Debates of Sept. 26th, 1994

Reform Of Social Programs

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, I realize that these documents, whose existence was alleged and reported by the CBC, are not official documents, but I think the public is starting to question the government's intentions, considering that the newspapers have documents which are said to have been submitted to cabinet.

I want to ask the Prime Minister if, in its proposed reform, the government intends to oblige the unemployed to take training courses, in order to be eligible for benefits?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we will have an official document next week, and if the hon. member wishes to make the usual comments under the circumstances, he will have to wait until the document is released. A week from now he will get all the answers to the questions he is asking now.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, this document, whose existence is alleged by the CBC, exists. It is not a forgery. It is a document from a government source. So this document is disturbing, on the face of it, and I want to ask the government to tell us whether, as the document indicates, it intends to come down hard on women by making the income of the spouse an obstacle to their being eligible for their own benefits?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we will have an officially authorized document, not one obtained by a third party, at the beginning of next week, and the Leader of the Opposition will be able to make the usual comments at that time.

Haiti

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, one week after the intervention of American forces in Port-au-Prince, U.S. President Bill Clinton announced this morning before the UN General Assembly the immediate lifting of American trade sanctions against Haiti. President Clinton also urged other nations to do the same.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Will he tell us if Canada intends to lift its trade sanctions against Haiti today, as requested by the U.S. President?

[Christine Stewart, Liberal, Secretary of State (Latin America and Africa)]

Mr. Speaker, it is correct that President Clinton announced this morning that he would lift commercial flight sanctions as well as financial transactions that were imposed against Haiti as long as it did not apply to the military in Haiti.

Canada is willing to follow suit but first we want to see President Aristide's request for this which was made yesterday. It must be recognized that we cannot lift our own sanctions except by order in council.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary for the Prime Minister. Will he tell us when air connections between Canada and Haiti will be resumed?

[Christine Stewart, Liberal, Secretary of State (Latin America and Africa)]

Mr. Speaker, as I just stated, Canada is willing to look at lifting this particular sanction against Haiti but it will have to be pursued through an order in council. I expect that will be pursued as soon as possible.

Taxation

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister has refused to rule out new taxes on RRSPs. On Friday further alarm bells rang right across Canada when the Secretary of State for International Financial Institutions also refused to rule out taxes on private sector and public service pension plans.

It is time to clear the air, so I ask the Minister of Finance for clarification. Has he ruled out new taxes on private sector and public service pension plans?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, we have made it very clear that the essence of the consultation process requires debate with

Canadians as to the tradeoffs and as to the measures they eventually expect the government to take. It would be to preclude that process for me to engage in individual comment on any suggestion at this time.

We look forward to the contributions of the members of the Reform Party and the Bloc Quebecois throughout that process on the finance committee. Members of the Reform Party simply do not understand the importance of this initiative by the government.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, certainly we understand consultation but we must have something to consult about. That is why we are asking the government some questions; we are asking questions because we need some answers.

From the minister's reply we can only conclude-and it is the only conclusion we can draw-that the government is considering a tax rate not only on RRSPs but on company pension plans and public service pensions. Millions of Canadians count on them for their retirement.

Why is the minister contemplating punishing Canadians for the irresponsible spending of his government?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, we are not contemplating punishing Canadians. If there was irresponsible spending it was by the previous government. A great number of them were supported by members of the Reform Party.

We are about to embark upon the most comprehensive consultation process in terms of prebudget discussion that has ever been held. I do not understand why the members of the Reform Party are so anti-democratic that they fail to understand Canadians deserve to have their voices heard.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, no party worked harder to remove the previous administration because of its fiscal mismanagement than the Reform Party. No party will work harder to remove the Liberal government if it continues to spend $100 billion more than it takes in revenue in its term.

Canadians are concerned. They suspect the new pension plan taxes are somehow related to the long delayed social policy review.

Why is the minister contemplating robbing Peter to pay Paul, or should I say robbing Lloyd to pay Paul? Why is the government making Canadians more dependent on underfunded programs such as the old age security or the Canada pension plan by taking away their personal retirement savings?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, during Wednesday's question period the member for Calgary West stated that it was in the interest of his party and should be in the interest of the government to get the views of all Canadians on the unity of the country. He then went on to say: "I am surprised the Prime Minister does not want that".

I am surprised, indeed astonished, that the member does not want us to consult with Canadians on the economic future of our country.

1992 Referendum

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Quebec paid all the costs of the referendum on the Charlottetown Accord in that province and also absorbed 25 per cent of the costs related to that same referendum in the other Canadian provinces. Last Thursday, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs said to the media that the federal government owes nothing to Quebec, since he had no confirmation of an agreement between the Prime Minister and Premier of the time, Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Bourassa.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Will he tell us if he instructed his staff to check with former Prime Minister Mulroney whether such an agreement existed, as claimed by Mr. Bourassa?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, will the Prime Minister be kind enough to inform this House and all Quebecers of the results of this exercise, so that we know whether or not to expect payment of this $26-million debt owed to Quebec by the federal government?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not expect to have a definite answer for several days yet.

Salmon Fishery

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, returns of early Stuart sockeye plummeted this year to the disastrous lows of 1992.

A leaked DFO document clearly lays the blame on the government for mismanagement and on a severely reduced enforcement effort on the Fraser River.

Will the minister commit to an independent review of management and enforcement practices on the Fraser River before our stocks reach the disastrous levels of those on the east coast?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, absolutely.

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I understand that to mean an independent review.

As a result of the leaked document reliable sources within the department report that in an effort to cover up mismanagement on the Fraser River this year, reports are being shredded and departmental personnel are being moved and transferred.

Will the minister assure the House that the witch-hunt in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans will cease immediately and that no one will be penalized for releasing documents that will lead to the truth about the missing fish?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest we should be more concerned given that question with a sense of missing balance, fairness and reason in the House.

The fact of the matter is-

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

You don't know the answer.

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

My colleague from the Reform Party doing politics a new way interrupts my attempt to give a complete answer.

The fact of the matter is that DFO will be announcing a completely independent review of the circumstances regarding the situation with respect to sockeye on the Fraser River. The review will involve four individuals, none of whom is involved with DFO, all of whom are experts in their fields outside the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

All the facts will be out. The chips will fall where they may. The attempt at paranoia, smear and accusation launched today will fail.

Pension Plans

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

For the past year, the minister has been going after middle income earners and the poorest members of society to replenish the government's coffers. The odious cuts in the unemployment insurance program and age credit announced in the last budget are cases in point. The minister is relentless in his attacks and is now considering taxing pension plan contributions.

Can the Minister of Finance confirm whether or not he intends to tax pension plan contributions?