Debates of May 12th, 1994

Supply

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. member's question. It is not a matter of defending the Young Offenders Act as it now stands, but rather of amending it and improving it. There are problems in this country today and we must deal with them. As was mentioned, gangs of youths are terrorizing other young people in primary schools, high schools and CEGEPs, and they must be brought into line. The answer, however, is not simply to drag them into court and sentence them. I am a bigger believer in social reintegration with the help of psychologists, doctors and experts. If we do nothing but send young offenders to jail, we will end up with hardened criminals on our hands.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, for once this House cannot be said to lack consistency; it has shown great singleness of purpose. About ten days ago, the hon. member for York South-Weston, a government member, introduced Bill C-217, a public bill to lower age limits for the

purposes of the Young Offenders Act, to increase maximum penalties and allow the publication of the names of young offenders.

Today, the opposition motion moved by a Reform Party member from British Columbia calls upon the House to urge the government to respond to the evident-as far as they are concerned-lack of confidence over the Young Offenders Act by recommending a change to the definition of "young offender" in Section 2(1) of the said Act to mean a person to be ten years of age or more, but sixteen years of age or less.

Again, we are falling back on lowering the minimum age. I say it is somewhat similar to what Bill C-217 called for because, as indicated earlier in this debate, lowering the age to 16 does not change the rigour of the act. They said: "We simply lowered the age limits" but the fact of the matter is that lowering the maximum age of young offenders to 16 means that those between the ages of 16 and 18 who will be tried by adult courts will incur adult sentencing. That is where the change will hurt, in terms of sentencing.

Why? Why an approach reflecting such intolerance, an intolerance that seems to come mainly from English Canada but which unfortunately is echoed in this House? As I said earlier, by dint of being alarmists, you end up colouring facts. Some members have been crying wolf for so long that they are seeing its tail. Let us stop telling ourselves horror stories and face facts. The sad reality is that delinquency is probably here to stay. We will always need legislation to crack down on actions society considers as unacceptable but in a civilized state legislation must also seek to have a positive effect.

In the young offenders' case, we need an act that will not turn this young offender into an old one and this, for the rest of his or her life because such is the wish of an intolerant society. A modern state must search for the causes of this criminal behaviour and if possible, try to eradicate them from the young offender's heart. Could we not do this in a non-partisan way, without shaping the entire act around a senseless murder, focusing instead on striking a balance between punishment, in the form of the sentence, and rehabilitation, that is to say the young delinquent or offender's social reintegration?

To do so, we must look at the statistics, which mirror reality back to us. We must not settle for the headlines on the front page of sensationalistic papers or their legal columns. I believe that this feeling of insecurity is magnified by the information widely disseminated by the press. Reassuring statistics are seldom published. But statistics can be reassuring and indeed they are, particularly in Quebec.

According to a study by Jean Trépanier, criminology professor at the University of Montreal, only one out of six offenders is a minor. That is a far cry from the 50 per cent suggested by today's debate and the emphasis on amending the Young Offenders Act.

According to the study, juvenile crime even fell to about 8 per cent in Quebec in the last 15 years, and even in Montreal there was a substantial decline over the same period. The number of young offenders in Montreal went from 10,145 in 1979 to 6,679 last year. I will be honest with the members of this House and say that what is a problem is that the proportion of crimes against persons committed by young people, which are more visible and get more media coverage, climbed significantly during the same period.

Despite the higher figures, the number of crimes against persons committed by young people is still small in absolute terms. That is why I think that the motion presented today by the Reform Party is wrong. The perception in Quebec is quite different. What do we do differently for young offenders in Quebec so that our perception of this problem is apparently different from that of the other provinces?

In Quebec when a youth commits an offence, his case is immediately taken over by social services and not by the judicial system. We immediately and completely de-criminalize the legal process. It is important to remember this because Quebec seems to be the only place in Canada where young offenders are looked after by social services from the beginning of the legal process to the sentences handed down by the courts.

Quebec has a list of offences. When a crime is not on this list, it is up to the police to decide whether or not charges should be laid. If the offence is listed, law-enforcement authorities must refer the case to the judicial system by lodging a complaint against the young offender. The youth protection director then becomes responsible for the minor. As I told you, if I am not mistaken, only Quebec does things this way.

In Quebec, and this may surprise some people, the maximum sentence is three years plus two years on parole. Having studied the problem of young offenders, I can tell you that even in Canada the majority of juvenile crime workers recognize that Quebec does things differently. And this distinctiveness is felt in the way it treats its young offenders.

With the Young Offenders Act in effect and the whole system serving young offenders in Quebec, things are working out quite well. I think that the figures are encouraging. One only has to look at the report to be convinced-

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but he can continue later. A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands.

Committees Of The House

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, with the unanimous consent of the House, I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), concerning forestry practice in Canada and clear-cutting, the House authorize the Standing Committee on Natural Resources to travel from May 23 to 26, 1994, to British Columbia and Alberta and in Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick on May 30 and 31, 1994, and that the necessary staff do accompany the Committee.

(Motion agreed to.)

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, again with unanimous consent of the House, I ask leave to revert to the presentation of reports by standing and special committees for the purpose of tabling in the House the 21st report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership of committees.

I would ask to dispense with the reading of the report.

It deals with substituting Mr. Leblanc for Mrs. Debien on the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

[The Speaker]

Does the hon. parliamentary secretary have the unanimous consent of the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would move that the 21st report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to the House earlier this day, be concurred in.

[The Speaker]

Does the hon. parliamentary secretary have unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

No.

[The Speaker]

It being two o'clock, pursuant to Standing Order 30(5) the House will now proceed to Statements by Members pursuant to Standing Order 31.

Canadian Products

[Morris Bodnar, Liberal, Saskatoon—Dundurn, SK]

Mr. Speaker, many of us heard reports a few weeks ago that the coconut oil used by movie theatres was not as healthy as originally thought.

Last week American movie chains decided to switch from coconut oil to a healthier Canadian canola oil. Cineplex Odeon, a Canadian company, declined to make this switch preferring to wait and study the matter further. This answer is not good enough. A Canadian company should be supporting healthier Canadian products before it supports inferior foreign products.

However this seems to be the rule in Canada rather than the exception. We have seen this problem before involving Canadian wines and innumerable other Canadian products. When will we start buying superior Canadian products and putting Canada's unemployed back to work?

International Nurses' Day

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud today, May 12, International Nurses' Day, to pay tribute to the 264,000 nurses in Canada and especially the 65,000 nurses in Quebec. More than ever, these professionals of whom a lot is asked deserve recognition for the outstanding quality of service they give the public.

Today's theme is "nurses make all the difference". I thank these men and women whom I know well, from having been around them for a long time, for their contribution and their faithfulness. Their skill and their ability to listen are what make our health services as good as they are.

As we recognize this fact, we recognize the essential contribution of nurses to maintaining the basic values of our society.

Young Offenders Act

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, a 44-year old forestry worker and family man lies in critical condition in hospital today because a group of teenagers split his

skull with an axe Saturday night. The wife of the victim said he had hollered at the teenagers for running a stop sign the previous day.

The government suggests that poverty and unemployment are to blame for youth crime. If poverty and unemployment were to blame, why was there no noticeable increase in crime during the dirty thirties? Why does Newfoundland, with Canada's highest rate of unemployment, nevertheless have the lowest rate of crime?

This assault took place in the beautiful orchard growing community of Oyama, B.C., with a population of less than 1,000, no inner city, no slums, no gangs. The students at George Elliott High School are organizing a car wash to raise cash for the victim's family. This demonstrates that they are responsible young adults.

When will the government shoulder its responsibility by reforming the Young Offenders Act?

International Day Of Families

[Jesse Flis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the United Nations recently decided that beginning in 1994, May 15 of each year shall be observed as the International Day of Families.

In spite of the hectic pace of the 1990s, the importance of family must not be taken for granted nor underestimated. It is the family unit which passes on culture and tradition from one generation to another. It is the family which provides the primary source of caring and nurturing for our children. Indeed our future survival depends on the family.

The Canada Committee for the International Year of the Family feels that we must support our families in order to maintain a compassionate, productive and tolerant society.

We must resist the forces that threaten to tear our families apart. Instead we must embrace the family ties that make Canada a strong nation.

This Sunday it is worth reminding ourselves that despite all our differences we have family ties that bind us locally, nationally and globally.

Technology Triangle

[John English, Liberal, Kitchener, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the cities of Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and Guelph, known as Canada's Technology Triangle, had the honour yesterday to host the federal Minister of Industry.

During his visit the minister announced a new government program to help the economy's engine of growth, small business. As a result of an ongoing dialogue with this sector, the minister announced a $50 million program providing financing in addition to bank loans.

It is appropriate that the minister should discuss small and medium sized business in Canada's Technology Triangle since this area is one of the country's success stories in the new knowledge based economy in which this sector is key.

I join with the members for Cambridge, Guelph and Waterloo in thanking the minister for his recognition of the needs of small and medium sized business.

National Police Week

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, next week, May 15 to 21, is National Police Week. Police Week was started in 1970 by the Canadian police community to increase knowledge of the police in Canada and to stress the need for co-operation between the community and the police.

National Police Week is an occasion for all Canadians to recognize the professionalism, personal sacrifice and dedication shown by members of Canada's many police services in carrying out their duties.

As police services continue to adapt to new demands in our society, all of us within this partnership will have to work together more than ever if we wish to fight crime in the most effective and efficient manner.

We in government recognize the dedication and pledge our continued support for the work they do. I invite all Canadians to join us in saluting our fine police men and women.

Haiti

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, another dramatic turn of events in the Haitian tragedy took place in Port-au-Prince yesterday. A few days before the May 21 deadline set by the UN Security Council for the military dictators to leave power, they appointed a puppet president as head of state instead.

The Bloc Quebecois protests and vehemently condemns this masquerade. The Canadian government must stop waffling on the Haitian issue. Has Canada obtained all the assurances it wanted from the Dominican Republic that that country will respect the total embargo and how much longer must we wait for Canada to take a clear and unequivocal position? Canada must stand ready to intervene, in co-operation with the international comunity, to end what is going on in Haiti once and for all.

Nursing

[Margaret Bridgman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, today I join my colleague from the Bloc to pay tribute to nurses on this International Nurses Day in National Nursing Week.

Since the days of Florence Nightingale the nursing profession has improved upon the knowledge base and standards of bedside nursing as well as expanding the nursing practices and principles into health care areas such as research, education, counselling and administration.

Nurses are the backbone of health care by participating in nearly all aspects of health and providing service seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Nurses continue to meet the challenge of providing their services with less funding. They extend the extra effort needed to help maintain the excellent nursing service standards we enjoy.

Let us on this occasion not only recognize the invaluable work of nurses but also pledge to take the necessary steps to solidify financing of health care in Canada.

International Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, May 12, 1994, is International Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day, a disease better known as chronic fatigue syndrome. This terrible disease generates more and more interest because of the professional, social and emotional problems it causes to its victims, and also because of the enormous related costs to society. This syndrome is very difficult to define. Indeed, there is no definite criteria to diagnose this condition.

Researchers have concluded that it may be caused by various agents associated with several diseases.

Whatever the future holds, we do hope that research will find a physiological explanation for the chronic fatigue syndrome.

Small Businesses

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma, ON]

Mr. Speaker, all Canadians should know that the small business sector in Canada is responsible for the creation of well over 80 per cent of all new jobs. Clearly the renewal of our economy depends on strong and vibrant small businesses.

Our government has recognized this fact and is working toward a stable climate so small business can grow and thrive. We will achieve this by improving the Small Businesses Loans Act, working with the banks to make capital more accessible, and lowering payroll taxes. Further we will reduce the burden of government red tape that chokes small business growth. After all government must work in partnership with the business community, not pretend to be its master.

Small business owners in my riding have often told me they are anxious for the day when the onerous bureaucratic load imposed on them by government is a thing of the past. For example, the government remains committed to the goal of replacing the GST with one that is more efficient and fair, easier to administer, and much more convenient for small business. The government takes its commitments seriously and will fulfil its promises.

Railways

[Paul Devillers, Liberal, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Canada needs a comprehensive railway strategy that ensures the country is well served into the future.

Railways make a positive contribution to our country's economic development. It is important to recognize that main lines and branch lines serving Canadian communities are essential to our economic infrastructure. Several thousand jobs depend on railway transportation, and many others could be created if the government adopts a proactive approach in that sector.

Recently CN indicated that it wishes to abandon yet another line servicing industry in Simcoe North as it has done in many areas of eastern Canada. Every short line closing represents lost jobs and lost potential.

On behalf of all Canadians I ask that the government lead the campaign to keep our important rail infrastructure intact.

Rail Transport

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, thanks to the initiative of the Rural Dignity and Ralliement gaspésien organizations, hearings are currently being held in Bonaventure and Gaspé regarding the maintenance of the railway service.

Several groups and individuals expressed their views and supported the idea of maintaining the Chaleur, the only passen-

ger train still in operation in the Gaspe Peninsula and a vital tool for the region's economic development.

Given the fact that the Liberal Party is not represented at these hearings, I want to draw to the attention of the Minister of Transport the legitimate concerns expressed by residents of that region. Will the minister pledge to hold official public hearings on this issue, as recommended in the Liberal Party's report on the future of the transportation sector in the Gaspe Peninsula?

National Revenue

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Mr. Speaker, from the inception of the GST, Joe Arling's motel in Swift Current, Saskatchewan, has remitted payments as instructed in Revenue Canada's guide which states that lodging rentals for periods exceeding 30 days are GST exempt.

An auditor has now informed Mr. Arling that the exemption only applies if more than 90 per cent of the rooms are rented long term. This is not in the guide and only recently became known to Revenue Canada staff, let alone to taxpayers.

Revenue bureaucrats acknowledge that Mr. Arling tried to be compliant but maintain the ignorance of the law, even when agents of the crown provide misinformation, is no excuse. They will not consider a negotiated settlement and are determined to play hardball at any cost to the department and to my constituent.

Businessmen who do their best to serve as unpaid tax collectors do not deserve shabby treatment by unyielding bureaucrats.

This case was brought to the attention of the Minister of National Revenue two months ago, and I am still awaiting a response.