Debates of May 11th, 1994

Taxation

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. The Toronto Star quotes the chairman of the finance committee, which must submit its report on an alternative to the GST on June 1. The committee chairman, the member for Downsview, suggests that a single sales tax must be contemplated and that such a tax should be

hidden to reduce the anger and frustration of consumers when they realize they are paying 15 per cent tax on the sales price.

Can the Minister of Finance assure us that he has ruled out the finance committee chairman's suggestion to put in place a single national sales tax collected by Ottawa?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, this issue is before the finance committee. But I will still answer the question. The hon. member knows full well that the committee, including members from the Bloc Quebecois, is now working on the report.

They are in the process of writing it and I eagerly await it. However, I should tell you that the hon. member's position contradicts that of his leader because when he says we will harmonize taxation between the two levels of government, we will really do it because that is what many provinces want.

We want to introduce a sales tax that respects provincial jurisdiction because that is what the business community, consumers and provincial governments want.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister also share the opinion of the finance committee chairman, who claims that a hidden tax would reduce "counter shock"-the anger and frustration of consumers when they realize they are paying 15 per cent in taxes?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I said many times that I am not in a position to make comments on a report that has not been submitted yet.

But I eagerly await the report and if the hon. member knows everything about it, perhaps we could meet later.

Violent Crime

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Over the past several weeks Reform MPs have repeatedly questioned the government on criminal justice issues. The purpose has been to prod the government into actually doing something about violent crime.

In response the minister has said that violent crime is not going to be resolved by tinkering with statutes or changing acts and that the real answer is to attack the underlying causes of crime.

Could the minister specifically identify the underlying causes of crime to which he refers and tell the House whether any of the reforms he has promised will have any immediate effect on these causes and on the safety of Canadians?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the record will disclose that in response to the questions that have been put I have said that there are already two answers to the issue of crime.

The first is legislative reform to ensure that the Criminal Code and the Young Offenders Act and all the other statutes are enforced as effectively as possible. That is one response.

But of equal and perhaps in the long term greater importance, I have spoken about the root causes of crime. In that connection I have spoken about developing at long last a national strategy for crime prevention and in order to achieve that establishing a national crime prevention council. We propose to do just that.

In response to the question by the hon. leader of the Reform Party may I say this. The specific steps will be the creation of the council and the reform of the statutes. I have mentioned that in weeks ahead I will be bringing to the House proposed amendments to both the Criminal Code and the Young Offenders Act.

As for the root causes, I believe the national council on crime prevention will once and for all collaborate, harness and put to constructive use the energy you see in communities across the country, including Edmonton, which is among the leaders, toward community based programs for crime prevention linking social services and-

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

But, Mr. Speaker, I did not really hear any references to the underlying causes of crime to which the minister refers and I did not hear specifically any reference to the failure of individuals to accept responsibility for their actions as one of the roots of crime.

Many Canadians no longer have confidence in the Liberal philosophy of the past, the philosophy behind the original Young Offenders Act that individuals are not primarily responsible for their own actions and that crime is primarily the fault of society.

Will the minister state unequivocally today that whatever the details of the criminal justice reforms he brings forward they will fully recognize the principle of personal accountability for criminal acts?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I can give that commitment without hesitation. I am confident the hon. member will find that in the proposals we will bring forward to lengthen the maximum

sentences for serious violent crimes in the Young Offenders Act, for specific changes in the sentencing provisions of the Criminal Code, that he will find ample scope for accountability by individuals who commit crime.

Let me say something else in response to his question. He asks about root causes. The record of committees and commissions and inquiries is replete with references to the fact that longer jail terms and harsher penalties and more police do not solve the problem of crime because they do not get at its causes. The causes are patent. They are poverty and they are dysfunctional families and they are abusive children and it is hopelessness.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the minister.

Yesterday in question period the minister made reference to a meeting he held with Margo B., the Quebec mother raped while doing secretarial work in a church by an inmate of the Cowansville penitentiary on day parole.

The minister will recall that Margo B. asked the Quebec court to compel the accused to take a blood test to determine whether he was HIV positive but the court denied her request saying that such an intervention would compromise the rights of the accused to privacy and security of the person under the charter.

Would the minister assure us that the criminal justice reforms he proposes will establish the principle that where the rights of a perpetrator of crime and the rights of a victim of crime conflict it is the rights of the victim that will prevail in Canadian law.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I spoke to this issue yesterday in the House. I said on that occasion on the facts of that particular case and dealing specifically with the right of a victim of sexual aggression to know whether the perpetrator is infected with a communicable disease is a matter we are considering.

Questions of constitutional law and privacy arise but I want to assure the hon. member, as I assured the House yesterday, that by the fall of this year we will bring forward a decision on that question and let the House know what our approach is. We are giving consideration to making such tests mandatory for the sake of the peace of mind of people like Margo B.

Tax Havens

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in his report, the Auditor General denounced some provisions of the Income Tax Act that allow big Canadian corporations to invest in tax havens and bring dividends back to Canada without paying a cent of tax. The problem arises because Canada signed tax conventions with several countries that are now considered as tax havens.

How does the Minister of Finance justify having countries like Barbados, Cyprus and Malta, tax havens recognized by the Auditor General, still on the list of countries with which Canada has tax conventions that unduly allow some Canadian companies to avoid taxes?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows very well that the key word really is "unduly", that the countries with which we signed these treaties impose some taxes and that if we did not have treaties with them, Canadian companies would be liable to double taxation, which would make them uncompetitive.

The hon. member also knows that in the Budget of February 22, we eliminated many of these openings so that we could tax passive investment, in order to reduce taxes on our companies' operating profits.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, all experts agree that the most recent budget provisions in no way solve the problem of tax evasion by Canadian companies.

Does the minister not agree that it is absolutely indecent to ask ordinary citizens to pay more and more tax, even if it breaks them, while conventions which he maintains with countries considered by the Auditor General to be tax havens cost the Canadian government hundreds of millions of dollars in tax evasion?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, again, as the hon. member knows, in our Budget, we largely followed the Auditor General's recommendations. As for tax havens, we eliminated most of them, but some remain. We live in an interdependent global economy; Canadian companies do business outside Canada and we do not want to put them in a position where they cannot compete with companies in other countries.

National Parole Board

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Solicitor General.

The Solicitor General has told this House that applicants for the National Parole Board are considered on the basis of merit. He went on to say that the final decision for these order in council appointments is in the hands of cabinet.

Can the Solicitor General explain how he and cabinet can possibly determine merit if the applicant has never even been interviewed?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the applicant's qualifications are a matter of record and often a matter of public knowledge. This record and this public knowledge are something that exist quite apart from any interview, no matter how lengthy that interview is. If we are looking for competence and merit, we want to look at a person's record of achievements, a person's training and a person's qualifications. That is what counts. An interview may be useful but that cannot outweigh these other factors.

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as I suggested in this House on Monday, Standing Order 110 provides a mechanism whereby nominees can be scrutinized by a parliamentary committee before a final decision is made by cabinet. The current system of making the appointment and then bringing the person before committee does not allow members of Parliament meaningful input.

I repeat my request. Will the Solicitor General forward all nominations to the National Parole Board to the standing committee on justice for review before any final appointment is made?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I said that I would take the hon. member's suggestion aboard, but I want to point out to him that the rules in this regard make this a matter of discretion, an optional matter for the minister. The word in the rules is "may".

The hon. member may want to reflect on his question because some of the people who submit application for appointments may not want it to be made public in terms of the impact on their existing employment and there are similar factors.

I suggest that the hon. member should bear in mind that it is our commitment, as we have been doing, to appoint people on the basis of merit and competence. We are prepared to submit our judgments which we are authorized to make by this Parliament to the test of this House and the public.

Telecommunications

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in spite of the Supreme Court decision, Quebec intends to maintain its Régie des télécommunications and is asking the federal government to delegate appropriate regulatory powers to the province. Speaking on that issue, the Quebec Minister of Communications said that the current situation clearly illustrates the inadequacy of the Canadian constitutional framework as regards communications.

My question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Does the federal government intend to legislate and delegate the powers of the CRTC to Quebec's Régie des télécommunications, as requested by the Quebec Minister of Communications?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I already indicated, we have no problem consulting with Quebec to see if some responsibilities in the communications sector could be delegated to that province. Our approach will not be based on jurisdiction, even though the Supreme Court clearly indicated, as did Quebec's Superior Court and Court of Appeal before it, that communications come under exclusive federal jurisdiction.

Under the circumstances, our approach is based on the principle of efficiency; in other words, it is a matter of determining who can provide the most efficient service. We will thoroughly review the decision, get the advice of our experts and negotiate with Mrs. Frulla-Hébert. Also, we will be particularly careful not to create overlapping in a field which comes under exclusive federal jurisdiction.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does that mean that the minister intend to rely on the fact that communications are under federal jurisdiction to negotiate only minor details of no consequence with Quebec, when he is fully aware that what is at stake here is Quebec's cultural development as a whole?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I just indicated, on the contrary, our decision will not be based on the fact that we have exclusive jurisdiction. Rather, we will consult with Quebec and make a decision based on efficiency. In other words, we will go for the sharing of responsibilities which best serves the interests of Quebecers and Canadians.

Parole

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice and is inspired by Helen Leadley, a constituent of Calgary Southeast.

Robert Paul Thompson stabbed to death the daughter of a constituent of Calgary Southeast. He also stabbed and beat her friend. He plea bargained to second degree murder and is serving a life sentence. While in prison he took a nurse hostage and stabbed two guards. He continues to be a violent offender, harassing the victims' families. He is eligible for parole in 1995.

Can the minister guarantee that in his review of the parole system he will implement the necessary changes to ensure that killers like these who continue to threaten the families of their victims stay in jail and off our streets?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, one of the efforts in which we are engaged at present is to deal with high risk offenders who give reason for concern about the safety of the community upon the completion of their jail term or their terms of imprisonment.

In that connection I raised with the territorial and provincial ministers of justice and attorneys general in March when I met with them the approach which we said we would take during the election campaign which is to ask the provinces to work with us to amend where necessary the provincial mental health legislation to permit assessments of such persons in the prisons and then involuntary detention under mental health legislation at the end of their criminal sentences so that they can either be treated or detained as required for purposes of public safety.

I am happy to report that I have had constructive co-operation and expressions of support from my colleagues in the provinces and territories. I hope the day is not far away when the legislative base will be present for us to treat the kinds of persons to which reference has been made-and I should say I am not speaking in reference to that particular case but generally about offenders-who create a risk so that we can deal with high risk offenders in a way that will protect the community.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the minister's answer, Thompson was out of jail on a day pass when he committed murder.

I ask specifically, will the minister guarantee that in his proposed changes to the criminal justice system he will protect innocent victims of crimes like these, those who are left behind, those who are being stalked by convicted killers, by tightening up the eligibility criteria for the granting of day passes and denying them parole or is it going to be continuing the parole as usual?