House of Commons Hansard #151 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.

Topics

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, the minister of agriculture and the government have been aware of this problem and have acted with all the haste possible in order to fix the problem.

Hon. members opposite only learned about this problem from a television program. The people on this side of the House were aware of it before it was televised and publicized.

This government believes that in order to get an effective settlement and an effective solution we need to discuss these types of issues with all of the stakeholders involved. There are many people who will be affected by the changes which are being brought forward. The government and the minister of agriculture needed to have full discussion with these people to devise the best solution possible for the people of Canada.

People on this side of the House believe in consultation and long term effective solutions, not solutions which will come unravelled overnight because of lack of preparation and lack of thought, which is what the Reform Party would like to see happen.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Reform

Jake Hoeppner Reform Lisgar—Marquette, MB

Mr. Speaker, the Western Grain Transportation Act was instituted in 1984. This loophole has been there for 12 years and the government knew about it. Why did it have to wait this long?

I would suggest that special interest groups had a lot to do with it because the railways were milking the system, the grain companies were milking the system, and the cow has gone dry. We have a debt problem and finally we are starting to realize it.

I would like to ask the hon. member why the government did not realize this faster when the problem was there 10 years ago.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

In 1984 there was a different government in place, one that you no doubt supported. With respect, our minister of agriculture has moved forcefully and quickly in bringing people together to get a solution that is going to work for all Canadian taxpayers, including the Canadian farmers.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Mr. Speaker, clause 2 of this very short bill deals with the issue of allowing under the WGTA for demurrage and storage charges for grain that is being stored on rail cars to be levied against the railway. How does the hon. member opposite see this being implemented? Will it be used? If so, how often?

We know that rail cars are used for storage in many cases and certainly the system is not efficient. There is an average turnaround time of 20 days or more, the same as 80 years ago. How does the hon. member see this part of the bill being used to ensure quicker turnaround and more efficiency in the rail system?

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, the portion of the bill dealing with demurrage and storage charges will encourage the rail companies to utilize the grain cars to move the grain as opposed to letting it sit there, storing them, or leaving the cars sitting around.

There have been many problems identified on this issue. Each one of these little pieces goes together to make for a more efficient grain system. That is what the minister has set out to achieve. That is what he will achieve by utilizing this type of system to encourage the people to move the grain. It is better for us to pay for grain to be moved than pay to have it sit.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to take part in this debate on Bill C-66, an act to amend the Western Grain Transportation Act.

As the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food has already indicated, this bill covers short term amendments aimed at addressing inefficiencies that have been identified in our grain transportation and handling system.

Specifically, Bill C-66 would authorize the railways to implement demurrage, car storage charges, and despatch. It would also eliminate the WGTA subsidy on grain movement to Mexico and end the practice of routing U.S. bound grain to Thunder Bay and backhauling it to Fort Frances or Winnipeg before finally sending it into the United States.

Until now the railways' inability to levy demurrage charges or car storage charges has led to the use of rail cars for storage purposes, as was just stated by the member across the floor. It obviously reduces the efficiency and effectiveness of the grain car fleet. We do not know where our cars are. They are all over the place. They could be in the United States. They could be anywhere. We end up putting more cars into the system.

As a result, we need more cars to move our grain than what we should need. The backtracking practice has evolved because it is cheaper for a shipper to send U.S. bound grain to Thunder Bay in order to qualify for the WGTA subsidy and then backhaul it to Fort Frances or Winnipeg before it is moved at commercial rates to destinations in the United States than it would be to ship it directly at commercial rates.

Using Winnipeg as a reference point, this practice increases the length of grain haul by about 450 miles over CN lines and about 860 miles over CP tracks. This practice is clearly inefficient and results in longer car cycle times and less effective use of the grain car fleet. In the 1993-94 crop year, 1.1 million tonnes of grain were shipped to the U.S. via this scenic route.

Regarding the removal of the WGTA subsidy on wheat shipments to Mexico, we expect that the amendments in this bill will resolve the current countervailing duty investigation in Mexico and ensure our continued access to an important market for Canada.

It is important to note that these proposed changes are short term amendments only. They are not intended to replace comprehensive reform of the WGTA. I should also point out that they have received widespread industry support.

In fact, these changes were suggested by and have support in principle from the subcommittees of the House standing committees on transportation and agriculture and agri-food, as well as the May 16 group which includes representatives from grain companies, the railways, labour and management.

Both of those forums have suggested a number of initiatives to reduce inefficiencies, improve the capability of the grain transportation and handling system and facilitate the movement of grain to markets. Many of their suggestions have been implemented. However, some of the proposed changes require legislation, hence the bill we are debating here today.

The government would like to proceed with these short term amendments now in order to eliminate the subsidy on wheat to Mexico as soon as possible and to ensure that demurrage and backtracking issues are dealt with before the 1995-96 crop year which begins August 1, 1995.

As I indicated earlier, there was agreement in principle to eliminate these inefficient practices. After further consultations, a consensus emerged among the May 16 group that the WGTA amendments should take effect at the beginning of the crop year. The group favoured this timing because it would allow time for grain marketers and shippers to adjust sales and supply programs accordingly.

It is important to note that although August 1 has been selected as the implementation date for some of these changes, the amendments dealing with demurrage, storage charges and despatch as well as backtracking could be implemented earlier if the government is satisfied that there is sufficient agreement

between the railways and the shippers on the commercial details of the changes.

I would like to make it clear that this proposed legislation in no way lessens this government's commitment to making decisions on broader WGTA reform in the near future. The passage of this legislation will enable the government to continue with the consultations that are so vital to the development of the long term solutions for problems in our grain handling system. At the same time, it will address the immediate problems which members of government and industry representing the grain companies, the railways, labour and management have identified.

Members of the House, I ask for your support in the rapid passage of this legislation. The measures proposed by Bill C-66 will help make Canada's grain transportation more efficient and better able to meet the needs of our customers around the world.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Jake Hoeppner Reform Lisgar—Marquette, MB

Mr. Speaker, I always enjoy the hon. member's comments. We have served on the standing committee for awhile and I have always appreciated him and know he is also a good farmer.

The only thing I am surprised at is that he forgets we have calendars. There was a crop year on August 1, 1994. In the spring of that year the standing committee stated that it should be stopped, that it was illegal and it was costing us money. I would suggest that if this government is not going to work faster in implementing legislation, some day in the hon. member's chicken business all the eggs will be hatched and nobody will have eggs for breakfast, putting his whole industry in jeopardy.

I hope he will urge the minister to move a little faster because we need some action. I wonder how he would comment on that because this has been delayed a whole year.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Mr. Speaker, they are making poultry jokes here.

In all my years as a farmer, and I grew up on a farm and have been actively farming since 1973, I know the hon. member across the floor who shares the same background in agriculture that I do knows that haste makes waste. If you are going to fix it, fix it right the first time because the second time it costs you a lot of money.

Basically what we are saying right now is that the railways, the shippers and the wheat board all have to become responsive to the changes we are making.

The challenge through you, Mr. Speaker-I do not want you to feel like the Maytag repairman-is that we have to look at how wheat is hauled down into the United States and the rate that is applied to it. Is it going to cost the same to move a car of potash into the United States as what it does to move a carload of wheat into the United States? We have to watch that.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

John Williams Reform St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, earlier on you talked about relevance. We have been into poultry and now we are into potash. I thought we were talking about moving grain down into the United States and Mexico.

The member's comment was that by stopping this movement of grain back and forth from Thunder Bay it was going to eliminate the countervailing duty investigation by Mexico. I ask myself, how on earth can we do this to ourselves? How can we pay to move grain to Thunder Bay, move it back to the prairies on subsidized lines and find out that because we do that Mexico is going to investigate us for subsidizing grain? Whereas if we stop shooting ourselves in the foot there is no subsidy and we can put it down to the United States more efficiently, as they admit, in a more timely fashion, as they admit, and the whole market system would just work so much better.

I cannot imagine why the government is trying to mess up the whole market system entirely through these rules which just make no sense whatsoever. I still come back to this concept of why it takes so long. I thought when this bill was passed that it would come into force. Now I find out it will not be until August 1.

Can the member please explain to me why it is going to take another six or eight months before it comes into effect? Why would we subsidize grain that-I am at a loss for words, but I want to know why we are going to wait until August.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am very heartened to hear that the Reform Party across the floor is going to support us in the speedy passage of the amendments to the WGTA. It heartens me greatly.

The member has already said, which I agree with, that it does not make sense to transport grain to Thunder Bay and back to Winnipeg and down into the United States. We have to make sure we find the most effective way to ship it down at the best price. We want to make sure that the railway companies are honest about this. Also we want to make sure that Mexico does not look on WGTA the same way it looks on the export enhancement program. I think we are going to avoid it with the amendments.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the hon. member opposite.

I congratulate the transport minister for bringing these changes forward. We have been pushing for these exact changes since we started meeting in the agriculture committee and in the House. Of course we will support these measures but we would have supported them a year ago more happily.

How does the hon. member see the demurrage charges and the storage charges that are allowed now under the second clause in this bill used? There certainly is a need for this measure, but how is this government going to use them? Is it going to use them? The powers are there in the WGTA right now and they are not used. Will they be used now?

Mr. Speaker, I suppose you are not going to let me ask my questions about the Canadian Wheat Board. Are are going to rule them irrelevant? I will not ask those then.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the reason for the demurrage and the storage charges for these rail cars is the fact that they were being used before as rolling warehouses with no charge attached.

With the demurrage and storage charges now it will make the shippers much more responsible to make sure they get those cars in, get them unloaded, get them back out on the track and heading back to-

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Thunder Bay.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

-be filled up with more wheat. It is a more efficient way of doing it. If there is a cost penalty behind it, it is another incentive to make it work better.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think you would find unanimous consent to call it 6.30 p.m.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is there unanimous agreement in the House for calling it 6.30 p.m.?

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Western Grain Transportation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 6 p.m., as there are no members available unfortunately for the late show, as it is referred to, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

(House adjourned at 6.02 p.m.)