Debates of Oct. 19th, 1995

British Columbia Treaty Commission

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

moved that Bill C-107, an act respecting the establishment of the British Columbia Treaty Commission be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in my place today to begin debate on second reading of Bill C-107, an act respecting the establishment of the British Columbia Treaty Commission.

The legislation confirms Canada's obligations under the B.C. Treaty Commission agreement signed in September 1992 by the Government of Canada, the Government of British Columbia and the First Nations Summit. It is an obligation we have inherited from the previous government, but its aims and objectives lie close to the heart of this government.

Our government is committed to building new partnerships with aboriginal people based on trust and mutual respect. In the 1993 election we addressed aboriginal issues in the red book. We stated what a Liberal government would do.

In the red book we stated that our goal was: a Canada where aboriginal people would enjoy a standard of living and quality of life and opportunity equal to those other Canadians; a Canada where First Nations, Inuit and Metis people would live self-reliantly, secure in the knowledge of who they are as unique peoples; a Canada where all Canadians would be enriched by aboriginal cultures and would be committed to the fair sharing of the potential of our nation; and a Canada where aboriginal people would have the positive option to live and work wherever they chose. Perhaps most important, the red book set out our goal for Canada where aboriginal children would grow up in secure families and healthy communities with the opportunity to take their full place in Canada.

As a result, we also said that the resolution of land claims would be a priority. That is our vision and we have been moving step by step to bring it alive. In two years we have already made considerable progress. On August 10, I and my colleague, the federal interlocutor for Metis and non-status Indians, announced the government's approach to the implementation of the inherent right of aboriginal self-government.

We have fostered greater economic development opportunities for aboriginal communities through co-management agreements and support for business ventures. We have committed an additional $20 million annually to the Indian and Inuit post-secondary student support program. We have settled some 44 specific claims and have seen five comprehensive claims come into effect. By any measure we have achieved a great deal in living up to the commitments we made to the people of Canada in the red book.

Perhaps the most complex challenge is the one that the legislation before us addresses: treaty making in British Columbia. I would like to remind the House that British Columbia is unique in Canada in that the process of signing treaties has never been completed. Only a handful of treaties were signed in the pre-Confederation period. They cover parts of Vancouver Island. In 1899 Treaty No. 8 was signed with the First Nations in the Peace River area in northeastern B.C. However, in the rest of the province the issue of aboriginal rights remains largely unresolved.

The First Nations have wanted to resolve these issues. Repeatedly they have pressed for treaties, but only until this decade did the provincial government have the willingness to negotiate. It maintained previously that there was no need to negotiate. It said that whatever rights to land and resources the aboriginal people may have once had were extinguished long ago. The result was decades of legal acrimony. The First Nations sought settlement through the courts of what they had been unable to achieve through the negotiation process.

In 1973 the Supreme Court of Canada was asked whether aboriginal title to the Nisga'a traditional territory had been extinguished. It was the Calder case. The six judges were evenly split on the question. The Government of Canada then adopted a policy to enter into negotiations to resolve comprehensive claims.

The courts for their part have expressed repeatedly and in the strongest terms that the issues brought before them ought to be settled at the negotiation table, not before the bar. They should be settled through negotiation, not litigation.

In the case of Delgamuukw v. Her Majesty for example, Judge Macfarlane wrote:

Treaty making is the best way to respect Indian rights-.The questions of what aboriginal rights exist-cannot be decided in this case, and are ripe for negotiation.

The learned judge went on to observe:

During the course of these proceedings, it became apparent that there are two schools of thought.

The first is an all or nothing approach, which says that the Indian nations were here first, that they have exclusive ownership and control of all the land and resources and may deal with them as they see fit.

The second is a co-existence approach, which says that the Indian interest and other interests can co-exist to a large extent, and that consultation and reconciliation is the process by which the Indian culture can be preserved and by which other Canadians may be assured that their interests, developed over 125 years of nationhood, can also be respected-. I favour the second approach.

I agree with the learned judge. I too favour the second approach. I am certain that members of the House would agree that the co-existence approach, based upon consultation and reconciliation, is the appropriate course. It is this government's course. It is the course preferred by the vast majority of Canadians and the vast majority of aboriginal people.

We have undergone a turbulent summer of protest and pain. Issues which have been left unresolved for decades have erupted into violence. Negotiation, not confrontation, resolves issues. This legislation provides the framework for these negotiations in B.C. If we do not negotiate, we leave the field to those who believe in the all or nothing approach. We leave the resolution to those who have little regard for the law.

The B.C. Treaty Commission establishes a solid foundation for consultation and reconciliation. It lies at the heart of the co-existence approach. This legislation confirms the creation of the B.C. Treaty Commission as an arm's length body with a mandate to ensure the three parties are adequately prepared for the negotiations.

Some members across the floor criticize the BCTC because they maintain it will concede too much to First Nations. They monger fear and misunderstanding by removing facts from the context. How many times on radio shows and at town hall meetings have they used the process of negotiations to instil suspicion and resentment in the hearts of British Columbians? How many times over the past few months have we heard that the First Nations of British Columbia claim 110 per cent of the province?

The hon. members who raise these issues ought to know better. They know the claims overlap. They know they are simply opening positions that take into account the history of the various First Nations. They know the final solutions of these settlements will be very different from the opening positions. Yet they persist in stirring up fear and misunderstanding by repeating the 110 per cent figure as though it were an outrageous demand upon the common sense of the people of British Columbia. They claim the Government of Canada is ignoring other interests affecting negotiations. They spread misinformation.

These hon. members are the kinds of people who themselves favour an all or nothing approach. They do not espouse the same cause as those described by Judge Macfarlane, the view that aboriginal people have exclusive ownership, but their philosophy is the same, all or nothing. They have no patience for reconciliation or consultation. Their approach will lead us inevitably to the confrontation and lawlessness that we witnessed in British Columbia over the past few months.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I see I have their attention now.

The role of the commission is to facilitate, not negotiate modern day treaties. Its main functions are to assess the readiness of the parties to begin negotiations, allocate and negotiate funding to aboriginal groups, assist parties to obtain dispute resolution services at the request of all parties, and monitor and report on the status of negotiations.

This House will be pleased to hear that 47 First Nations groups are involved with the BCTC process. They represent over 70 per cent of the B.C. First Nations. Two First Nations, the Teslin and the Gitanyow, are about to complete the third stage of the negotiation process. Their framework agreements have been initialled by negotiators and I hope to be in a position to sign these agreements soon. Soon they will begin negotiating an agreement in principle.

I have also had occasion to sign the Sechelt, the Gitxsan, the Wet'suwet'en, and the Champagne Aishihik transboundary claim framework agreements. This is significant progress and I would like to thank the negotiators for all parties for making it possible.

We are well down the road of consultation and reconciliation that provides the foundation for a coexistence approach to settlement of land claims. I want to make one issue very clear, particularly to those members across the floor who would stir up misinformation and distrust. Our approach of consultation, reconciliation, and coexistence applies to all interested groups in British Columbia, not just the three parties at the negotiating table. Many different groups, organizations, and individuals have a major stake in how the land claim settlements are resolved. We are dealing after all with land and resources that provide the livelihood of British Columbians from many walks of life in all regions of the province.

All British Columbians will benefit from seeing these longstanding issues resolved. The negotiations will remove the uncertainty that has held back development. Resolution opens the doors to new investment and jobs in the province.

To ensure the negotiating process remains accessible to the public the openness protocol is negotiated for each treaty negotiation. A typical protocol will list specific measures the federal and provincial governments or the First Nations must take to an open and productive treaty process. These protocols keep the community and the media informed about what is happening at the negotiating table.

As of June 15, 11 negotiations have completed the openness protocols. For the negotiations to be fair the voices of all interested British Columbians must be heard. We have launched a province-wide consultation process to advise both the federal and provincial

governments on the views of those who cannot be at the negotiating table but whose interests must be represented there.

The process functions at two levels. A 31-member treaty negotiation advisory committee, TNAC, brings the perspective of municipal governments, business, labour, fishing, wildlife, and environmental groups to the treaty-making process. Each committee member sits on one of four sectoral groups representing lands and forests, fisheries, governance, and wildlife. The members ensure that the interests and expertise of their organizations are understood and are taken into consideration in treaty negotiations.

I have met with these advisory committee members. So has our colleague, the hon. member for Vancouver East. The BCTC commissioners and the federal and provincial negotiating teams provide updates to the members on the process of negotiations.

The second level of consultations brings the diverse interests of the various regions of the province to bear in the land claims process. Regional advisory committees are being struck in each treaty negotiation area to represent local interests. In fact as part of the land claims process the BCTC requires a regional advisory committee be struck before Canada and B.C. are declared "ready to negotiate" a treaty with First Nations. These committees work directly with federal and provincial negotiating teams by providing input on the formulation of interest and comments on the options for discussions at the negotiating table. For example, we have formed committees in Bulkley-Skeena, West Coast Vancouver Island, Westbank Kelowna, and the lower mainland.

In the months ahead British Columbians will have an opportunity to participate in an historical process. They have the opportunity to correct an imbalance. For generations the people of British Columbia, aboriginal and non-aboriginal, have lived in a legal no-man's land of claims, conflicting claims, and refusal to acknowledge deep-seated historical wrongs.

We are setting up a process whereby hundreds of years after the first interaction of two civilizations we can find a just and equitable resolution on how land and resources are to be shared. The all or nothing approach is not a solution for the 1990s. All parties, with good conscience, openness to new ideas, but with a new tough resolve to protect what is most important to each of us, must now sit at the negotiating table. We must talk. If we do not talk and if we do not resolve these issues through consultation and reconciliation we leave the field open to those who believe that the only resolution is all or nothing.

I have maintained all along that self-government agreements work best when designed from the ground up with the input of the people they affect. Now is not the time for land claim settlements by government decree or constitutional amendment. Now is the time for creativity and flexibility for modern treaty making. It will be a slow, painstaking process. It will require a great reservoir of goodwill among all parties in the negotiating process. The process is harmed immeasurably by the kind of fearmongering and controversy we have seen stirred up by those who want to score short-term political points.

I am confident that the negotiation process will succeed in British Columbia. I am confident because I have been working with my provincial colleagues, with the leaders of the First Nations, and the members of the treaty negotiating advisory committee. I know that these are people of goodwill who are dedicated to reaching an equitable solution.

Canadians and British Columbians must settle this unfinished business. I urge this House to support this legislation and give the federal commissioner the power to get on with the job.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, considering that the government only presented the Reform members with this bill after 3 p.m. yesterday, which is in typical fashion, I would like to seek consent of the House if we may have the opportunity to question the minister about the bill.

[The Deputy Speaker]

That is not a point of order. I think the correct thing for the member to do is wait until he speaks on behalf of his party. Then he might ask the minister, if the minister will permit with unanimous consent, some questions and answers. It is entirely a matter for unanimous consent of the House.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we ended treaty at the Alberta border, and for 100 years we said we would come back and deal with these people who have lived there for 10,000 years.

Succeeding governments have tried to and made movement to start a process. But when I walk through these doors, as we all must at some point in our lives, the one thing I will be proud of is that in October 1993 this government was elected and in December 1993 the B.C. Treaty Commission doors were opened for negotiations.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, of course Bloc Quebecois members will support Bill C-107.

However there are a few concerns that should be addressed in the debate. Having always made a point of seeing for myself how aboriginal people live, I feel I am better able to speak, perhaps with a bit more assurance, about aboriginal issues, including the bill before us.

As recently as last summer, I had the great privilege of visiting British Columbia and meeting with some aboriginal nations, some communities which were deeply concerned about the negotiation and the British Columbia Treaty Commission.

Among others, I met with the Nisga'a nation, the main party to the negotiations in British Colombia. I had the extreme privilege of visiting, with Mr. Adams, five Nisga'a communities settled in an a marvelous area. A few hundred years ago, two Nisga'a communities were wiped off the map when a volcano erupted in that part of the country. Today the Nisga'a people revere the ruins of these ancient villages and are really anxious to reach an agreement.

This is no exception to the usual attitude among the communities I met in British Columbia. Up to now, they always chose the path of negotiation in good faith rather than confrontation. Why do I mention the Nisga'a? Because, as I said in my opening remarks, I think they are at the centre of these negotiations. As you know the Nisga'a band is probably-in fact, it is-the only nation that is not under the umbrella of the British Columbia Treaty Commission because they had started their negotiations even before the commission was created, and the federal government recognized it.

I will give a short overview of the commission's progress in a few moments. As a matter of fact, having begun to negotiate before any other band, the Nisga'a are they necessarily a length ahead the others now.

However, they feel it is important for the negotiations to progress as fast as possible. Unfortunately, they are now blocked, both at the commission and with the Nisga'a.

Speaking of concerns in this regard, both the Chilcotin band and the Carrier-Sekanni band I visited told me that, if the negotiations with the Nisga'a did not progress, the commission's efforts to negotiate agreements with nations and communities of British Columbia could grind to a halt. This is why I feel we should take an interest in what is happening to the Nisga'a, who right now are having a really bad time.

Personally, I witnessed the terrible devastation of the forest environment. A certain territory has been recognized as belonging to the Nisga'a as part of their ancestral land or aboriginal territory. We know what the terms "aboriginal territory" mean. The Nisga'a are asking for only 8 per cent of this territory recognized by the court.

However, despite the fact that their claim is rather modest and reasonable, the Nisga'a are witnessing today the plundering of their forests. Between 100 and 200 trucks a day are taking away freshly cut logs. They are asking themselves: "My God, are we ever going to come to an agreement to put an end to this plundering, and manage to protect our hunting and fishing rights recognized by the Canadian constitution?" I have, in my office, videos which show the dreadful consequences of the clear cuts in British Columbia where, once the loggers have gone through, there is nothing left, neither trees nor beasts. Very often, the damage is irreparable. Such forests will take hundreds of years to recover.

In their opinion, had such forest been burned to the ground it would recover faster than it will in the present situation.

It is a race to clear cut as much of the forest as possible, and the Chilcotin, the Carrier-Sekkani and the Nisga'a, have a feeling that governments are allowing this wanton destruction, this mad race for profit, this rush to clear cut everything. When it is all over, when all the resources are gone, they believe they will be told: "Now, we are ready to resume negotiations and we are willing to give you the territory", a territory which will have been emptied, as I just said, of all its natural resources.

The Nisga'a are extremely concerned. I even wrote to the premier of British Columbia, asking him to put an end to this plundering. As you know, British Columbia is a big province, as big as Quebec, if not bigger. You have to travel by plane to reach these native communities. One can see the damage done by logging companies through clear cutting.

I take this opportunity to say that I, for one, find shocking this complete waste of a province's natural resources on what will probably be considered native lands, and recognized as such. We remain silent before the devastation, and the natives must wait for the negotiations to continue. In the meantime, they see that their lands keep deteriorating. It was worth mentioning, I think.

I also noticed a general shortage of housing in the communities; several generations live under one roof. There are health problems.

Finally, there is a pressing need to conclude treaties in British Columbia. I will talk about Quebec native communities later. In this regard, Quebec is a model. British Columbia would benefit from imitating the Quebec government, which has great respect for natives, in spite of what is reported in the media. I can assure you of the contrary, as I will demonstrate. I wish good luck to the people of British Columbia, hoping they will follow in Quebec's footsteps with regard to native peoples.

Let me talk a little about the Chilcotin people from British Columbia, because they are very outspoken. Something funny happened. When I told them that the official opposition critic wished to meet them, it apparently created quite a commotion in the community. The fact that a nasty separatist from Quebec, even though a critic for Indian affairs and as such in a position to put questions regularly to the minister, wanted to come to talk with them about their problems made them rather uneasy. They were a little concerned. However I found them to be great people, and warriors. I call them "warriors" because the Chilcotin pride

themselves in having been the only native nation in Canada to have fought a war against white people and won.

As you know, all the natives in Canada say they might have fought wars, one side against the other, but in the case of the Chilcotin, it was definitely the case and they are proud of it. They even mentioned the names of warriors who took part in the battle. It was clear to them that the Chilcotin had defeated the white people who wanted to invade their territory, but of course they were unable to hold out for long after that first victory. From then on, there was a gradual invasion of their territory.

Promises had been made to them at that time. It is worth noting that these were not necessarily agreements signed between the Prime Minister, Her Majesty the Queen and some representative of the natives. Even the courts are now beginning to recognize that the verbal agreements and commitments made at the time were legally binding, because natives were absolutely not able to understand-they needed translators to have white people's words translated into their language and white people needed translators to understand what the natives were saying. Thus verbal agreements were binding. Courts are beginning to recognize it.

At that time, those natives were told: "Listen, we recognize the Chilcotin nation, we recognize the Chilcotin Valley as your hunting and fishing grounds". What happened to the Chilcotin has happened to many native communities in Canada.

Over the years, over the decades, over the centuries, there has been a gradual invasion. Today this proud Chilcotin nation is reduced to six small communities on small reserves.

To look at the population figures, I believe that since 1987 the population of these communities has doubled. Now the people are living in cramped reserves, threatened with prosecution by the pulp and paper and forest companies if they go off their reserve to hunt.

There are huge problems, therefore, and the Chilcotin are impatiently waiting for the British Columbia treaty commission to get moving to ensure them of the few natural resources remaining to them.

The same situation exists with housing. Sometimes there are three generations living under one roof. The Chilcotin would therefore like to see the negotiating process get not just started up but speeded up.

Another example they spoke to me about, and one in which I have had to intervene, was that the military base in the Chilcotin valley is testing artillery on Chilcotin land. They have been trying without success for years to get this testing stopped.

The situation is therefore this: overpopulated reserves, an inability to have any say about such vital issues as housing and the free disposal of property that ought to be theirs, since they were the original inhabitants, an inability to have any effective impact on a military base which continues to pillage their natural resources. Needless to say, the Chilcotin are anxious to see the whole thing settled.

They too have agreements, and this is where we see the sense of responsibility among the aboriginal nations. The Chilcotin have an agreement with Fisheries. Some twenty people are involved with fisheries, the salmon fisheries among others. Conservation is primary among the priorities set. The concept of conservation is assured.

Then there is the concept of subsistence fishing, and thirdly there is commercial fishing. The Chilcotin have demonstrated that when they are given these responsibilities not only are they excellent conservationists but they can also obtain their food from subsistence fishing or hunting.

There are many such examples, and there is great anticipation of the day when everything can all be translated into agreements. At the moment, unfortunately, everything is at a standstill.

I will tell you a little later on where I think negotiations have stalled. I believe the federal government has a responsibility, but the Government of British Columbia also has a responsibility. I think both sides have to agree if there is to be any progress, because these aboriginal communities are ready to start negotiations, but we are now seeing obstruction on the part of the Government of British Columbia, and the federal government, instead of putting the pressure on to get things moving again, just sits there and says: "Well, I am going to wait until the Government of British Columbia pulls the switch and starts negotiating in good faith".

The trouble with the Premier of British Columbia is that when he came to power, with the NDP, he was very, very receptive to aboriginal issues. But recently, probably under pressure from the Reform Party, he is starting to say: "Listen-". They started by setting a deadline for the Nisga'a, and they said: "If no agreement is reached by that date, the deal is off". Of course the deadline passed and now all negotiations have been on hold since last summer.

Because of growing support for the Reform Party in western Canada, the Harcourt government is backing down and unfortunately, it is not only backing down but, as I said earlier, it allows this wholesale destruction of natural resources to continue. Meanwhile, the aboriginal peoples have to watch this exodus of natural resources from their communities without being able to intervene.

I also met the Carrier-Sekkani in Prince George. We had a very frank discussion about sovereignty. These aboriginal peoples, although they happen to be in British Columbia, 5,000 kilometres from Quebec, are concerned about the economic and political status of their brothers and sisters in eastern Canada, and I am referring particularly to Quebec. We had a very good free ranging discussion about the sovereignty of Quebec, and I think the Carrier-Sekkani understood that the quality of life of aboriginal

peoples in Quebec was clearly to be envied, compared with the quality of life of aboriginal peoples elsewhere.

I think we agreed on that. We also agreed that Quebec was certainly not going to build the Berlin wall the day after sovereignty is proclaimed to prevent aboriginal peoples or the Inuit from maintaining their contacts with their brothers and sisters in Canada and elsewhere, including Antarctica and the United States. Those contacts already exist and will continue to do so.

So, therefore, we each assured the other. They asked me as well, naturally, for support. They were very concerned about the British Columbia Treaty Commission. They said: "You know, Mr. Bachand, the commission will never get off the ground so long as there is no progress in the negotiations with the Nisga'a". If these negotiations blocked at the point they had reached, the others' negotiations at the first stage could almost certainly not be expected to catch up with the Nisga'as'. The Nisga'as are 20 years ahead of the other communities in their negotiations. Therefore the bill before us today is of major concern in British Columbia.

I want to say in passing-I was talking about the Carrier-Sekani earlier-I would like, while we are before the cameras here, to salute Camille Joseph, elder of the Carrier-Sekani nation, who is well into his 90s. I simply sent him a congratulatory note, but I will take a moment during my speech to note it in passing, because I think it should be mentioned.

The three communities I have just talked to you about are on the mainland. I went to the Island as well. The same concerns are to be found on Vancouver Island. Members of the Mid-Island Tribal Council expressed their concerns to me about the progress in the Nisga'a negotiations and the systematic blocking they are currently facing.

I thought it important to situate the context of this bill's passage, a bit. There is nothing like speaking when one has been there personally and has met them and discussed all these questions with them, often over a number of hours. So I think it appropriate to mention it here. British Columbia is very rich in native culture.

You know, as everywhere else, there are 200 reserves, 200 communities there and whether the people are Chilcotin, Nisga'a, Haida or others, all these nations are different and even communities within the same nation differ from one another.

Therefore, it is important to know. I went to the museum in Victoria, and the whole place, the complete two story museum, is dedicated to relations between the white people and the aboriginal peoples. There we can see that the aboriginal peoples of British Columbia really had an impact on cultural values in that province.

I will not hide the fact that there is some hostility now. It is true, but maybe it is because some people provoke that hostility. I can tell you that the natives feel no hostility whatsoever towards the white people. But they have been waiting for 150 years for issues to be settled, and it has not happened yet.

It is important to realize, to see, and it is important that I can attest to the cultural impact of the native people and to their contribution to the life of the white people in British Columbia. You can see it in all the stores, the museums and the schools. The native culture is omnipresent, it has a direct impact on white and non aboriginal values and I think that, with the creation of this commission, time has come to make sure we reach an amicable agreement with the native people of that area, just as we are trying to do in Quebec where I think we are well on our way.

According to my notes, Europeans have been present in British Columbia for 140 years now, and during that time, 14 treaties covering approximately 358 square miles on Vancouver Island were signed, involving the Hudson's Bay Company. Since Confederation, there has been only one treaty, in 1899; it is one of the numbered ones. In total, there are ten numbered treaties in Canada and that one is number eight; it covers the Peace River region and the northern part of Alberta.

It is important to note that treaty negotiations have been essential for native peoples in British Columbia for the last 140 years. Their chiefs went to London to see the king. They regularly came to Ottawa, and went to the Court in London, to try to solve their problem, but to no avail. Worse yet, we, the non-natives, made serious mistakes concerning them, and British Columbia is no exception.

Moreover, I have here some notes indicating that in 1927 and 1951 they were prohibited from going to court. That meant that these people, who were trying to negotiate their land claims in good faith, could not even go to court when the negotiations appeared to be deadlocked. In spite of it all, native peoples have persevered, sometimes breaking the law, and today the situation is such that we have to find a solution. Of course, now they are allowed to go to court and, in British Columbia, things are following their course.

I have a few examples here. In 1973, the six judges of the Supreme Court were split on whether to recognize native land titles; consequently, the federal government said: "Listen, we have to settle this whole thing. We have to start negotiating".

In 1982, there was another turning point with the patriation of the constitution which, by the way, Quebec did not sign, and never will after all, I believe. This constitution contained provisions dealing with native peoples; aboriginal rights and treaty rights were

recognized; the last remnants of British colonialism crumbled, imperialist policies started to fall apart, and then, the injunctions preventing aboriginal peoples from going to court naturally became null and void.

For the past 15 years, we have been trying again to find solutions through negotiations or through the courts, if negotiations are not possible.

I believe that the decision we will make today when we pass C-107, will be a vindication of this long struggle and will enable us to finally put an end to a history of confrontation which has plagued British Columbia for the past 150 years.

There is also an history to the commission. There was a report from a task force on claims in British Columbia and the creation of the commission was discussed at that time. The creators of that commission had really identified the need to enter into treaties with the first nations. I quote from that report: "that a new partnership be developed to recognize the importance of natives and first nations in Canada, based on voluntary negotiations well carried out, where natives, the provincial government and the federal government would be on an equal footing".

In September 1992, an agreement in principle was signed between the three authorities. This agreement implemented 19 recommendations made by the task force I mentioned earlier, including recommendation No. 3 which, at the time, called for the creation of the British Columbia Treaty Commission that was set up a little later and that we will confirm, because the federal government had not yet confirmed its participation, although that was happening in practice.

Today, or in the next few days, with the passing of Bill C-107, we will have confirmed the participation of the federal government in this issue.

In the history of the commission, it is also important to mention that at the provincial level, it is only in 1993 that British Columbia got its Indian Affairs Department. That was long overdue, considering all the problems that exist in British Columbia. It was not long ago that the department was established. So, it is important today that we have a recognized department, a recognized minister in British Columbia, a counterpart of the federal minister to be able to thoroughly discuss the issues.

The First Nations Summit would also be a principal to the commission. The first nations have given themselves a negotiation tool called the Summit, which is part of the agreements leading to the commission. This Summit is very active and several of the groups that I was mentioning earlier are participants in the Summit and defend the interests of natives, which will lead, they hope, to treaties.

How does this work? There are six different steps in the process. I think that it is important to follow the course of these steps. The first stage consists in submitting a declaration of intent to negotiate. I will get back to this later on. Forty or so first nations have already done so.

The second stage is the stage at which negotiation arrangements are made, first meetings held and evaluations conducted to determine if the first nations are prepared to negotiate. A first meeting takes place, where one group asks the other: "Are you ready to negotiate? How soon can we start?", and so on. A number of first nations, of whom I wanted to give you the list, are already at stage 2.

Stage 3 is the negotiation of a master agreement. The further along I get into this process, the less progress is made on these issues in terms of first nations's participation.

Stage 4 is the negotiation of an agreement in principle; stage 5, the negotiation of a definitive treaty; and stage 6, the implementation of the definitive treaty.

I told you that 43 first nations were taking part in the process. To date, 14 claims have passed stage 1. No individual group has gone further than stage 3 at this point in time. It should be noted however that the Nisga'as have taken an approach to negotiations that is different from the normal approach used by the commission. The Nisga'as negotiated for 27 years just to get to the equivalent of stage 3. Unfortunately, and I must digress here to say this, negotiations have stopped since.

As I indicated earlier, when the BC premier was elected, he said that the issue had to be settled. Finally, they agreed to set up the commission. Now, we can see that, with a provincial election impending in British Columbia, the premier is backtracking on his promises. The result is stalled negotiations with the Nisga'as, which in turn stalls the entire negotiation process with the other first nations of British Columbia.

Let us now turn to Quebec. We should wish to the BC first nations that their negotiations can eventually reach as advanced a stage as was reached in negotiations with their Quebec counterparts. Unlike British Columbia, Quebec has been signing modern treaties for the past 20 years, including the famous James Bay Agreement.

Twenty years ago, the Crees, the federal government and the Quebec government signed this historical agreement, which has become a standard agreement for the rest of Canada. More accurately, any time first nations seemed to be on the verge of achieving self-government or asked the federal government and their respective provincial government: "Could you spare a piece

of jurisdiction that we could take over?", the James Bay Agreement was quoted as a reference.

As far as I am concerned, it is still a reference, and just to show you how open-minded Quebecers are, they are now saying: "Even if we are always leading the way, under the present circumstances, we agree with the Crees on the need to update the James Bay Agreement model". This goes to show how open-minded Quebecers are concerning first nations and how far they are ready to go to meet native claims in Quebec.

I have some statistics before me that I should share with you because they come from the assistant to the Minister of Indian Affairs, Professor Bradford Morse, who, in a study he submitted to the task force, gives examples of a new constitutional partnership. As recently as 1992, Professor Morse wrote on the subject of land claims that Quebec was the first Canadian province to accept the continuity of aboriginal titles and to recognize them by trying to negotiate land claim settlements. Professor Morse concluded that, compared with the other provinces, Quebec has adopted a comprehensive position that can be seen as much more favourable to aboriginal people and their rights over their traditional lands.

I think that Professor Morse thus recognizes that the people of Quebec are ahead on land claims. They are so much ahead that, when this study was done, we had already concluded the model agreement I referred to earlier, the James Bay Agreement. However, the proposal that has just been made to the Attikamek-Montagnais was not yet on the table. This proposal would recognize what we call native areas, over which native people will have full jurisdiction. We will negotiate an agreement with them on how to divide the territory, over which they will have complete freedom with regard to, among other things, joint management of natural, non-renewable and other resources.

As far as these native areas are concerned, our proposal to the Attikamek-Montagnais even provides for a 40,000 square kilometre buffer zone, which we have agreed to share with the Attikamek-Montagnais. This shows once again that Quebec is in the vanguard of the drive to improve living conditions for Canada's native people.

On the question of self-government, Professor Morse goes on to say that, of all provincial governments, Quebec is the one that did the most to accommodate the desire of native people to exert more control over their lives and their community affairs.

The James Bay Agreement recognizes whole areas of jurisdiction that now come under the exclusive control of the Cree. These areas include culture, education and health. Instead of telling native people that they must go to all-white hospitals, follow the department's educational programs and comply with the directives from Environment Canada, the James Bay Agreement has put whole areas of jurisdiction under Cree control, and I think it is important to point this out.

The same goes for the language component. I just talked about culture, which is often closely related to language. Indeed, we Quebecers have known for a long time that our culture and our language are closely intertwined. We recognized that was also the case for aboriginal peoples. In that regard, it is rather interesting to see that, for several years now, the Supreme Court has been targeting Quebec's charter of the French language, Bill 101. Yet, that legislation must stay, and I want to tell you about some of its more interesting provisions. Quebec's charter expressly recognizes the right of aboriginals, Indians and Inuit to protect and develop their own language and culture.

The fact that Bill 101 even includes provisions which protect aboriginal languages in our province is an indication of how open minded Quebecers are.

This explains why, as professor wrote, aboriginal people in Quebec are much more successful in terms of preserving their language than those who live elsewhere in Canada. This is a perfectly normal and accepted way of doing things in Quebec where, for a long time now, young Crees have been taking Cree language classes with their own school board, while young Montagnais do the same in Pointe-Bleue or elsewhere.

It must be emphasized that Quebecers have always attached a great deal of importance to aboriginal cultures. We recognize the fact that aboriginals were here before us. We also recognize the fact that they have given us enormous wealth. In order to keep whole segments of these societies from disappearing, Quebecers strongly encourage the protection of aboriginal languages and cultures.

Incidentally, a while ago, Mrs. Beaudoin, the Quebec minister of intergovernmental affairs, submitted a claim to the federal government, which has not yet acted on it. As you know, the James Bay agreement deals with the sharing of costs relating to Crees and Naskapis. There is the James Bay agreement, but there is also the Northeastern Quebec agreement, which primarily concerns Naskapis.

Under that agreement, Quebec pays 25 per cent of the costs related to Crees and Naskapis, while the federal government pays for the rest. In the case of the Inuit, the proportions are reversed. However, some changes have occurred since 1987 regarding the sharing of these costs. Since that year, the birth rate among Crees has increased tremendously. Consequently, there are many more children attending school.

A special effort was made to develop education programs for adults. There is an increased demand for specialized education, including for young Cree children with special needs. The Quebec government pays for that component in the case of non aboriginal

children, but there is an increased demand up there, and we must provide the additional services required.

For some time, there was no problem with the federal government concerning the payment of these costs each year. Since 1987, however, the government has changed its way of doing things. It wants to index its contribution to the annual inflation rate and sticks to this rate instead of abiding by the provisions of the James Bay agreement which were negotiated in good faith by the federal government, Quebec as well as the Crees, the Naskapi and the Inuit.

Unfortunately, for the Quebec government, this meant a loss of $199 million in income. What did it do? It could easily have said to the young Crees, as some provinces did to other native groups: "Look, since the federal government, which has the fiduciary responsibility for the fees incurred on the reserves, is not paying its share, we are no longer able to financially support education for the young Crees, under the James Bay agreement. Tell them that some children will not be able to go to school this year".

I said earlier that the same thing goes on elsewhere in the United States. The people covered by the Treaty No. 7 in central Canada are being told that they can forget about post-secondary education. "We cannot send your children to school this year, because we ran out of money".

We could have done the same thing in Quebec, but the Quebec government met its responsibilities and took upon itself to foot the bill. Now, it is asking the federal government, the current Liberal government, to pay its share. I must say that I think it is unfortunate that the claim made by the government of Quebec has not been settled. We are talking about $199 million. It cannot just be shrugged off.

Professor Morse, an assistant to the Indian affairs minister, also says that Quebec has shown great leadership in promoting economic development. There are some economic development provisions in the James Bay agreement where it is recognized that significant compensation must be paid to the native communities following the construction of hydro-electric dams, and that was done. Their hunting, trapping and fruit-picking rights were also recognized. We are also leaders in economic development.

Furthermore, there is a happy combination of traditional activities, like hunting and fishing, and marketing. It is also worth mentioning that there are local outfitting operations managed by natives.

In health care, we see the same thing. The Quebec government is the leader. Natives in Quebec are in much better health than their counterparts in the rest of Canada.

Finally, I hope for the benefit of British Columbia natives that the federal government will adopt Bill C-107 and will go further and use its influence and its fiduciary role to force the Harcourt government to go back to the negotiating table. I also hope that the negotiations concerning the Nisga'as will be resumed and that the participation of the federal government as a party in the British Columbia Treaty Commission will be accepted so that natives in that province can one day benefit from as much generosity as natives in Quebec.

[Margaret Bridgman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, a request has been made by the hon. member for Vancouver East that she be able to use my time as she has commitments tomorrow. I have no problem with that.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Everything is possible with unanimous consent.

We could proceed this way with unanimous consent.

It would be understood, presumably, that the hon. member for Vancouver East would speak today for 20 minutes with a 10-minute question and answer period and that the Reform Party representative would have 40 minutes without a question and answer period the next time the matter comes up for debate.

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Anna Terrana, Liberal, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Surrey North for allowing me to speak.

I would also like to thank the Bloc Quebecois for letting me speak now.

The bill before us marks the culmination of a long and at times difficult struggle. It is born of British Columbia's unique history. It is the product of many years of hard work and goodwill. Fairness, clarity and justice are not issues of party politics. They are elements of principles which we all share as Canadians.

Over the decades many people have played a part: people from various parties and political ideologies, people who shared little in common except a desire to see justice done and to get on with building a brighter future for British Columbia.

To understand why in 1995 we are still talking about negotiating treaties we need to look to our history. Unlike most other provinces where treaties were signed to clarify jurisdiction over land and resources and forge new relationships between First Nations and the newcomers to this great land few were ever concluded in British Columbia. As a result some 124 years after becoming a province, the key question of unextinguished aboriginal rights remains unresolved and the majority of the province remains subject to outstanding aboriginal land claims.

Few treaties were signed because of the position historically taken by the Government of British Columbia. From the late 1800s the position was that aboriginal rights had been extinguished prior to B.C.'s entry into Confederation in 1871 or, if these rights did exist, they were the exclusive responsibility of the federal government.

In 1990 under the leadership of Premier Vander Zalm, a Socred, B.C. reversed its longstanding position and the way was opened to resolving these issues.

I think it only fair to point out that one of the key players in convincing the provincial government to reverse its historic opposition to negotiating treaties was the then B.C. minister of native affairs, Mr. Jack Weisgerber. I know that many of my Reform Party friends would recognize Mr. Weisgerber's name. One of the early and enthusiastic architects of this process, Mr. Weisgerber now leads the provincial Reform Party in British Columbia.

Following on the heels of the B.C. government's decision, the Government of Canada and the B.C. government acted quickly to advance the process. Later the same year the federal Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the hon. Tom Siddon, along with Mr. Weisgerber and Bill Wilson, chairman of the First Nations Congress, agreed to establish a task force to make recommendations on the mandate and process for treaty negotiations.

By June 1991 the B.C. claims task force had released its report. One of its key recommendations was the creation of an arm's length B.C. treaty commission.

In the 10 months that followed, representatives of Canada, B.C. and the First Nations summit negotiated the B.C. treaty commission agreement which was the blueprint for the commission. On September 21, 1992, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, Indian Affairs Minister Tom Siddon, both Conservatives, B.C. Premier Mike Harcourt and native affairs minister Andrew Petter, both New Democrats, joined with the First Nations summit leadership in signing the B.C. treaty commission agreement. We had all the parties on board.

In the three years since, the commission has made great progress. If there was ever any doubt that the commission was necessary, one need only look at the response it has had for the aboriginal population of British Columbia.

To date, 49 first nation groups representing 79 per cent of B.C.'s aboriginal peoples have submitted a statement of intent to negotiate. One of the terms of the agreement creating the treaty commission was a commitment to establish it in the legislation. In May 1993 both the aboriginal summit and the province fulfilled their part of that commitment.

Now the time has come for the federal government to honour its part of the bargain. These then are the events which have led us to this legislation and to this debate. I welcome all members to this great partnership.

Across the years and across party lines people have joined hands in a common cause. It is their vision and determination that we celebrate and formalize today. Their cause was simple: the desire to bring justice to aboriginal people and certainty to their province.

The costs of that uncertainty has been high. In a Price Waterhouse study prepared in 1990 it was estimated that $1 billion in investment had not occurred because of unresolved land claims. Three hundred badly needed jobs had not been created and $125 million in capital investments had not been made. Yesterday we had the mining industry in town and they were talking to me about the same problem.

Since the time of that study the price has continued to be paid year in and year out. That has been the price of denying the problem or pretending it would go away. That is the price of the status quo for the people of British Columbia. It is a price we can no longer afford. With the passage of this legislation we will be on the way to no longer having to pay.

But, if the price has been high for the general population of B.C., for aboriginal people it has been far higher. For aboriginal people it has meant great hardships and shattering poverty. It has meant the denial of historic rights and future hopes. It has meant generations of dreams deferred and promises unkept. It has meant a quality of life few of us can imagine and none of us should tolerate.

Conditions are appalling. Almost a third of aboriginal homes on reserves lack running water. Diseases such as hepatitis and tuberculosis virtually eradicated in the non-native population persist in aboriginal communities. Death from fires are three and a half times the non-aboriginal level because of unsafe housing and lack of proper sanitation.

Aboriginal people are more than three times as likely to die a violent death and about twice as likely to die before age 65. The

suicide rate among aboriginal people is 50 per cent higher than among non-aboriginal people. That difference is even more pronounced in the age group of 15 to 25.

This country can simply not afford to lose another generation of aboriginal people able and willing to make a contribution to this country. The young aboriginal people of today can be our professionals, our trades people, our inventors of tomorrow. They represent our past and our future. If we lose them it will be an incredible waste.

We cannot afford to continue to condemn aboriginal peoples to lesser lives in lesser lands. We cannot afford to judge any longer. We must start facilitating a process that is indispensable.

In my riding of Vancouver East I have one of the largest aboriginal urban communities in the country. It is an active community. Its members are engaged in bettering their situation by making everybody aware of their past and their plight. In Vancouver East there is the Aboriginal Friendship Centre and the Native Education Centre which help us understand them.

The people of B.C. have told their government to get on with it, to negotiate fair and just agreements which protect the rights of both aboriginal and non-aboriginal people alike, and the sooner the better.

We must do it in an organized manner and this is what the B.C. Treaty Commission has been doing and will continue to do. It wants to establish a stable economic climate which in turn will help to bring in investments, dollars and opportunities for all British Columbians and bring peace to our forests, our waters, our lands.

My colleague from the Bloc has explained very well how important aboriginal peoples are in British Columbia and I thank him. I also want to say that native peoples are very important to our culture, our past and our future in B.C. In fact, they are an extremely important part of the history of British Columbia, which, as you know, Mr. Speaker, is a wonderful part of Canada, where aboriginal peoples, anglophones, francophones and other communities from around the world all live in harmony.

In 1993, speaking in favour of the legislation creating the treaty commission, Jack Weisgerber recounted his experience in 1989 as a member of the premier's advisory council on native affairs: "It became clear to us as we travelled and met with groups around the province that if we were going to address the root of the social and economic problems we had to deal with the land claim question".

Those are wise words from a man who now leads the Reform Party in British Columbia, words echoed by members of all parties in the British Columbia legislature when that great body passed its own enabling legislation; words I commend to my friends across the floor today, words which we now have the opportunity to honour through our actions.

The history of this legislation is a story of partnerships between cultures, between political parties, between generations. Let us continue in that same spirit of partnership now as we open the way for a brighter future for all British Columbians and a prouder day for all Canadians.

We have already waited too long. We should have settled this problem long ago. We now must ensure peace and harmony with our aboriginal brothers and sisters by working with them on the settlement of their land claims and on their needs.

In the last two years we have done a lot of work and with everybody's co-operation we will be able to solve a long and overdue problem and ensure peace and certainty in British Columbia.

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise in support of Bill C-107 and in support of the comments made by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

Bill C-107 creates the legal framework for the British Columbia Treaty Commission to act as an arm's length body and facilitate treaty negotiations with British Columbia's First Nations.

I support the creation of the commission and its mandate. As hon. members are aware, very few of the First Nations in B.C. have ever signed treaties with the crown. In lower Vancouver Island several First Nations signed treaties with Governor Douglas in the mid-1800s. By the end of the 19th century the Peace River district was included in treaty number 8 signed with the federal government. Obviously it is well known to people from B.C., although it may not be known by other people in Canada, that was the last one. There have been no treaties signed in this century.

In recent years the Nisga'a Tribal Council has been actively negotiating with the federal and provincial governments. When those negotiations are complete and an agreement is signed it will be the first treaty with a B.C. First Nation signed this century, and we are almost in the next century.

The people of B.C. want to enter the 21st century knowing we have completed the unfinished business of the 19th century. The land claims of B.C. First Nations have to be resolved. Some people would ask why. Resolving these issues creates an environment of certainty which means economic growth and job creation. Settling land and resource issues creates the environment needed for increased investment and local economic activity.

In recent years real progress has been made toward resolving 100-year old unfinished business. In 1990 Ottawa, B.C. and the leaders of B.C.'s First Nations established a task force to recommend a negotiation process that could accommodate the numerous First Nations in B.C. that want to negotiate settlements.

The task force presented 19 recommendations in June, 1991, all of which were all accepted by the First Nations summit and the federal and provincial governments, a major achievement in itself. One of the key recommendations was to establish the British Columbia Treaty Commission as an arm's length minder of the process. The agreement committed the three partners to establish the BCTC through federal an provincial legislation and a resolution of the First Nations summit. In the meantime commissioners have been appointed by order in council and summit resolutions. They began their work in December, 1993 and have made considerable progress.

As a member of Parliament who represents 46 First Nations communities I can tell from firsthand experience of the importance of having a process to deal with longstanding grievances and issues of specific land claims and, more important, in B.C.'s case of treaties that have never been signed. It is a major undertaking of tremendous importance, probably more important than anything the B.C. government will have done in the term of its involvement over the past number of years.

There are 47 First Nations involved in the BCTC process to date. They represent over 70 per cent of the First Nations of the province and more are likely to become involved soon. The BCTC has five commissioners. Two are nominated by the First Nations summit, one by the B.C. government and one by Ottawa. The chief commissioner is selected and appointed by consensus of all three partners.

The First Nations summit includes all B.C. First Nations that have agreed to participate in the BCTC process. It provides a forum for those First Nations to meet and discuss treaty negotiations. It worked closely with Ottawa and the provinces to develop the treaty negotiation process and to establish the BCTC. As one of the partners in the process it continues to provide direction.

In Kenora-Rainy River, no different than in B.C., we have our treaties: treaty 3, treaty 9 and treaty 5. The minister responsible for Indian and northern affairs has also undertaken some significant changes to the lives of First Nations people and has tried to improve the affairs of individual communities by getting involved and trying to deal with First Nations and specific land claims.

From firsthand experience, in order for us to get involved in what is most important, the next generation, the economics and the social well-being of First Nations for the years to come, these land claims and these processes must work.

To get into the next century with some hope and aspiration for the young First Nation people not only in my riding but across the country and in B.C. we will have to assure them the grievances of the past will be rectified in order to get on with the future.

I, like many others who represent First Nations, have had roadblocks. I have had First Nations people tell me they are frustrated and fed up. They are not willing to wait much longer. They no longer want the federal or provincial governments to sit on their hands while they wait for a miracle. They would like that process to start.

I take this opportunity to tell the House, the people of Kenora-Rainy River and the people of B.C. that they can thank the government and the minister responsible for moving an agenda which from the last term was basically stalled or going in reverse. We are now starting to see some significant improvement for all the hard work and efforts of not only the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development but the chiefs and councils of the First Nations.

B.C. will be dealing with a six stage treaty. In this negotiation process the stages something like this: a statement of intent; preparation for negotiations; negotiation of a framework agreement; negotiation of agreement in principle; treaty finalization; treaty implementation.

The commission will assess the readiness of parties to negotiate. This involves ensuring the First Nations have the resources needed to make their case and ensuring the federal and provincial governments have struck regional advisory committees so that the local non-aboriginal residents have a voice.

This brings me to a very important point and the obvious wisdom of the positions of the government and the First Nations of the involvement and the voice of non-aboriginal residents. I will use an example of a community in my riding which is over 50 per cent aboriginal. Sioux Lookout is thought by a lot of people to be a non-aboriginal community but it does have a lot of aboriginal people. It would like to participate when we get involved in specific land claim policies and negotiations with First Nations so that when the agreements are made there is a recognition that all of us, native and non-native, will be able to live with the results.

Therefore it is very important that advisory committees are set up with local non-aboriginal residents to give them a voice so we can be assured that in the end the agreements we get will be a win-win situation and not win-lose or lose-win.

I commend again the individuals who put in this process in B.C. because with it I think the results will be much longer lasting than if this process did not have non-aboriginal people in it.

These regional committees in B.C. are part of an extensive commitment to keep the public and all other affected parties informed of developments and to make sure that advice from all sectors of B.C. society are considered. Other efforts include news letters, public meetings, an 800 number, speaking engagements, information brochures, other publications and participation in trade shows.

The BCTC also allocates loans to enable First Nations to fully participate in the process. In other words, it works in partnership with all parties to ensure that the job gets done properly.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Labour, but he will have 10 minutes remaining the next time the matter is called.

It now being 5.30 p.m., the House will proceed to consideration of private members' business as listed on today's Order Paper.

The House resumed from June 20, 1995, consideration of the motion that, in the opinion of this House, the government should support the undertaking of a country-wide program of improving the treatment of municipal sewage to a minimum standard of at least that of primary treatment facilities, and of the amendment of Mrs. Guay.

Treatment Of Municipal Sewage

[Bernard St-Laurent, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great interest that I rise today to debate Motion M-425 brought forward by the member for Comox-Alberni. In this motion, my colleague proposes that the water we use be treated at the primary level instead of being discharged directly into the environment, as is the case today.

In developed and industrialized regions, pollution has altered the natural quality of this valuable resource. Because of growing urbanization and because of the obvious inadequacy of our sewage treatment facilities, we have to worry about the quality of the large quantity of water we consume daily.

Not only is water a necessity of life, but it also contributes to our quality of life. I am very aware of this fact when I look at my riding, the riding of Manicouagan, that borders the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Water is the principal driving force in my region. This natural resource has attracted several industries employing a large number of workers to this area.

Unlike many other vital resources, water has no substitute in most of the activities and processes where it is required, both in industry and in nature. Yet, despite its increasing scarcity and despite the fact that, over the last few years, we have become aware of the seriousness of the water pollution problem, we have not taken the necessary measures to deal with it.

Everyone agrees that our current sewage treatment systems will have to be modernized. I support the motion brought forward by the member for Comox-Alberni because it is clear that our waste water needs a minimum amount of treatment. We cannot go on thinking that we can discharge sewage directly into our lakes and rivers without harming the environment.

Sewage treatment systems are essential to the social and economic functioning of modern communities. The major part of polluted waste found in water comes from sewage and municipal sewage treatment installations and from numerous industries which use those installations to dispose of their waste.

In the last ten years or so, the growing awareness of environmental issues has sparked considerable interest for the protection of waterways. Provinces and municipalities have therefore been spending tremendous amounts of money to develop protection programs for those resources. Motion M-425 proposes a national program. Yet, it has always been clear that municipalities are responsible for providing drinking water, sewage treatment and waste disposal services.

The motion proposes federal interference in a provincial jurisdiction, which is of course totally unacceptable for the Bloc Quebecois. I wonder if the author of this motion is aware of the danger of allowing the federal government to impose its own standards on municipalities.

Motion M-425 proposes that the federal government establish a nationwide program of improving the treatment of municipal sewage to the point of meeting a minimum national standard. In the area of environment, the federal government has always had a tendency to centralize power in Ottawa, supposedly because of the national interest the need to modernize environmental programs.

Yet, under the constitution, environment is not explicitly the jurisdiction of one level of government more than another.

The courts have declared it what is termed an ancillary power, derived from the areas of jurisdiction allocated to each government. Even before the mid-eighties the government of Quebec, which has exclusive jurisdiction over matters of a local or territorial nature, played a lead role in environmental matters, an area over which it was for the most part responsible.

The federal government was satisfied at that time, as set out in the constitution, with intervening in complementary areas. It was only in later years that it began to interfere in environmental matters. As soon as that happened, duplication and overlap began to crop up increasingly, moreover. This has been perpetuated and

aggravated since the election of the present Liberal government, which is attempting to centralize decision making in Ottawa, with all due deference to my colleague from Glengarry-Prescott-Russell. The truth is not always easy to hear, but there you are.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the present government, regardless of what it says, is seeking to centralize and concentrate power in Ottawa still further. Under a federal regime, there must of necessity be a division of areas of jurisdiction. In Canada, however, such a division often leads to inefficiency. At this very moment, there is a need for the federal government to enter into administrative agreements with the provinces. The current situation simply clouds the issue and makes it extremely difficult to identify who is really responsible if a policy does not bring results. Are we to blame the federal government, the author of the standards, or the provincial government, which may have been remiss in implementing those standards?

Since Canada maintains that it has jurisdiction over some areas of the environment because of the so-called national interest, this means it is in a position to enter into international agreements and to find global solutions along with its partners. Why then could the provinces not do the same with each other and with a sovereign Quebec?

The inefficiency of a system in which responsibility is not clearly identified lies in wasted energy due to duplication and is certainly not any guarantee of sustainable development. In fact, under the current federal system it would be unthinkable to guarantee any kind of sustainable development, since the government in Ottawa seems to have an abiding tendency to centralize powers and to interfere with matters that are the sole responsibility of the provinces.

Although Quebec recognizes the very real concern we should have for the environment, it is not prepared to let the federal government once again intrude in an area over which it has no jurisdiction. Responsibility for municipal sewage lies clearly with the provinces and the municipalities.

The Bloc Quebecois will vote against this motion, not because it is against protecting the environment, and I would like to say that we appreciate the good intentions of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni. As I said, the Bloc would vote against the motion, and it will do so not because it is against protecting the environment but rather because it believes that the environment is better protected when each government deals with the problems for which it is responsible, so that it can set priorities that make sense and as a result be truly effective.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I too am pleased to participate this afternoon in this debate on Motion M-425.

Notwithstanding what we just heard-and I am not sure that the motion has this much importance in a sense-I must say that the remarks that were just made do not reflect what I would call the truth.

First, the motion before the House says that the government should support the undertaking-it says support, it does not say establish it themselves-support the undertaking of a country-wide program of improving the treatment of municipal sewage to a minimum standard of at least that of primary treatment facilities. The motion does not even talk about establishing one national standard, as was alleged by the hon. member from the Bloc Quebecois. Second, it is totally false to allege that it does anything else, which the member has also indicated.

Second, there is an amendment, and I wonder whether it is really in order. It must be in order if the Chair accepted it. I must tell you that this amendment has no connection with the main issue, since it deals with a right for all provinces to financial compensation. One has nothing to do with the other.

The motion simply calls upon the federal government to support certain initiatives to guarantee a minimum level of waste water treatment. That is all this motion is about.

Once again, today, the Bloc Quebecois was caught in this House making things up and stretching the truth to an incredible extent.

Sir Winston Churchill once said that the opposite to the truth had never been stated with greater accuracy. I guess one could apply that to the speech the House just heard with respect to what the intention of the motion really is.

I want to speak a bit about the infrastructure program. We get mixed messages from Reform MPs on infrastructure. The motion by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni invites the federal government to support infrastructure programs concerning sewers and the like. I have to admit that we have been getting mixed messages from Reform Party MPs on that subject. Come to think of it, we have been getting mixed messages from the Reform Party on just about every issue.

I have an editorial from the Ottawa Citizen , the valley edition, of August 14, 1994, which speaks of the Reform Party position on infrastructure. It is entitled Reform Sings the Blues'' and states thatThe Reform Party seems to have changed its tune after advocating the nurturing of infrastructure before the election''.

It works something like this. Before the election the Reform Party was in favour of ameliorating the infrastructure and of the federal government supporting it. After the election Reformers started criticizing this. You might ask what is wrong with that, after all, they are Reformers and it should be expected that they will contradict themselves every now and then. That might be true, but there is a certain limit beyond which it becomes odd, even for Reformers.

We have the spectacle of the hon. member for Simcoe Centre. That is a spectacle if I ever saw one. He wrote a letter regarding an infrastructure program in his riding. I want all my colleagues to know it was a coincidence that it was in his riding. The letter, which was to the President of the Treasury Board, stated: "I am writing to further offer my strong support for the project because of the significant job creation this project will provide. One of the main objectives of the infrastructure program is to promote public and private sector partnerships that will not only improve the local and regional economic climate, but also will help Canada as a whole to attract corporations by providing prime business opportunity" and so on.

That was the hon. member for Simcoe Centre, who was at that time writing in praise of an infrastructure program that just happened to be located in his riding. After that was over the same member-

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We are supposed to be discussing the amendment that was put forward by the hon. member for Laurentides. What the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell is talking about now has no relevance to the amendment. I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that he would speak to the amendment.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The member is referring to the standing order regarding relevance. I am sure the hon. member will make his remarks relevant, if that was not the case, very soon.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the motion is in regard to supporting infrastructure programs. The amendment refers only to how one should fund these infrastructure programs. Of course the member for Simcoe Centre was writing in support of funding an infrastructure program which is exactly what the amendment is about.

Let us get back to the member for Simcoe Centre because I like him a lot. The member for Simcoe Centre in commenting to a reporter said "of other infrastructure programs". By coincidence, these other projects were not in his riding, but here is what he said about them. Remember, let us not be cynical. These other projects to which I am going to refer were in someone else's riding. He said

about those: "It is not infrastructure; it is a make work project. They talk about the short term jobs this is creating but those jobs can be anywhere from one day to one month". He was explaining how these things were wrong, among them renovating the coliseum in Edmonton and building facilities and arenas elsewhere.

All those other arenas were wrong but the arena in Barrie was right. It just happens to be in the riding of the member for Simcoe Centre. It was worthy of support and all the praise I brought to the attention of the House a moment ago. It constituted all those virtuous things I described to the House, such as promoting public and private sector partnerships, and so on.

How could that be? How could it be that infrastructure projects are worthy when they are in the hon. member's riding but virtually identical projects in someone else's riding are not worthy of similar praise? I am sure there is a reasonable explanation for this and we will hear it soon.

Let us talk about the infrastructure works program. The city of Calgary has put out a publication on the Canada-Alberta infrastructure works program. It is called "Calgary at Work". Calgary of course is where the ridings of the leader of the Reform Party and other Reform members are located. I wonder if they will pay attention to this because we might ask them questions later. The publication "Calgary at Work" lauds all the virtues of the infrastructure program and all the things that have been done in Calgary. Here are some of the things-

[Dale Johnston, Reform, Wetaskiwin, AB]

A point of order, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you could confirm quorum.

[The Deputy Speaker]

There is not a quorum.

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Pursuant to Standing Order 29(4), I would ask those members present to approach the table and have their names recorded in the journal.

Pursuant to Standing Order 29(3), as we do not have a quorum, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

(There being only 13 members present, including the Deputy Speaker, the names were written down, and the House adjourned at 6.03 p.m.)