House of Commons Hansard #97 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.

Topics

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his very salient question. We cannot have one rule for one and a different rule for everybody else. Then we would be hypocrites. We must have one rule for everyone.

It is interesting we use the term grants which presupposes that it is our money. If I have $10 and I want to give it to one of my kids, that is a grant; but if I am taking somebody else's money and giving it to someone else, that is a loan.

I will answer the member's question directly. I think we should have a flat tax, yes. Without question we cannot have one set of rules, for example, on depletion allowances and all the rest of it. Income earned is income earned and we pay tax on it. Tax points and tax credits are exactly the same as cash that does not come in.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Dennis Mills Liberal Broadview—Greenwood, ON

You would abolish all tax credits.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Every one of them.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

An hon. member

Right after you gave back the $70 billion you took under the NEP.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, since this amendment was proposed by the opposition, I would like to know, for the benefit of the Official Opposition, what the hon. member for Edmonton means by the terms "each province" and by the word "regional". What do these two terms mean to him?

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, as I understand the principle of the amendment, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. We are talking about the country as a whole, not just about Quebec. If it makes sense for Quebec it makes sense for everyone.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Morris Bodnar Liberal Saskatoon—Dundurn, SK

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's speech was very eloquent and very interesting. He indicated the requirement that all grants be reduced or eliminated to all businesses, et cetera. If all such moneys are eliminated I take it there would be an elimination of moneys and benefits to everyone, not just corporations across the board.

Could the hon. member indicate whether the elimination of benefits to corporations are any different from the elimination of tax benefits such as RRSPs to individuals?

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Yes, of course they are. They are entirely different. When we talk about eliminating grants to businesses which artificially change the marketplace and allow the government in its wisdom or lack thereof to pick winners and losers, it is entirely different from our fiduciary responsibility as citizens to look after those who are not able to look after themselves. We are talking about individuals who need help, not corporations that want help.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Bertrand Liberal Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member for Edmonton Southwest. Given his proposal, how does he intend to reestab-

lish a balance between rich areas and underprivileged areas with high unemployment if the government does not do anything?

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, if the solution implied in my hon. colleague's question is that regional economic expansion is key to preventing and eliminating regional disparity in the country or in any other country, for that matter, I would send the question back by saying that we have been sending scads of money to depressed areas of the country for years. Has it changed anything? I submit it has not.

I would also submit there is a situation that parallels the one we are talking about between the northern and the southern states of the United States.

The fastest growing economic area in North America today is the southern states. For years they were depressed. Gradually over time their economies were such that their labour rates and the cost of housing were lower. They had a highly motivated workforce and businesses started to invest in that area. Now it is booming.

If trying to eliminate disparities in Canada by taking money from a wealthier area and transmitting it through business to a less favoured area works, we would not have a problem today. However we do. The statistics quoted by my hon. colleague from Yellowhead indicated that nothing has changed after years of sending money to these various areas through ACOA, FORD-Q, DREE and all such things.

We are in exactly the same situation except we are in the hole by $500 billion. Even if we wanted to, we cannot afford it any more. We are creating and perpetuating dependency. We have to look for new solutions.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine Québec

Liberal

Patrick Gagnon LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General

Mr. Speaker, I join many of my colleagues on this side of the House in supporting the establishment of a Department of Industry and I hope that this support will be unanimous. This new department will give Canada and Canadians the new tools they need to help them create jobs and build a more secure future.

However, before we go any further, I think that we have to take into consideration the history of our country. We can always think of the first settlers who were supported by the church or by people who were put there to help them develop an area-in my case it was the Gaspé Peninsula-and that is how Quebec and Canada were built.

There is always some degree of co-operation between the various elements of our society in any area, whether it be industry, education or, of course, the public service. But since then, since the 17th and 18th centuries, there was Confederation in 1867 and the National Policy was established under Sir John A. Macdonald. It was a very ambitious plan. It all started with the construction of the railway better known today as CN and VIA Rail. This great project to link our country from east to west did not go unnoticed in other parts of the world.

It was undertaken to give some impetus to the Canadian economy, but it could not have been done without the support of governments, without money being spent on the construction of this trans-Canada railway. Indeed, if we look at the debates held in 1867 in this House, we will see that there have always been critics of this avant-garde vision of the federal government at that time. But by developing the railway, that government believed that it was giving itself the means to develop this country. The resources were developed afterwards; then, thanks to the railway, Western Canada was populated, as well as Ontario and part of Quebec. Links were made between these new provinces, and this marked the beginning of the Canadian federation.

This is a primary example of a massive intervention by the federal government, but in consultation and co-operation with business interests and also with provincial governments.

Then came the first world war. Once again we found some unanimity, a will to fight for our rights, for our country, but still in a spirit of generalized co-operation. The same thing happened at the time of the Second World War when, over a period of five or six years, our industry, with government support, went from a third-rate position to making Canada the third or fourth greatest economic power of the time.

As you know, before 1945, before the war, over 45 per cent of the Canadian population was rural. After the war years, Canada became an industrial power. We went through an urbanization phase with people leaving rural areas to settle in the city. After the war and initiatives like the Victory Loan Bonds to raise money, the government took the same approach. After six years of substantial interest rates, Canadians were able to invest in their country's own economy because they had faith in it. They bought into Canada.

In 1945, 1946, and 1947, we were in a position to implement a demilitarization policy to foster an economy based on consumer spending. We became a consumer society, but that did not happen without the help, involvement and commitment of the federal government.

My colleague opposite mentioned C. D. Howe, who master-minded Canadian industrial development in those years, and Walter Gordon. They were men of vision who laid the foundation of the Canadian society as we know it. Those developments should be seen in their historical context so we can better

explain the goal of the present government in revitalizing the Canadian industry as we enter the next century.

The 1950s came. You know that those years are often called the dark ages in Quebec. The province was ruled by the Union nationale, under Duplessis. Quebec was undergoing changes, but changes similar to those outside Canada.

We then had the Quiet Revolution which, obviously, met many Quebecers' aspirations. We should never forget that the Quiet Revolution took place under a Liberal government, within the Canadian context and the Canadian federation. We were able to show Quebecers that federalism is a flexible and generous system which fulfils the deep-rooted aspirations of all Canadians.

During the 1960s, new schools were built. University education was popularized and made accessible to all Quebecers. Of course, we must not forget that education-as is the case today-was financed in large part by the federal government. Never did the federal government dare intervene in this quiet revolution, never did the federal government dare hinder the material progress, the economic progress of all Quebecers. This fact must be recognized.

In the late 1960s, more specifically in 1966, the people elected another Union Nationale government which claimed that the premier of the day, Jean Lesage, went too fast for Quebec. We must not forget either that Jean Lesage served as a minister in the federal government in the 1950s. Surely, he must have borrowed some ideas and solutions from his colleagues from Ontario and the Maritimes. I believe we must recognize-and I think that many researchers and specialists interested in Jean Lesage do recognize-that Jean Lesage's tenure in Ottawa served him well in developing Quebec as we know it today.

That being said, more progress was made in the 1970s. In those days, we believed more and more in the welfare state. It is not a concept exclusive to Quebec or Canada, but a concept also known in Germany, Scandinavia, France and even England. The purpose of the welfare state is to make sure that everybody's interests, not only the interests of financiers, or people from Montreal and Quebec City, are taken into account.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order please. We are supposed to be talking to Bill C-46, the Act to establish the Department of Industry, tabled pursuant to decisions made in 91-92 by Mrs. Campbell, former Prime Minister of Canada.

Instead we are being given a history lecture which goes back to the Jesuits, the Quiet Revolution and the Plains of Abraham. We will talk about that during the upcoming referendum campaign. Then we will give classes in Canadian history. But for now, we should be talking about this Department of Industry Act and the member for Bonaventure-îles-de-la-Madeleine is completely off the subject.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I want to thank the member. He is right, according to Standing Orders, comments should be related to the matter at hand. As the member, I fail to see the relevance of the comments. However, since my nomination here, I have noticed that few people abide by that rule.

Therefore, the parliamentary secretary has the floor once again.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Patrick Gagnon Liberal Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC

As a Quebecer, as a younger member, Mr. Speaker-

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If he wants to go on with the lecture, I hope the member for Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine will not forget the October Crisis.

Department Of Industry ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Patrick Gagnon Liberal Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to deal with that issue. I find it unfortunate that we often have weird-minded historians. In order to understand today's society-and I challenge the Bloc Quebecois on this-we must fully understand its history, we must be very clear on our intentions to explain history, because it is through history that we can explain to the people the situation as we know it today. Nobody can disagree with me on some historical issues that I have raised, and I want to say this to you: Ask Europeans, Asians, Americans, and they will all tell you that Canada is a resounding success.

French Canadians were able to overcome their difficulties when they first arrived in New France and established their own community. These French Canadians became part of the larger Canadian family, thanks to newcomers, Eastern Europeans, English-speaking people, even people from the United States, from Europe, Asian people who are coming to this country, because they are well aware that Canada is a country of freedom, of progress, a good place to live.

That is why I demand that we take into account the historical value of industry, but also the history of Canada, which somewhat explains this bill and the objective of this government.

Of course, industry is important. We are entering the 21st century and I believe that we must prepare ourselves accordingly. But instead of telling you about history, I will tell you about global reality. I know that it is an issue which deeply concerns members of the opposition parties.

The Prime Minister of Canada is setting up Team Canada. We had a hockey team called Team Canada and we were very successful. Now, we are going to have an industrial and economic Team Canada whose mandate will be to create new markets for all Canadians. Besides, as you know, we even asked the newly elected Premier of Quebec, Mr. Parizeau, to be part of the team, because what we are trying to do is make sure we get the contracts and ensure sustainable economic development for all Canadians. This is what we must kept in mind.

Again, why China, why go to China, why are Canadians so welcome in China? I want to know. I bet that some of you never heard of Dr. Bethune, a Montrealer, a Quebecer who did a lot for China during the 1949 revolution. It is because we have built ties with that country as with others.

By creating this department, we are saying that there are changes, that we are increasingly recognizing that 80 percent of the jobs today are created by small businesses. We know that we have invested in megaprojects in the past, at both the federal and provincial levels. This was a joint endeavour. Quebec invested in James Bay. In Montreal, there were substantial municipal investments in the Metro. There were also large investments in regional economic development, but I will come back to that.

We must recognize that industrial development requires close co-operation between governments and companies in order to make Canadians more competitive on the eve of the 21st century. As you know, Canadians, Quebecers, the Western World in general, are faced with extremely strong, well organized competition. Look at the seven small tigers. Who had heard of Singapore ten years ago? Who would have thought twenty years ago that South Korea would rise to the point it is now? Who talked about Taiwan? Who would have imagined China as a competitor? Who could have predicted the fall of the Berlin wall?

We have lived through tremendous changes these past few years. Free enterprise won over the tyrannic powers of the world without a fight. Changes are occurring and I believe that this reorganization of Industry Canada will take them into account. Although the opposition was saying that we were still in the 1960s, I believe they are sticking to a nationalistic view which, in my opinion, does not represent the real aspirations of Quebecers and Canadians who want jobs.

With the new Department of Industry and the help of new technologies, we will be able to steer small businesses towards new markets. Our advantage is that Canada is a well-known entity. When you go to your banker to ask for a loan, he wants to know your past history, he wants to know if you have a good credit rating. Do you have any business experience? Do you have any experience in your present field of endeavour? Do you have resources-In any case, I am grateful to the members of the opposition for talking a little bit about the natural resources of this country. It is important for investors, it is important to realize that Canada possesses not only natural resources but also a qualified population to meet challenges.

The basic role of Industry Canada is to bring together those various participants of the federal government and to improve planning.

As you know-I realize, Mr. Speaker, that I only have one minute left although I could have spoken for half an hour-history is important in order to better explain to the opposition and enlighten it on the real issues that all Canadians expect to come to the fore: job creation, close co-operation, and not the upheaval or modification of a well-known system.

There will be a referendum in Quebec and I can assure you federalism will not be put on trial. It will be our task to explain to you, loud and clear, the essence of federalism as we all know it today.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Department Of Industry ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Bloc

Osvaldo Nunez Bloc Bourassa, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have often mentioned in the House the dramatic situation in Rwanda. Among other things I asked the government to help the thousands of Rwandan refugees. On June 13, I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration a question concerning the case of Léon Mugesera, a Rwandan national who came to Canada in 1993 and who some believe is responsible for slaughters that have taken place in Rwanda. The Quebec association of Rwandan immigrants has made very serious allegations to this effect.

The parliamentary secretary told me that Immigration Canada was conducting an investigation into this case. I hope the investigation results will be made public today.

The situation is still extremely difficult in Rwanda. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees has denounced the massacres perpetrated by the Rwandan Patriotic Army. These massacres have resulted in the deaths and maimings of thousands of Rwandans. The refugee camps in Ngara, Tanzania are full of Rwandans. Half a million Rwandans have been massacred. Over two million Rwandans are refugees in Zaire, Uganda and Burundi. Unfortunately the genocide of the Rwandan people is not yet over. Many relatives of the victims live in Canada.

Through humanitarian action Canada has tried to do its part. However concerning the level of acceptance of Rwandan refugees into Canada, the actions of the Canadian government are still very insufficient. Only 96 refugee status claims have been referred between January 1 and June 30, 1994 of which the majority, 63, have been in Quebec. However the majority of the accepted cases were students who had already been in Canada.

There is no special program to receive Rwandan refugees, as was the case for the former Yugoslavia and for other countries. Our country must be more generous with regard to the Rwandan victims and those being persecuted. A lot of criticism has been expressed regarding the embassy at Nairobi; many Rwandan refugees are not even able to put forward a visa application there.

I wish to thank the Canadian NGOs for their excellent job in helping the people of Rwanda, including the following organizations from Quebec: YMCA, Oxfam Québec, Catholic Organization for Development and Peace, as well as several religious communities, particularly the Jesuits. I also want to underline the great job done by the four organizations-Proveda, Oxfam, CECI and Amitié Rwanda-Canada-which created Urgence Canada-Rwanda and contributed generously to the more than four million dollars in humanitarian aid collected in Québec.

Development and Peace alone already collected $1,800,000 to finance emergency relief programs. From now on, the government of Canada, particularly through CIDA, and the NGOs should direct their efforts to encouraging the safe return of the refugees who presently live in inhumane conditions in neighbouring countries. They should encourage national reconciliation programs in Rwanda and give strong support to the democratization process in that country devastated by civil war.

I want to reiterate my solidarity with the people and the victims of the tragedy in Rwanda.

Department Of Industry ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Halifax Nova Scotia

Liberal

Mary Clancy LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Citizenship and Immigration

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his comments and give a very brief response, as the member's statement did not relate specifically to the question he had asked at the time.

As we all know, the situation in Rwanda has been in turmoil for months. The world watched horrified as thousands were butchered, most of them Tutsis targeted by Hutu rivals. Now there are reports of Hutus being tracked down by vengeful Tutsis. In such a situation it is obviously very, very difficult to operate under the normal conditions of the immigration and refugee process. There is no question that Canada is deeply concerned.

The hon. member asks us to see the peaceful relocation or return to their homes of those who are in neighbouring countries. That may or may not as yet be possible because of the turmoil and difficulties. As he says, a great many of the refugees or those who would be refugees to Canada are not able to get to the Canadian offices in Zaire or neighbouring countries. There is the problem that there are dangers for Canadian personnel as well.

The situation is extremely tumultuous. The minister and the government are looking at it very closely. We are very aware of our humanitarian duties and will carry them out as best we can.

Department Of Industry ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Pursuant to Standing Order 38(5), the motion to adjourn is now deemed to have been adopted. This House stand adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6.36 p.m.)