees for all workers in Canada.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, I may remind the Prime Minister that we were not the ones who said that the unemployed were people who sat around at home drinking beer, and that separation is not the issue here. What is the issue is respect for people, and beyond our social programs, we must still respect the dignity of people who are suffering.

Instead of trying to enlist newspaper editors in his crusade against the needy, the Prime Minister should have, I believe-and today, I want to ask: Does he agree that he should have offered them a real job recovery program to restore the hope and dignity of the unemployed and the needy?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what we are trying to do. We are proposing changes in Canada which are absolutely needed at this time to find jobs and give the people the dignity of work.

The Leader of the Opposition is always talking about jurisdiction and the Constitution, not caring at all about the real problems of people getting jobs.

I repeat what I said in a speech that the best workers in the world are the Canadian workers. They do not want to stay home. They are not happy when they do not work. They are not happy not being productive. They want all of us to work to make sure they get jobs and have the dignity of work. They do not want us to talk about the Constitution or jurisdiction. They want us to create jobs and this government will do that.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the Prime Minister of Canada be surprised at the criticism directed at a system that only results in unemployment and misery? How can he be surprised at this?

For two weeks now, the federal government has been in total disarray over the issue of social program reform. As a result, war has been declared between the provinces and the federal government.

To top it off, we learned today that the Minister of Human Resources put on quite a show, even though he did not write the script. He said: "We did not have a document to table because, quite frankly, I still do not have one in hand. I have not presented any proposals to Cabinet or to my caucus. I am not ready to do so yet."

That is what the Minister of Human Resources said. Can the Prime Minister confirm whether the moratorium his Minister of Finance referred to yesterday and that was agreed to by his ministers and the Quebec Minister of Finance is due to the improvisation to which the Minister of Human Resources Development admittedly resorted?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

I do not understand what the hon. member is saying. He is always saying that we must consult.

When the minister rises and, in all honesty, says to the people: "I cannot put any proposals on the table right now because I want to sit down with all my counterparts and explore different options in order to get the results that we all want", this is an approach that will benefit employment in the country and help people acquire the dignity that comes through employment. Now the member is getting all upset because the minister is holding consultations.

Would the member prefer it if the minister showed up with a clear, final plan and used the majority in this House to push it through in one week? We could do it, but that is not our style. Our style is to convince all provinces and all stakeholders that we must work together in the interest of creating jobs and giving workers some dignity.

I cannot understand why the member does not want us to hold consultations. We will have to make a note of that.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, are we to understand from the Prime Minister's wishy-washy answer that a moratorium has now been declared and negotiated, as his Minister of Finance indicated yesterday, between his ministers and the Quebec Minister of Finance? Has a moratorium been declared, yes or no, and is it due to the lack of preparedness on the part of his Minister of Human Resources Development who is doing a poor job?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development had called a meeting for Monday. Several governments said they were not ready yet and would like a few more weeks. The government agreed to a moratorium-if you want to call it that-to give them time to prepare. The Minister of Finance has done the same thing. There have been more consultations between the Minister of Finance and his provincial counterparts in the last six months than ever before in Canada.

Since they have asked us for more time, we will give them more time, because we want everyone to work together to find a good solution. However, the system will have to change one day because if it does not, unemployment will continue to increase, people will grow discouraged and they will lose even more of their dignity.

All parliamentarians, whether federal or provincial, have a duty to work toward a common goal, that is creating jobs, enhancing productivity, increasing the country's wealth and building a better society than the one we have now.

Bosnia

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

The recent kidnapping of Canadian soldiers, the detention of other UN personnel and increased offensive action in and around Gorazde make it rather obvious that Serbian leaders have little appreciation or respect for the UN forces deployed in Bosnia or the will of the UN to take effective action.

The situation in Gorazde is at or even past the critical stage. Many people are dead, many more wounded and many are in imminent danger.

The Prime Minister has spoken with President Clinton and I understand cabinet met this morning. Has the government come to a decision as to whether to support the UN in its request for air strikes?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the description of the situation illustrated by the hon. member's question. Clearly the situation has evolved in a totally unacceptable way.

Efforts have been made to bring all the parties to the table to agree on a peace plan. Unfortunately, while the Croatians and the Muslims have agreed and have signed an agreement in Washington, the Bosnian Serbs have not been willing to co-operate and participate in peace operations.

Requests have been made by the Secretary-General of the United Nations to apply a solution similar to that applicable to Sarajevo and the other free areas in Bosnia.

Cabinet met this morning. It was decided that as we have done in the past on an undertaking by the Prime Minister, when there is an important decision of this nature to make, we will consult Parliament.

This is why the House leader has been instructed to consult with his counterparts to agree to an emergency debate tonight on this very question.

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplemental is for the Minister of National Defence. However I want to acknowledge the co-operation of the Minister of Foreign Affairs in agreeing to our request for this debate this evening.

The minister will be aware that the Canadian forces commander in Bosnia has now refused to deploy his forces into Serb controlled territory out of concern for the safety of his troops.

If air strikes are initiated, what further action will the government take to protect Canadian forces from possible retaliation?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I would rather not deal with this hypothetical situation in today's very emotionally charged context.

I think we have to acknowledge the fact that Lieutenant-Colonel Moore has taken the right decision to minimize the danger to his people in and around Visoko. However any further steps and any further anticipation of difficult action will have to be measured by him as the hours and the days go by. I do not think that we should prejudge anything he may do.

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, if Canada agrees to NATO carrying out the air strikes, has the minister discussed with the United Nations the commitment of more UN troops, and is the government considering sending more Canadian troops to Bosnia?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, a request was made some time ago by the Secretary-General of the United Nations to have much larger contingents of troops in the area than the one that is currently there. Unfortunately so far very few countries have responded positively.

Although Canada at some point was wondering whether we were pursuing peacekeeping missions, we have agreed to commit the same level of troops, close to 2,000 soldiers, serving under the UN for another six months.

Clearly we believe that our own effort is taxing our troops substantially. Canada would like to see other countries respond more quickly to the UN secretary's request. Unfortunately this has not taken place.

Foreign Affairs

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, like my colleague from the Reform Party, I would like to put my question to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. We know that the final decision of the 16 NATO countries regarding air strikes is to be made tomorrow. I would like to know where negotiations stand, particularly with respect to Russia's position.

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult for me to state the position of the Russian authorities. We read, as the hon. member probably did, the dispatches saying that the Russian authorities are ambivalent about the proposals that were made. On the one hand, the Russian authorities deplore the Serbs' lack of co-operation and think that the Bosnian Serbs should have responded to the invitation and joined the Croats and the Moslems in signing a peace agreement. On the other hand, they expressed certain reservations about the use of air strikes.

At this time, I can only say that discussions are going on between the various authorities who want this conflict to end as quickly as possible, and I think that we will have to wait for these discussions to be completed before we know the exact position of every power involved in this conflict.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what I would have liked to know is when NATO members decide whether or not to step up the air strikes, will the Russian representatives be consulted first, unlike what was done before? Could the minister tell us whether contacts were made between NATO and Russian leaders?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

When I had a chance to speak with President Clinton yesterday, I raised this point with him. I asked him what was happening with Russia. He told me he would communicate with the Russians as he had placed a call at about the same time, and I will speak with him again tonight. He assured me that Mr. Yeltsin would be contacted before NATO makes a decision tomorrow morning.

Social Programs

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

The government is about to undertake a thorough review of all social programs including the unemployment insurance system. At a time when the Prime Minister ought to be demonstrating compassion and understanding to unfortunate Canadians, he insults them with insensitive remarks.

I am reminded of last fall when he chastised Kim Campbell for her arrogant intellectualism in using the same beer drinking analogy.

A successful overhaul of the social safety system will require skilful and understanding leadership. On the basis of his remarks last evening, could the Prime Minister explain why Canadians should have any confidence that he is able to meet this challenge?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the member would take the time to read my speech she would see what I said.

In my speech I said that Canadian workers are the best in the world and are the best prepared. I also said that Canadian people do not want to stay home doing nothing; they want to work.

Perhaps I used one word there that I should not have used. I could have said something else. Sometimes in a speech one uses a word that perhaps in context is misplaced, but I clearly said that they want to work. I know this, since I have served in Parliament for a long time. Canadian people desire to work. A lot of people say: "Don't do anything". On the contrary we

want to do something. Nobody likes to be on welfare. Nobody likes to be on employment insurance. They want jobs.

This is why we have created some programs and are trying to apply the resources of government to programs where the people who are unemployed will be productive. This is what we want to do. It is the program of the government.

Some people are arguing that we want to do it too fast. That is one of the problems, that we were too keen to solve the problem. Some of the provincial governments were afraid that we were moving too fast. Yesterday the premier of Ontario made a speech in which he said he wanted to work with us and find some solutions.

We will take the time that we need because we believe in the dignity of the people. Rather than refusing to do something, we are working on it. We hope the hon. member will support us in our endeavours.