Mr. Speaker, I am very happy that the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs called me on relevance because I thought it was rather obvious. Here is a country, Canada, with 28 million people. This country may well rank sixth in the world in terms of per capita gross domestic product, given purchasing power parity. This is based on 1991 figures.
This country, this great country which is a member of the G-7 and the international jet set, sees fit to enter into trade relations with countries that I would not describe as small-I will not use this qualifier often used by our friends opposite, because it evokes little people and conveys the somewhat pejorative idea of being of minor importance-but rather as countries with not as large a population as Canada.
Latvia, for example, has a population of 2.6 million; Estonia, 1.5 million; Trinidad and Tobago, 1.3 million; and Hungary, 10 million. While these countries do not have the economic prestige and stature of Canada, as it stands and as our friends opposite see it, Canada has negotiated tax treaties with them based on the OECD model. This is normal. Earlier, the spokesperson for the opposition said: this is normal; this is the way things are done between civilized countries of the world, that is those countries which look after their best interest.
We did not see or hear anything from Latvia, Hungary, Trinidad and Tobago to the effect that Canada is too big, that its economy is too strong, or that it will impose unacceptable conditions to those countries.
I do not know for sure, since we do not have newspaper articles from Latvia, Hungary, Trinidad and Tobago, and all the other countries, but we do not feel that Canada acted improperly with sovereign nations.
The point which I am making is that, right now, English language newspapers in Canada are constantly saying: "If Quebec becomes a sovereign nation, Canada will not deal with it because Canada is twice as big as Quebec. You will not count at all on the North American market. You will probably not be able to trade any more. Americans will probably stop buying your aluminum or your paper, and you will stop buying their cars, their refrigerators and IBM computers. You will have to go down on your knees and pay twice the price, because the United States is too big. Americans will not comply with international standards; they will try to crush you".
When I look at the bill before us this morning, I realize that this will not be the case. We are talking about Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Trinidad and Tobago. We are talking about countries which do not have close relations with Canada, which have not been part of Canada for 130 years; there is no problem with these countries. Canada does some trading and has good diplomatic relations with these countries, and there is no problem when the time comes to sign conventions.
However, when they are talking about Quebec, which has been part of Canada for 130 years, they kowtow to the U.S. They seek a statement from the U.S. secretary of state, in the hope that he will say: "Should Quebec become sovereign, we may decide to renegotiate NAFTA, we may impose additional conditions; your cultural industry may be crushed; American movies will flood the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean market, which is 98 per cent French. Movie theatres showing French language movies will close; French language newspapers will have to be highly subsidized and may even have to stop publishing. It will be the end of the world".
When you see bills such as this one, which is described by the government's spokesperson as being the normal thing to do, without any problem, you tell yourself: "Indeed, there is no problem signing commercial treaties with Latvia, Hungary or any other country. Why then should there be problems if Quebec becomes a sovereign nation"?
I think it might be worthwhile to use some examples. If they had said "We will make an exception for Latvia and Estonia, because
they were part of the soviet block for a long time, because they lived through difficulties, because they are small countries which valiantly defended their sovereignty, which survived the soviet empire's steamroller, which maintained their language, which maintained their cultural identity, which defended themselves, and which succeeded against all odds in becoming sovereign as soon as the soviet empire loosened its hold slightly. If they have succeeded in doing so, it might then have been said that we Canadians, rightfully considered the boy scouts of the world, are prepared to defend widows and orphans everywhere in the world."
As soon as Estonia and Latvia were free of the Soviet Union, the first thing they did was to demand sovereignty and seek recognition. We could have said "We will give Estonia and Latvia special treatment, we will help them, we will support them because this is an acknowledgment of their contribution to the world balance of democracy." But no. We echo what the spokesman for the opposition said just now: "It is a matter of interest. We have investments over there; they probably have some here. We sign. No problem. A matter of interest. Not a matter of politics. Not a matter of feelings. Not a matter of anything at all. Not of acknowledging countries which have succeeded in gaining sovereignty, which have lived through 50 years of communism and the Russian steamroller. Which have survived all that. No, just a matter of interest. Well, all right then.
Take the example of Hungary. We know what happened in Hungary in the 1950s, an attempted revolt against the Soviet empire. The Hungarians were crushed. Canada took many of them in, to its credit. Although I was very young at the time, I remember it because it made a strong impression upon me. But the bill does not say "We are entering into a protocol with Hungary because it did great things during the 1950s and because there are many Hungarians in Canada and so we will help them now". No. They say: "No, we signed a protocol with Hungary because it is in our interest to do so. Hungarians have investments in Canada, and we have investments in Hungary. We want to continue to trade with them, so we sign agreements. That is how things work at the international level". The same for Trinidad and Tobago. In fact, the opposition critic explained that some harmonization was necessary in our trade with Trinidad and Tobago. No problem at all.
So I read this bill and, speaking on behalf of the official opposition, I say: "We have agreements with Latvia, Estonia, Trinidad and Tobago, Hungary and 55 other countries in the world. Wonderful". So I start off by saying: "There are certain things that are done involving large countries and small countries. Small countries which Canada does not seem to look down on, which it respects because they are sovereign". That is the beauty of sovereignty: you get respect. Whether you are big or small, when you are sovereign, you are respected because there are international conventions and practices, and the rules of the game are clearly
established. And that is why certain countries want to become sovereign. Today, Quebec is one of those countries. I say country, because to me, Quebec is a country.
Look at Quebec. When you see Quebecers and hear them talk and look at their history, you realize that, like it or not, Quebec is different from other parts of Canada. This is not to denigrate the people of Newfoundland, Franco-Ontarians, Westerners and British Columbians, but Quebecers are a bit different, and today, some of them are saying: At the international level, we are going to make this country a sovereign state. And now, one of the arguments being made in this debate is that Quebec will be in for hard times.
Daniel Johnson said: "Oops, if you become sovereign, there go 92,000 jobs". The very next day or three or four days or a week later, when they had a chance to think about it, they realized that 92,000 jobs was perhaps not impressive enough. So a respected federal finance minister told Quebec: "92,000? Probably more like one million". Not 900,000, not 900,100 or 909,150 but one million. That is impressive. We are "millionaires" in terms of job losses. He is not saying: "Oh, you will not lose one million jobs", but: "You might lose one million jobs", because if you ever do, since you are not big guys but little guys, with a small economy, you will definitely not be in the big league. If you are little, maybe Canada, which is bigger than you, or the United States, which is bigger than you, will say, we do not trade with the little guys, we only trade with the big guys.
So then there would be no more trade with Canada, no more trade between Quebec and Canada, no more trade between Quebec and the United States-this means a million jobs. Obviously it is a million jobs, if nobody buys what we produce and we do not buy what others want to sell us. Obviously, in trade and in production, there are going to be losses, but that is the way it works.
How does it work internationally? It works the way it does in this bill. Countries, states, make treaties and agreements based on their interests. That is how it works. For sure, some people are touchy because of certain events, they are unhappy, they say that things are going to work differently, and we hope this is not the way it is going to be.
The Leader of the Official Opposition, Lucien Bouchard, will come and start negotiations. Maybe people will say they do not want to negotiate with us, they do not like us, we are demagogues, we are ethnic, we are out to do a number on ourselves and we are shrinking our economy. We will say to them: well, we had a vote, we want to reach an agreement with you, and we will reach it even if we do not reach it on the basis of the friendship that still developed over the years and centuries.
Quebec and Canada, and Quebec and the United States are not the same as Quebec and Latvia. With all due respect to Latvia, it is not the same. I see a member opposite listening intently and rolling his eyes skyward saying: "Oh, what clever remarks". The hon. member was born in Hull, and I congratulate him on it. There are members like us; the hon. member for Québec-Est was born in Penetanguishene, Ontario. There are still ties. Perhaps there are ties between my hon. colleague opposite and people in Quebec. Perhaps he has ties with people living in Latvia and Estonia.
But it is not on that basis that we want to negotiate. We do not want you to negotiate with us because you like us, because we were with you for 130 years. It is not on that basis that we want to negotiate. We want to negotiate on the same basis as that in Bill C-105, which is not contentious and poses no problems. This basis is the interests of nations negotiating as equals because they are sovereign. This is the way things are done at the international level.
We in Quebec think we can do as well as Latvia, as Estonia, as Trinidad and Tobago. Why? For two good reasons. The first reason is that, if you look at what is currently happening in the world, according to some theories, the most populous countries, the countries with the largest domestic markets, are those that do best.
Then look at the most populous countries in the world and see how they are doing. Let us look at the U.S., which has the highest GDP. I will not talk about the other countries for fear of being accused of discrimination: "You said that France was No. 4 or 5. You are discriminating against the U.S. You like France a little less than the U.S. What is the matter?" "Would a Bloc member say that he liked France less? He is more of a Franco-American; he is not a francophile". In a campaign like the one under way, one must be prudent.
However, if we look at the world's countries on the basis of their GDP per capita and their population, we see Switzerland, with 6 million people, in second place, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg in third place, Denmark, Austria, Belgium, Sweden, Iceland, Norway, the Netherlands, Finland- Did I mention any poor countries? These countries are among the top 20, and the top 10 include four or five countries with populations of five, six or seven million. Population is no longer as important a factor as it used to be.
Empires expanded. The British Empire, that my hon. colleague opposite is so fond of, expanded to increase business opportunities for British merchants who wanted to gain access to the market in India, Africa and so on. In those days, this was important, but it is no longer the case today. The size of any given country is not relevant. I am not theorizing. This is a fact confirmed in the economic accounts of respected countries such as Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Austria, Belgium, Sweden, and Iceland, which are not as large as some others.
The Austrian population is certainly not as large as the Chinese population, yet Austria does very well for itself. Back in 1991, Austria ranked 10th in terms of per capita gross domestic product. That is not bad at all. This country, a former empire, has had its problems and suffered greatly during the second world war. Today, Austria is a player.
What I mean by that is that globalization is giving smaller countries the change to enter the global markets. It is not up to their neighbours to decide whether or not they can enter these markets. There are international regulations for that as the OECD has regulations governing treaties between various countries or tax conventions. There are rules.
The size of the country is no longer the determining factor. The main thing is to gain access to international markets. Second, and this is a major factor, there must be a demand for what you produce, your products must be well made and you must have what the economists call a niche of your own, an area in which you excel. You need not be great at everything, just in certain areas and develop markets from there. That is why I think that, in terms of size, Quebec, as a country, would compare favourably with Austria, Denmark, Switzerland, Sweden and the like, and do quite well.
Quebec is not a poor nation. Some people seem to want to put up a fence around Quebec, including the Minister of Finance who says: "Listen, when that fence is up, you will lose one million jobs". I am sorry but there will be no such fence, because this is not the way things work. Why did the minister say one million jobs? One million, as in the word millionaire. The Minister of Finance knows about millionaires, but he would be better off talking about the billions of dollars worth of freight transported on his ships, or the millions in goods produced in his plants. It is inappropriate on the part of a finance minister to tell Quebecers that one million of them will become unemployed if sovereignty is achieved, and that a fence will be built around Quebec.
The issue of Quebec's population in relation to the prosperity which it can develop is not a factor here, because it is not for other countries either. As I said, Quebec is not without assets. Its GDP stands at 160 billion dollars. Quebec is a modern state with major institutions, including a deposit and investment fund, Hydro-Quebec and a pension board, and with large corporations which developed over the years, even though, at one point, some of these big entrepreneurs invested in Northern Ireland and in Belgium, and said: "In Quebec, we started off in a small village". I could mention the community of Valcourt, where a major Canadian and Quebec multinational is based. One would think that it is a Quebec company, but we were told: "It is not a Quebec corporation, it is a
Canadian one. And if Quebec becomes sovereign, do not expect us to stay here: we will move back to Canada".
Over the last 30 or 35 years, Quebec developed industrial structures and trade policies which will enable it to join the countries which I mentioned earlier. We rank 16th in terms of the GDP. This is quite something. Quebec is part of Canada. Our friends across the floor say: "Quebec is part of Canada. If you leave Canada, you will become poor, while Canada will keep on being rich".
That is all very fine, but the wealth of Quebec and the wealth of Canada are similar in terms of domestic product. Quebec sovereignty does not take our engineers from us. Quebec sovereignty does not take our capital from us. Quebec sovereignty does not take our administrators, our poets; it takes nothing from us.
Quebec sovereignty gives us additional powers in terms of laws, gives us additional powers in terms of treaties we can negotiate. Treaties like those Canada has with 55 countries, we will have too. We will have them because we have something to offer. There are people in those countries who may come to invest in Quebec and people in Quebec who may go and invest there. We will be able to have as many treaties as you have managed to have.
That is why it is most appropriate to bring up the case of Quebec in my intervention concerning Bill C-105, for it shows us that it is completely normal for the Government of Canada to have treaties with Latvia, with Estonia, with Trinidad and Tobago, with Hungary, as it will be completely normal for there to be one between Canada and Quebec, once its citizens have decided on sovereignty. And we will have such a treaty.
We keep hearing "But you are not telling Quebecers what you will do afterward. What will the partnership be like? We do not have much of an idea". Just do a bit of reading. I imagine that the hon. members have most definitely familiarized themselves with Quebec's bill on sovereignty, that they are also aware of the agreement signed this past June between Messrs. Bouchard, Parizeau and Dumont on the matter of the partnership treaty between Quebec and Canada.
And what will that partnership treaty cover? A customs union, free circulation of goods, free circulation of individuals, free circulation of services, free circulation of capital, monetary policy, manpower mobility, citizenship. It is a treaty between sovereign states. By the very fact that we shall be a sovereign state, we shall have the possibility of signing treaties. If Canada wants to sign treaties with Quebec in other areas, we are open to any and all discussion.
My point is that once we are sovereign, even if our economy is not as big as Canada's, we will be able to sign treaties just like Estonia, Hungary, Trinidad and Tobago and Latvia.
And they will be signed for the same reason they were signed with the countries I just referred to, because it is in our interest to do so. We claim, and I am sure that the people of Quebec will trust us to do the right thing, that this is in the interest of Quebec and of Canada.
Of course Canada will maintain up to the last minute that there will be no negotiations and no agreement ever. Our Canadian friends are so anxious to make this point that yesterday, when the Prime Minister of Canada was in Quebec, he said: "There will be nothing, because Canada will disappear if Quebec leaves. We do not know what will happen. There will be nothing left, because once Quebec has gone, there will be no more Canada". That is how we understood Mr. Chrétien's speech.