Debates of Feb. 16th, 1995

Privilege

[The Speaker]

I am now ready to rule on a question of privilege by the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, which he raised first on November 2, 1994 and then again on February 8, 1995.

On November 2 the member rose to complain that during question period the previous day the Deputy Prime Minister had breached confidentiality by quoting from a letter which the member had written on behalf of a constituent to the Minister of Canadian Heritage. He contended that by revealing the contents of this letter without his permission the Deputy Prime Minister had interfered with his ability to carry out his duties. He argued that his constituents would now wonder whether or not matters on which they sought his assistance could be kept confidential.

The Deputy Prime Minister responded that the letter was part of the public record of the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission.

On February 8, 1995 the hon. member again rose on a question of privilege to state that new information had come to light on the same matter. He explained that the constituent on whose behalf he had written had received a letter from the manager of correspondence and complaints at the CRTC. In that letter the constituent was advised that under the terms of the Privacy Act,

unless she requested otherwise, the hon. member's letter, sent on her behalf, and any other correspondence related to her complaint would become part of the licensee's publicly accessible file in early January.

The hon. member now argues that contrary to the statement of the Deputy Prime Minister his letter was not in fact a public document when the Deputy Prime Minister quoted from it last November and again requested that I review the matter.

The chief government whip then intervened and argued that what was at issue was a question of law and that the Speaker does not rule on such matters. He also added that if the hon. Member had a complaint with the CRTC, there were other avenues by which he could pursue it.

Let me first address the matter of whether or not the member's letter to the Minister of Canadian Heritage was a public document and therefore able to be quoted from in debate. Beauchesne's Sixth Edition, page 151, citation 495(7) states:

When a letter, even though it may have been written originally as a private letter, becomes part of a record of a department, it becomes a public document, and if quoted by a Minister in debate, must be tabled on request.

From this, I must conclude that the letter from the hon. member to the minister was in fact a public document and therefore could be quoted from in the House.

It is not for me to decide whether or not, as the Deputy Prime Minister stated, the letter was part of the public record of the CRTC. The application of the Privacy Act and the laws and policies governing CRTC dossiers are beyond my purview. As my predecessors have repeatedly ruled, it is not now, nor has it ever been, the role of the Speaker to rule on questions of law. This has been a longstanding practice and I draw members' attention to Bourinot's Parliamentary Procedure and Practice in the Dominion of Canada , Fourth Edition, 1916 at page 180 which reads that the Speaker:

-will not give a decision upon a constitutional question nor decide a question of law, though the same be raised on a point of order or privilege.

This is also repeated in citation 168(5) of Beauchesne's sixth edition, 1989.

On matters of privilege, it is up to the House to decide whether or not a member's privileges have been breached. The Speaker must be persuaded that there is some evidence that a member has been hindered in the performance of his or her parliamentary duties, before putting the question to the whole House for determination.

Having carefully reviewed the procedural authorities and the interventions of hon. members, I must conclude that in the case before us there is no prima facie question of privilege.

I thank all hon. members for their contribution to this decision.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-68, an act respecting firearms and other weapons, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Firearms Act

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I understand there was some time left in the question and comment period for the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment. I believe the member for Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia had the floor.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I had digressed to the question of the political flip-flop of the Association of Police Chiefs on the question of the registration of guns. However, I would like to pursue my original debate with the hon. member for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis.

He has at rather great length discussed the causes of domestic violence and suicide in the home as it relates to the registration of firearms. I fail to see, and I have tried very hard to understand, how a registered gun is any less lethal than an unregistered gun. If we want to solve the problem of domestic violence leading to death or of suicide with firearms, there is only one way it can be done. That is by totally disarming the civilian population.

I would ask the hon. member if that is his vision of Canada.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lachine—Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was really interested in hearing the hon. member before question period when he contrasted the styles of the Minister of Justice who spoke in calm tones and mine with very passionate, emotional tones.

In this party we are individuals. We have different styles, different ways of expressing ourselves, different points of view sometimes. That is what makes a democratic party. I do not see why we should not speak with passion. I feel very passionately about this issue. I feel passionately about it because guns kill. They cause death and injury. We should do whatever we can to be on the side of caution. That is what Bill C-68 is all about.

I would remind the hon. member that there are an estimated five million rifles and shotguns in Canada. Nobody knows who owns them. Over the past 20 years 62,000 guns have been stolen and not recovered. Over 3,000 a year are lost and nobody knows where they are.

A registration system makes it easier for police control, for people in charge of legal control to trace possessions. This is why we register cars and boats. When they get stolen or burglarized people can trace them.

Today the Reform Party is challenging us to prove without any fear of contradiction, with 100 per cent certainty, that registration will be watertight or statistically proven. We have suggested that there is a whole body of opinion relating to crime. The police chiefs association, the Canadian Association of Police, the Canadian Bar Association, the Canadian Crime Association all tell us that registration will have an impact on at least controlling the guns that flow across the borders unregistered, unknown.

Surely it is worse, the precautionary principle. Where is common sense? Where is the fact that we should use caution when it comes to lives? The onus should be on us to show we have taken every possible action to ensure life is protected.

If registration would save one life-according to all the experts it will save many lives-then of course registration is possible. We have a duty as a government to do it. Bill C-68 is awaited by a great majority of Canadians. Eighty-eight per cent of Canadians in the Angus Reid poll say they are for registration, including a majority all across Canada. In some provinces it is up to 95 per cent, in another, 69 per cent. Every western province is for it.

Therefore, Bill C-68 is a big step forward. It is a reflection of what the majority of Canadians want. I am very pleased it is here. I will support it with great conviction.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to listen to the rhetoric flow, having it interfaced with an appeal to common sense. That is what we ask for, to see some common sense in the gun legislation in this country. The hon. member mentioned there are estimates which range from five million to as high as 12 million firearms and long guns unregistered in the country.

The registration of handguns has been in effect since 1934. We have had 60 years of registration and it has done nothing to prevent criminals from acquiring and using handguns for criminal purposes.

I ask the hon. member for a succinct answer, if possible, because I know his time is up. How will registration of long guns be more successful than the registration of handguns has been?

He also mentioned experts who say that registration will work and that "it will save countless numbers of lives" I believe was the term. Name the experts. We would love to know who the experts are who claim that registration will save lives.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lachine—Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I said it would save lives. If it saves just one life it would be worth it. They never talk about life over there. They talk about guns. They do not talk about human life. That is really what this bill is about.

The member makes the point that the registration of handguns has been in place since 1934 and it still permits criminals to use handguns. What would happen if there was no registration of handguns? Would there not be more crime?

If the registration system needs improving, then let us improve it. Today we have computers, all kinds of technical means to ensure that a registration system is far better than the one that was set up many years ago. This is the opportunity to do it. We have the technological means to set up a proper registration system. It will take time but the minister has allowed for that in the bill. Once it is set up it will be a modern, up to date registration system which may filter into the communities and which hopefully will involve the community at large, the grassroots. It will be far better than the system we now have, which is no system.

If the handgun registration system is not perfect, then let us perfect it. But at least it is a step toward caution, toward saving lives.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate at second reading of Bill C-68, An Act respecting firearms and other weapons, which was tabled on February 14, 1995, by the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

That legislation, which was promised a long time ago by the Liberal government, and the tabling of which was postponed on several occasions, amends the Criminal Code and includes a new Firearms Act. It provides harsh sanctions for crimes committed with a firearm, as well as a system of registration certificates and a national firearms registration system.

This dense, complex and technical piece of legislation of 132 pages, with no explanatory notes, will give effect to the measures announced on November 30 by the minister. The delay in the tabling of that bill can only be explained by the considerable opposition it has stirred in the ranks of the Liberal Party. Over 30 Liberal members will vote against that bill, including the member for Timiskaming-French River, the member for Kenora-Rainy River. Some ministers are also said to have strong reservations about the new legislation.

I hope that these dissenting members will have an opportunity to express their views in this House, so that we get an idea of just how divided the Liberals are on this issue. The hon. member for

Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis, who just made a good speech, should use his persuasiveness to convince his colleagues to support this legislation.

Bill C-68 proposes several measures, including: the establishment of a national firearms registration system; a minimum jail sentence of four years for violent crimes committed with a firearm, as well as a prohibition to ever own a restricted or prohibited weapon; the inclusion of new Criminal Code offences with harsh penalties for the illegal importation and traffic of firearms; measures to tighten controls at the Canadian border-this morning, the minister mentioned that a very large number of firearms are imported into Canada each year-, and a prohibition to import and sell .25 and .32 calibre handguns, as well as handguns equipped with a barrel of 105mm or less.

Individuals who do not acquire a licence or a certificate within the time prescribed could be sentenced, under the Criminal Code, to a maximum of six months in jail, or to a fine of up to $2,000. The weapons license is renewable every five years at a cost of $60. The registration certificate will be valid for life, unless the weapon is sold or transferred. Once the system is in place, the license will be mandatory for the purchase of ammunition.

Control of firearms has caused and continues to cause heated debate. Those in favour of control are demanding, among other things, more stringent regulation, that all weapons be registered, and that certain types of firearms be prohibited.

On the other hand, the weapons industry is angry at having to submit to new restrictions. It will therefore intensify its pressure in strongly opposing this bill. We of the Bloc Quebecois have always held that there must be legislation in this area in order to better control firearms.

In my opinion, it will also help resolve the crime problem. I also realize that more restrictive gun control alone cannot resolve the crime problem. We must reconcile the right of individuals to protect themselves against violence with the legitimate interests of weapons' owners, including hunters.

It must be pointed out that the minister resisted the pressure of the powerful gun lobby. Universal registration of firearms is a positive measure. It will encourage owners to find ways to store them safely.

Reactions to the bill in Canada and in Quebec are divided. However, I think most of the country, including the people in my riding of Bourassa, in Montreal North, support the broad lines of the bill. Therefore, I believe this bill, despite many gaps and shortcomings, is a step in the right direction.

Among the measures contained in this bill, the registration of all firearms is the most seriously disputed. Under the administrative control of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, this measure should be implemented in conjunction with the provinces and territories. We will keep an eye on co-operation between the RCMP and the Government of Quebec. In Quebec, where at least one firearm offence is committed daily, the police must use stronger measures to effectively counter the criminal use of firearms.

In my province, 400 to 450 deaths are caused by firearms every year, about 300 of which are suicides. This is why the health care community, in particular, has been calling for registration of all firearms for a long time. We must remember that in Quebec firearms have been registered since 1972, but the registration system must be improved.

I have serious reservations about several measures in the bill, especially in regard to registration procedures and costs. The national registration system is not self-financed, something which the Bloc Quebecois has been demanding for a long time. The justice minister has merely mentioned that implementing this system will cost $85 million over seven years. But he has not said where he got these figures, how he arrived at this amount. In addition, I believe the cost will be much higher than what the minister has calculated.

Moreover, we believe the minister and his government have given in to the powerful progun lobby by allowing a period of eight years for the registration of gun owners and their weapons.

Mr. Speaker, as you know, I am Chilean by birth. I came here following the military coup in 1973. Chile was a peaceful country; Pinochet's dictature brought total insecurity. When my wife, my children and I came to Montreal in 1974, we most cherished the safety of this country's cities and streets.

However, I was shaken by the tragedy of December 6, 1989, when 14 young women lost their lives at l'École polytechnique de Montréal, at the hand of a misogynist murderer. Marc Lépine used a Luger rifle. The incident spurred a major movement in Quebec and Canada in favour of increasing firearm controls and it heightened awareness of the daily violence that women are subjected to in our society.

I was personally affected by the tragic incident five years ago because one of my goddaughters was studying at l'École polytechnique during the incident but, fortunately, did not get shot.

The bill outlaws the sale of all weapons like the one used by Marc Lépine. At the time, close to three out of four Canadians felt that the massacre of the 14 students at l'École polytechnique demonstrated the need for tighter gun controls.

Women, seniors and Quebecers in general were and are the three groups most in favour of legislative action to restrict the sale of weapons. According to figures from Statistics Canada, between 1978 and 1982, 37 per cent of all murders were committed with firearms. Of the 6,465 crimes committed between 1978 and 1987, 33 per cent were committed using a firearm.

The minister said that on the average, every six days a woman dies from a gunshot wound in Canada. The situation is therefore very serious. However, in my opinion, the minister is afraid to really get to the heart of it. He should have tabled a tougher bill. He extends until the 21st century the time limit for those who currently owner firearms to get a certificate in compliance with the minister's action plan.

He has committed the sin of omission on many points in his bill. The Minister of Justice did not pay enough attention to coroner Anne-Marie David's inquest, held in Montreal in the latter part of 1994. Twenty or so witnesses representing various organizations testified about how inconsistent and unclear the regulations were and how the minister's new proposals did not address the problem as a whole.

Government must protect citizens against any fraudulent and dangerous use of firearms. Public safety must be improved by limiting the use of firearms for criminal purposes. I think that all immigrants in Quebec and Canada wish to live in a safe and law-abiding society. I also think that the people do not want Quebec and Canada to become like the United States as far as firearms are concerned.

But at the same time, I would like to see this bill take into consideration the legitimate interests of hunters and farmers. Hunting is a long-standing traditional activity. It is a major leisure and economic activity for many Quebecers and Canadians. Sports shooters have gained international recognition. Many aboriginal people hunt to feed their families. I have nothing against people using weapons for good reasons.

I do not think that in Canada, unlike other countries, we need to be armed to protect ourselves. At least, this is not the kind of society I would like to live in.

[Jesse Flis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Bourassa mentioned that about 30 members on the government side will be voting against the bill. I would suggest that he redo his research because many of the concerns that our members had have been addressed in the latest changes to this bill.

I was pleased to hear from him that he personally will be supporting this bill because, as he said, it was a long time coming. He did comment, though, that the bill did not go quite far enough.

The minister of the environment and wildlife for Quebec stressed that the bill goes too far. I am wondering if he can give us some clarification if this is the same split within his party. He makes a very strong statement that the bill does not go far enough and yet we are hearing another message from that province that the bill has gone too far.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

I hope that the dissent within the Liberal caucus with respect to Bill C-68 is not deep-seated. I accept your explanations, but I still think there are some serious problems about this bill within your caucus.

As I said before, we agree with the general principles of the bill. We are in favour of tighter gun controls, especially in Quebec, where we had the tragic killings at l'École polytechnique in Montreal and where other occurrences have made us very much aware of the problem.

I hope that during consideration of the bill in the Justice Committee, we will be able to take a closer look at this legislation and propose amendments that will make it more effective and give it more teeth, and that will also ensure it will come into force as soon as possible. As the hon. member for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis said earlier with such passionate conviction, I think society in Canada and Quebec absolutely needs this legislation.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member for Bourassa two questions.

The hon. member indicated that he supported the idea of prohibiting the Mini Ruger which was used in the polytechnique massacre. I can support that and understand that assault weapons are off the list. My constituents support that as well. However, someone who is deranged will find a weapon in some way, whether it is registered or not under this current program. He could have used a sawed off shotgun, for example.

The first question is how would registration have stopped that circumstance from actually happening?

The second question is with regard to a remark the hon. member made concerning universal registration. He said it is a good idea because it will encourage owners to store their guns and ammunition safely. The last House of Commons passed Bill C-17 and put into place legislation that required all people in Canada to store their guns and ammunition safely. It has not lowered the crime rate or the illegal use or misuse of firearms in crimes in any way. How can the hon. member say that universal registration is going to make a difference with regard to this?

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, of course there are limits to what we can do. There are mentally disturbed individuals in every society. However, I believe that our goal and the public's goal is to minimize the risk of crimes being committed with firearms.

I do not know whether the weapon used by Marc Lépine was registered, but I think firearms registration will be helpful because we will know who the owner is. In the case of people who are mentally disturbed, I trust they will be denied the right to have a firearms licence.

I think registration is essential to gun control. Of course, if we have a national registration system, we can also ensure safer storage of these firearms. I hope that this bill will help us achieve some of these goals, despite, I repeat, some considerable deficiencies in Bill C-68.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I remember one time being stopped by a policeman for a routine check in my car and in the back seat was a baseball bat. He asked why I had a baseball bat in my car. I said that along with the ball and the glove on the floor of the car, I used it to play with my children. This was a few years ago. He said that was fine, but that if I were carrying it to use as protection or to use against someone it would be a crime to have it in the car.

It seems to me that the intention of the use of a firearm or a hatpin or a hammer or a kitchen knife or a pair of fists is the thrust of what we should be talking about. It is the intention of a person to harm, the deformed will of a person that we should be addressing ourselves to. We cannot stop every threat. When we are told that if we can save even one life, if it were true I would accept that.

If we are so concerned about saving lives, why is the government and why are the people of Canada not more concerned about the technical standards of appliances, of automobiles, of so many of the things we use? Why do we allow smoking? Why are the restrictions on drunken driving not more stringent? This is a red herring.

How will the registration of guns, how will further restrictions on guns and how will this bill on gun control affect the misuse of guns by someone who is determined to cause someone else harm?

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, I believe the national firearms registration system will provide tighter controls over who owns these firearms and where they are stored. I am not alone in this respect.

In my own riding of Bourassa, in Montreal North, 15 per cent of my constituents are senior citizens. I discussed this with them. We had a number of meetings, and I asked them: What do you think about gun control and the bill announced by the Minister of Justice? All senior citizens are in favour of tighter controls because they want to be able to go out, and walk in the park, without fear of being attacked by some crazy person with a gun. And many people would agree.

I spoke to the labour movement, the Canadian Labour Congress, which represents more than two million members in this country, and especially in Quebec, they agree with the broad principles of this bill. I spoke to physicians and health care workers. They also want tighter gun controls in Canada. I think the majority of the people in Canada and Quebec, and in my riding, support the broad principles of this bill.

[Herb Dhaliwal, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I feel that it is a great opportunity for me to speak on the topic of gun control. I hope to talk about some of the concerns expressed by the Reform Party and go through a whole series of situations in terms of support, some of the statistics that support strong gun control.

Let me start with a basic premise on why gun control is good for Canada. Gun control is not simply about controlling guns. It is about public safety. It is about crime prevention.

Do members think-I have asked this question to people often-if we have more guns on the street we will have more crime? Consistently the answer is yes, the more guns we have on the street, the more crime we will have. If you can go out and buy a gun in a local store, do you think we will have more crime? The answer consistently is yes.

Is that not logical? If there are fewer guns on the street and if the government makes it more difficult for people to get more guns, will we not have less crime? My basic premise is if we have fewer guns on the street and those that are there are restricted and managed, we will have a safer society and safer communities.

The other part of it is just the psychological effect, the fact that we know as a society we do not tolerate people having guns, and the fact people know it is illegal to have guns on the street and that we do have restrictions. That will also help in determining that psychologically there is less fear in our society. That is very important as well.

Let me look at the support that this bill has right across this country, whether it be in Alberta, British Columbia or anywhere else. There is tremendous support for this bill. For example, from October 5 to October 25, 1994 Environics Research Group Limited conducted a national survey of Canadian public attitude

toward various gun control measures. The survey reported that 90 per cent supported a law requiring all firearms to be registered.

In British Columbia 88 per cent of the people support strong gun control. In Alberta 83 per cent of the people support gun control. Virtually all Canadians, 96 per cent, support increased penalties for the use of a firearm during the commission of a crime. Part of that bill also increases the crime whenever a firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

Seventy-five per cent wanted restricted access to ammunition. Sixty-seven per cent supported a law preventing civilians from owning handguns.

There is a whole list of the polls done. It goes on and on. I could probably go on. There was a survey done in Alberta recently which said that 64 per cent of Albertans support a national firearms registry.

This was a poll done by Alberta's minister of justice, Mr. Evans, who said that he was surprised by the results of this poll. An Angus Reid poll was done in the fall of 1994 in which 70 per cent of Canadians favoured tougher gun controls.

I can go on and on and cite more polls but it is pretty evident that Canadians support strong gun control. If one looks at the groups that are supporting gun control, there are incredible groups that are saying they want gun control.

For example, on August 25, 1994 at its 89th annual conference the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police passed six resolutions that support strengthened firearms control measures. Mayors of B.C., mayors of some of the people in the Reform Party, said they want stricter gun control. Eighteen mayors throughout British Columbia representing 1.7 million people said they want stronger gun control. This is coming from the mayors of municipalities.

It is quite evident that groups right across Canada, whether it is the mayors, the Canadian police chiefs or other groups including community groups, have said they want stricter gun control. As the Reform Party always says, we are listening to those Canadians. We are listening and we are responding. We believe we need to listen. The difficulty for Reform Party members is that if they do not support this bill, they will be against the majority in their own ridings that wants stricter gun controls.

I know we have to be careful in using statistics because they can be used in misleading ways. I want to share some statistics with the Canadian public. A recent survey showed that guns were used in 42 per cent of murders of women by their spouses. One woman in Canada is killed with a gun every six days. Most often she is killed in her own home and almost always she is killed by someone she knows. That is quite a revealing statistic.

There is another statistic that we should look at closely. Over 80 per cent of the rifles and shotguns were legally owned at the time of the shooting. Is that not an incredible statistic? The members of the third party say: "It is the criminals that are committing the crimes". It shows that over 80 per cent of the rifles and shotguns were legally owned by those people at the time of the shooting. What does that tell us? It sends a very strong message when 80 per cent of the rifles and shotguns were legally owned at the time of the shooting. We have to take action.

In 1991 there were a total of 1,445 deaths involving firearms. Of those, 19 per cent were homicides, 4 per cent were accidental deaths and 77 per cent were suicides. In 1992, 26 per cent of all robberies involved firearms. This represents a gradual decline since 1977 when it was 39 per cent, the year before stricter gun control measures were passed by Parliament.

As the result of stricter gun controls we have cut robberies down from 39 per cent to 26 per cent. We heard the same arguments in 1977 when the Liberal government, proposed by Minister Ron Basford, passed legislation on stricter gun control. The same arguments are coming out. In looking back the statistics show we did the right thing. In 15 or 20 years we will look back and say we did the right thing now as well.

In 1992 there were 732 homicides. Of those 732, 34 per cent were committed with firearms. That is a serious problem.

We can compare our gun laws with those in other countries. Unfortunately we do not have a comprehensive study that compares countries that have stricter gun controls and those that have less restrictions.

We do have one very comprehensive study that took the example of two cities which were within a 100 to 150 mile radius. The study looked at what happens in crime in those two cities. The two cities were Seattle and Vancouver, the city which I am from and represent, Vancouver South. It looked at these two cities because there were a lot of similarities in geography, climate, make-up and population. It was a study done between 1980 through 1986 in order to investigate the associations among handgun regulations, assaults and other crimes, as well as homicides.

The two cities are similar in many ways. They share common geography, as I said, climate history and both cities have a comparable level of schooling and have almost identical rates of unemployment and ethnic diversity.

Although similar to Seattle in many ways, Vancouver has adopted a much more restrictive approach to the regulation of handguns. During the study period, it is quite relevant that both cities had similar rates of burglary and robbery.

In Seattle, the annual rate of assault was modestly higher than that in Vancouver. However, the rate of assaults involving firearms was seven times higher in Seattle than in Vancouver. That sends a very good message. Despite similar overall rates of assault the relative risk of death from homicide was significantly higher in Seattle than in Vancouver. Virtually all of this excess risk was explained by a 4.8 fold higher risk of being murdered with a gun in Seattle as compared with Vancouver. That is very revealing.

The conclusion of this study was that restricting access to handguns will reduce the rate of homicide in a community. That is the basic premise I started from. It is logical that if we have more guns on the street, we will have more crime. If we have fewer guns on the street, it is logical that we will have less crime.

That is a very simple way to look at it. Unfortunately the members of the Reform Party still do not see that. It is very simple. The average person should understand that. If we let people buy a gun whenever they want with no restrictions or rules, we will have higher crime. If we restrict firearms, we will reduce the crime.

Another example is Indianapolis. Its police wanted to stop vehicles to have a real, active approach on gun control, like our drinking program. They said they would stop cars in a certain area where they had problems; they would search cars, looking for guns. They set up a proactive approach to this.

The police actively sought out and confiscated illegal firearms in high crime neighbourhoods. The result was that gun related crimes were reduced by almost 50 per cent in the relevant areas. Homicides and drive-by shootings also went down significantly. This is a very good message.

Even with this information, the Americans have been unable to put forward stricter gun controls because of the national riflemen's lobby association. Strangely enough, we hear members of the Reform Party talking about lobby groups. They say their favourite subject is lobby groups and how they are against lobbyists and lobby groups. However, when the lobby groups support their position, they are holding hands. They do not mind going to bed with the lobby groups that support their position, as they have done with the gun lobby group.

We always get the argument that we should punish those people who cause the crime. Here is another statistic that will interest people. Eighty per cent of all homicides in Canada occur between people who know each other. Most homicides occur as a result of assaults during arguments or altercations. A small minority occur during the commission of a robbery or other felony.

If there are more guns in the homes, there will be more homicides. If there are fewer guns in the home, there will be fewer homicides. It is very simple.

What is the cost of this program? Prove that it will reduce crime. If everything we did to prevent crime had to be proven first, we would not have very many crime prevention programs.

We have heard from major groups that have said that this bill will reduce crime. Common sense tells us that it will reduce crime. However, members of the Reform Party want evidence, proof now, on crime prevention programs. The proof is already there if we look at past legislation and at the gun control bill of 1977. It shows that stricter gun control reduces crime. We do not need any more proof. The government will take action whenever a crime prevention program shows it reduces crime and helps public safety.

Once a crime is committed there are incredible costs. I know members of the Reform Party have mentioned costs. But what does it cost once a crime is committed? What is the cost to a family? What is the cost to society? What is the cost of losing a family member? There are huge financial costs, for the courts, for the legal system, for the pleas. To keep someone in jail costs $60,000 a year.

Yes, the program will cost something. The registry system will cost approximately $85 million. But it is not a cost, it is an investment because it is going to reduce crime. It is an investment because it will ensure there are fewer tragedies, whether it be a suicide or a murder. Hopefully as parliamentarians we can attempt to reduce those kinds tragedies. That is why I am supporting this bill.

The Reform Party strongly opposes any preventive gun control measures. Its arguments are primarily based on defending the interests of gun owners, not in public safety. Reformers ignore the facts about the use of firearms in domestic violence, suicides and accidental deaths. Although Reform claims to put a high priority on crime prevention, the only action it advocates is to deal with criminals after lives have been lost. We want to prevent the loss of lives. That is our goal.

The costs of registration have been exaggerated by the Reform Party with allegations that the registration system will cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Concerns about the design and the cost of the system are being dealt with by taking time to develop it carefully.

I have to congratulate the Minister of Justice who had the courage to tackle this issue and to make sure that it is done right. Too often politicians do not want to tackle tough issues. They do not want to tackle issues where there is some resistance. The

minister saw resistance to gun control. It took a lot of courage for him to bring in this legislation.

With today's technology it will also be cheaper than it would have been 15 or 20 years ago. We think those figures are correct.

I know that I am running out of time. My colleague from Edmonton Southwest said his survey showed that 69 per cent of the people in his riding support stricter gun control. In a lot of ways Canadians are ahead of politicians on this one. However, as a government we recognize that we must do this. The Canadian public wants us to do it. The police forces want us to do it. Let us do it for our children. Let us do it for the youth so they will face less crime.

I have three children and I want them to live in a safe society, where they do not feel threatened by someone having a gun. I want them to build a stronger society. We do not want to be Americanized as do some Reform Party members. We want to have a safe country. We do not need guns.

If there is any message I can send today it is that everyone, including the Reform members, should support this bill and give support to the minister. If anything, it should be a tougher bill than what it is now. I hope in the future we can make it more tough because the fewer guns out there, the less crime. It is only logical.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member a couple of questions.

I too have spent the last seven or eight weeks touring the country far and wide talking to people at many public meetings. I have also received polls. I received one yesterday regarding registration from the constituents of Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke, which had 2,807 respondents. Of those respondents, 111 said yes and 2,696 said no.

That is what came from that riding. The member of Parliament has received that poll from those constituents. Is that member of Parliament going to be allowed to represent his people? After all, the polls he is getting certainly do not indicate what the minister and other members are claiming.

Are we aware that the Prime Minister received 200 resolutions from municipalities in the province of Manitoba opposing the minister's gun law? We have not heard anything about that, but I know they were delivered to the Prime Minister of Canada from the province of Manitoba.

Tons and tons of petitions are being tabled. I have managed to put in over several thousand names from all over the country because some members evidently do not want to table these petitions. They have come from all parts of the country. The latest one was from Manitoba and was signed by somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,400 individuals, including 400 or 500 women who signed it on special pink paper so it would be recognized. They are opposing this bill.

The hon. member for Burlington was with me at a meeting in Kamloops. The place was packed full. There might have been 300 or 350 people there. They asked that member to send a message to the minister. They called for a vote and they all stood opposing the gun proposals.

For heaven's sake, when you see these kinds of things-and everywhere I go I see them-and you get them from your own members' ridings, where it says that 96 per cent oppose gun registration, where in the world are you dreaming up these figures that you keep talking about?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Order. The Chair recognizes that this is very controversial and that there are very strongly held views on both sides of the debate. However I would remind members on both sides of the House to always direct their interventions through the Chair, through the Speaker, and avoid referring directly to one another as "you".

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I apologize for that. I forgot for a moment that you were there. I will not do that again. But as you say, it is very easy to get worked up.

I have attended over 19 public meetings. I have personally interviewed thousands of people and I have listened to them. I did not encourage them in any way, fashion or form. I asked: Are you familiar with the proposals? They said yes. I asked: Are you in favour? There was an overwhelming no. This is mostly grassroots. I do not have time for a lot of the elite, as do some of the ministers. I am talking to grassroots individuals throughout the country. They do not want it. It is loud and clear from every indication.

Check the petitions that are tabled and tell me how many petitions are in favour of this and how many are against. Mr. Speaker, you will be pleasantly surprised.

[Herb Dhaliwal, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on any given day on any issue I could probably get 1,000 people out in my riding. If a Reformer comes to speak in my riding, I can get 1,000 people to protest against them because of their stance. It is not hard to get 300 people up against it.

However, that is not the issue here. The issue is that overall, the polls coming in show again and again that the majority of Canadians are supporting this. There are going to be some people who oppose it because it will be in their interests to do so. These are the hunters and the people who sell guns. It is in their interests to oppose this.

Some of them have legitimate reasons. I give the minister credit because he has met with people right across the country from coast to coast to talk to them about their legitimate concerns. Some of them are hunters up in the north whose livelihoods depend on guns.

When the polls show that 15 per cent of the people are against this bill, they are going to sign petitions, but 85 per cent of the people want gun control. It is an overwhelming fact that people want gun control.

The Reform Party will pay a very high price for not listening to the Canadian public in the next election. A recent poll has shown how marginalized it is and it will be more marginalized after the next election. It will have less than the two seats the Conservatives got.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have heard the hon. member from the other side state many facts and figures.

It has been mandatory to register handguns since 1934. I would like to know how much and how far crime has depleted with the use of handguns. I also heard the member mention crime control at border crossings. I would like the hon. member just to remember that this is the same government that could not stop the smuggling of cigarettes.

[Herb Dhaliwal, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this government has done a very good job in stopping the smuggling of cigarettes. All one has to do is look at the facts.

The hon. member was not listening when I gave an example. I said that in 1977, 39 per cent of the people were using a firearm in robberies. Now it is only 26 per cent. The evidence is there and it is overwhelming. If some people want to ignore the evidence, so be it. Some people do not want the truth and choose to ignore the evidence, as some of the Reform members have done.

However, we are not going to ignore the truth or the facts. We are going to look at this in 20 years and know that we did the right thing in this Parliament. We will have passed strong gun control legislation which I think should be even stronger than it is now. Canadians across this country have shown support for us. In the recent byelections it was three seats out of three for the Liberals. Why? It is because we are doing the right thing, we are listening to Canadians.

It is surprising that whenever we have done consultations the Reform Party has called them a sham. It is not interested in consultation and it is the party that wants consultation.

There are some legitimate concerns out there on gun control and the minister has dealt with those concerns. This is an excellent piece of legislation. I hope the members will strongly endorse and support it because when they look back at it 20 years from now, they will know they did the right thing.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Before resuming debate, it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Kamloops-Taxation.

The hon. member for Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead has given me written notice that he will be unable to be present to move his motion under Private Members' Business on Friday, February 17, 1995.

It has not been possible to arrange an exchange of positions in the order of precedence pursuant to Standing Order 94(2)( a ). Accordingly, I am directing the table officers to drop that item of business to the bottom of the order of precedence.

Pursuant to Standing Order 94(2)( b ), private members' hour will be deferred and the House will continue with the business then before it.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish I could stand today to say it is a pleasure for me to speak on Bill C-68 but I am afraid I cannot. I had hoped that the hon. minister would have listened to the concerns of literally hundreds of thousands, millions of Canadians across the country who have deep concerns about gun registration. Obviously he has not and has chosen to forge ahead.

I personally have received thousands of letters from people who are concerned that the Minister of Justice has confused gun control with crime control. I am sure that every other member of Parliament in the House has as well.

There is a growing perception that our justice system is not working. The justice minister and the anti-gun lobby are trying to convince everyone that if we just make it tougher to own and use a gun legally, somehow it will be harder for criminals to use them illegally. Somehow I have my doubts about that.

Our justice system was built on the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty. We must work hard to maintain the integrity of that system to ensure that innocent people are not deprived of their rights for the wrong reasons.

When any program is put into place, it should be clear what the objectives are. There should be a means of evaluating its effectiveness. In this case, I feel the government has clearly failed.

What does imposing more restrictions on law-abiding citizens have to do with crime control? To use the minister's own words, how does registration make Canada a safer, more civilized place to live? In 1993 the Auditor General said that we do not have statistics indicating whether previous gun control legislation has had any effect on the misuse of firearms.

The results of just one short term evaluation done in 1983 were used as a basis for the even stricter gun control legislation introduced by Kim Campbell, Bill C-17 in 1991. When Bill C-17 was passed, there was no real proof that the new laws or regulations would meet the government's crime control objectives.

This justice minister has introduced legislation with some very clear crime control measures, such as stiffer penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime or for weapons trafficking. However, in the same bill he has included restrictions on honest citizens who he cannot demonstrate have anything to do with the problem.

I object to the minister lumping measures against criminals in with measures against law-abiding citizens. I object to the implication that responsible gun owners are somehow guilty of a moral deficiency or harbouring criminal intentions simply because they own a gun. I am referring to such measures as mandatory registration and powers of search and seizure without a warrant.

In parts of my riding, every household has at least one gun. The police have been handed the power to search businesses and premises other than dwellings, without a warrant. The minister has created a new category of criminals in this country.

Where I grew up in northern B.C., someone is a criminal if they do something illegal, if they actively go out and break the law. This bill makes honest Canadian citizens criminals subject to a 10 year prison term if they do not do something. If they fail to register their .22 they can be thrown in prison for up to 10 years.

Ten years was the penalty Denis Lortie got for murdering three people and wounding 13 others in the Quebec National Assembly. Ten years is the maximum penalty this minister is seeking for a young offender who commits premeditated first degree murder. Is this minister saying that because someone fails to register their gun they must be going to commit murder or rob a bank?

This legislation is a slap in the face to every law-abiding gun owner in Canada. This government tells us that we need tougher gun laws against legal gun owners because stolen guns are used by criminals. Where is the proof that registration will prevent even one death? The government does not have any.

If crime prevention is not the objective of registration, then what is? Murder rates in Canada have remained relatively stable over the last 15 years. Yet in April, the justice minister reacted to two high profile murders in Ottawa and Toronto by floating a proposal for a total ban on guns within city limits. Who did he think would be affected by such a ban, the criminals?

Tougher gun control legislation in many states has had no discernible impact on gun violence. In the United States 93 per cent of the guns used in homicides were apparently acquired illegally. New Zealand and Australia found registration did not help the police. It did not seem to have any tangible aim and did not help at the scene of a crime when the offender stole, borrowed or found a firearm.

What about in Canada? Here the government does not keep statistics on the use of illegally versus legally owned guns in the commission of crimes. Why not? Would they not support the government's position?

Last June I asked the Minister of Justice to prove to law-abiding gun owners that they are part of the crime problem before he enacts even tougher laws. We want proof that tighter restrictions for people who respect the law will prevent the criminals who do not respect the law from getting their hands on guns. Eight months later we are still waiting for an answer.

Restricted and prohibited firearms are already registered. What has their registration done to prevent crime? In most cases where restricted and presumably registered guns are used in crimes the government does not even know if the criminal bought the firearm legally. It does not keep records. There are already 1.2 million registered firearms in the country and this government does not have a clue how many of them were used in crimes because it does not ask. It knows guns used in crime were smuggled into the country and I fully support tougher measures against gun smuggling.

Why is the minister taking rights away from people who are not criminals? The hypocrisy of selling universal registration as crime control is readily apparent to everyone.

We know that thousands of guns are smuggled into the country all the time. What is the point of borders and laws if we cannot or will not enforce them? If we cannot close our borders to cigarette smuggling how much more difficult is it going to be when the government finally gets serious about gun smuggling? When will the government take a stand and give the police or the army the mandate to stop international trade in arms?

I visited with police in the Cornwall area. The minister and other members opposite like to talk about how they have the support of the police forces. Everyone knows gun smuggling is going on down there but they have not been able to stop it. When I questioned the police as to why they have not been able to stop the smuggling they said to me: "Why should we risk ourselves with a small revolver against automatic weapons? When we

apprehend these people, we make an arrest, we get them into court and they get off with a slap on the wrist".

Their message to me was to get tough with the people who are misusing and abusing firearms rather than legislate a useless registration system.

I hope this government's anti-smuggling legislation works better than its anti-cigarette campaign. I understand cigarette use has increased dramatically since this government lowered the taxes a year ago. I hope the plan is not to lower the taxes on guns to combat smuggling.

Bill C-68 has some tough laws on trafficking. Under sections 99 and 100 of part III of the Criminal Code a weapons trafficker will get up to 10 years. I also notice that tucked away in section 110(v) of the Firearms Act the governor in council can pass regulations "respecting the manner in which any provision of this act or the regulation applies to any of the aboriginal peoples of Canada and adapting any such provision for the purposes of that application".

The question has been asked and will repeatedly be asked whether this legislation will apply equally to all Canadians. The minister's reply throws more confusion when he says yes, but with flexibility toward the aboriginal people. What does this mean? Canadians need to know.

The justice minister maintains that the government is not effectively destroying the value of the prohibited handguns because Bill C-68 creates a class of gun owners they can trade with. This class is defined as any current gun owner who legally owned one of the newly prohibited guns on or before Tuesday, February 14. Considering that date I wonder if Bill C-68 is not just a Valentine's present by the minister to Wendy Cukler of the Coalition for Gun Control.

Does that really protect their investment in these guns? Over time the class of owners will dwindle through attrition. Fewer and fewer people will be allowed to buy these guns and eventually there would be only one avid collector in possession of half a million guns. When he or she dies all those guns will be confiscated by the crown. Will they get fair compensation for those firearms if he or she tries to sell them before they die? There will only be a few collectors allowed to buy them. Do not tell me that fair compensation will be offered. Do not tell me or the country that their market will be stable.

Last year a young Edmonton mother, Barb Danelesko, was savagely murdered in a home invasion. Do you think she could have convinced a firearms officer that she needed to protect herself or her children? Recently one young offender found guilty for that crime was handed a three-year sentence.

Under Bill C-68, if Mrs. Danelesko had had an unregistered firearm at her disposal for her defence and had survived, she would have had to face up to 10 years for non-compliance. Where is the balance? Where is the justice?

Proven criminals receive fewer years than this minister wants to give responsible hunters who have done nothing wrong but failed to register their shotgun.

Many people, especially those living in cities, do not believe the ability to protect your home and family is a legitimate reason to own a gun. The justice minister certainly does not believe it.

Less than a year ago he said he came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers. This is a sobering thought for millions of responsible gun owners in Canada. With the introduction of Bill C-68 he is one step closer to fulfilling his goal.

He also said he did not want Canadians to think they needed to protect themselves. I have news for him. With our over burdened police forces and court system, most Canadians already know they need to protect themselves.

Guns are a necessary part of life for many people in northern B.C. Farmers need them for predator control. Trappers and guides use them every day in their work. Hunters use them to help stock their freezers. Many of us also believe that we should be able to use guns for personal protection, to defend our homes, our families and our property.

The criminals laugh while the rest of us become their victims and have our civil liberties taken away. This is how the Liberal government deals with gun related violence. People need to be able to defend themselves in situations in which the police, as much as they would like to, cannot.

In Edmonton a man shot at intruders in his yard and he is the one facing charges. The papers called the thwarted robber the victim. If we are to have true justice the rights of the innocent defending their homes must supersede the rights of the guilty who are trying to rob them.

Today the criminals are called the victims and society apologizes for their behaviour. Meanwhile responsible citizens have more of their rights infringed upon because the police and the courts cannot keep up.

This government is trying to convince Canadians that gun control is the same thing as crime control. Maybe it is easier to go after law-abiding gun owners than after hardened criminals. I do not believe it is going to solve the crime problem and I do not think most Canadians do either.

I do recognize, however, that there are positive aspects to this legislation. If the hon. members opposite would listen, I will list the positive aspects.

For example, I applaud the changes to section 85 for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime. It has been beefed up to include imitation firearms and use during flight or the attempted commission of a crime. Although the first offence only gets 1 to 14 years, subsequent offences will net a criminal 3 to 14 to be served consecutively to any other sentence related to the same event.

However, these changes are meaningless if the charge is plea bargained away in our overcrowded courts. On the first offence a criminal would also be prohibited from owning a gun for 10 years. If he or she violates this prohibition order, they are subject to a maximum 10-year sentence. It does not say if it is consecutive.

I have some questions about whether the 10-year maximum for violation of the prohibition could ever get tacked on to a maximum 14-year sentence for using a gun in another crime. I think a potential 24-year sentence for using a firearm again would certainly make some criminals think twice before acquiring yet another gun for illegal purposes.

Making sentences tougher on the books will not mean anything to criminals if our judges will not impose sentences consistently or if gun charges are plea bargained away. Imposing a mandatory minimum sentence for armed crimes has no deterrent effect if criminals do not get a consistent message.

The minister has given law enforcement officers greater powers under this bill for search and seizure. The police need to be able to go into a domestic violence situation with the ability to remove firearms while the situation is still out of control.

However, this minister has given police far greater powers. Under section 117.02 police officers can enter any premises, except dwellings, without a warrant if they suspect someone has not registered their shotgun. Why does this justice minister believe people sign away their rights to privacy simply because they choose to own a gun?

I would like to draw the attention of the House to section 112 which says many regulations made by the governor in council do not have to be laid before the House. I find it very disturbing that further regulations can be made with respect to the Firearms Act or part III of the Criminal Code without coming before Parliament.

A small handful of people can make regulations affecting millions of gun owners and there is no public accountability or scrutiny before going into effect. I do not believe it is right that a handful of bureaucrats should be able to make regulations that can land Canadian citizens in prison.

The Minister of Justice believes Canadians widely support all of his gun control initiatives as we have heard countless times in the past and again today. Why does he not have the courage to place all orders in council related to his Firearms Act before the House? Why does Bill C-68 make it so explicit that regulations can be passed without parliamentary approval?

More important, why does he not separate his new Firearms Act pertaining to legal gun owners from his amendments to part III of the Criminal Code dealing with criminals? He has said in the House today that the reason he has drafted the Firearms Act is to address the concerns expressed by legitimate firearms owners, that they feel certain violations pertaining to them should not fall under the Criminal Code.

If he is convinced this has widespread support, he should have the courage to separate these two issues and defend each on its own merits.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I am frankly sick of listening to the flagrant misrepresentations the hon. member is indulging in with his efforts to mislead the Canadian public as to what is going on in this bill. He knows perfectly well he is doing it and he should be ashamed of himself.

I refer him for the purpose of clearing up the error-perhaps he will admit his deliberate error-to section 92(1) of the proposed new bill currently before the House. Page 68:

Subject to subsection (4) and section 98, every person commits an offence who possesses a firearm knowing that the person is not the holder of

(a) a licence under which the person may possess it; and

(b) a registration certificate for the firearm.

Subsection 3 says:

Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1) or (2) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable-

-to the 10 year imprisonment to which he referred. This is a person who committed an offence possessing a firearm knowing the person was not the holder of a licence and that the gun was unregistered. In other words, it is the criminal misuse of firearms.

Let us go back to section 91(1) of the bill:

Subject to subsection (4) and section 98, every person commits an offence who possesses a firearm, unless the person is the holder of

(a) a licence under which the person may possess it; and

(b) a registration certificate for the firearm.

Then it says in subsection (3):

Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1) or (2)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

He knows that an offence punishable on summary conviction carries a maximum sentence of six months or a $2,000 fine. It also carries the possibility of an absolute or conditional discharge. He knows that the innocent gun owner who fails to register will be charged under that section, not someone who is committing an offence which is the section he is referring to when he talks about 10 years. He is misleading the Canadian public. He should apologize for his deceit.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that we are able to excite the opposition across the way.

What I was referring to-and I stand by my earlier statements-is that there are two classes of people when it comes to registering firearms. There are those who will be covered by section 91 who will for some reason not hear about it. I cannot imagine who they will be because everyone, before we get done, is going to know about this. I do not think the government can keep it a secret much longer. The word is getting out.

For those who inadvertently do not register their firearms, the hon. member is quite correct, under section 91 they will either be facing a jail term of up to five years or an offence punishable by summary conviction which could be as little as a fine.

However, section 92 pertains to people who willingly disobey and do not register their firearms. For this crime, the government has decided that 10 years imprisonment is a justifiable sentence. I have talked to hundreds and hundreds of gun owners throughout my riding.

In January I took a tour throughout my riding which covers the whole northeastern corner of British Columbia. I tried to talk to as many people as possible. We held meetings on this. As one of my hon. colleagues said, I did not try to drum up the anti-gun control sentiment. I merely went to these meetings and asked the individuals how they felt about it. I did not have to ask very loudly because they were very forthcoming with their sentiments about more gun control and certainly about registration, not only on restricted firearms but on long guns as well.

I asked them in confidence, without revealing names, how many of them were going to be registering their firearms. I did not find one individual in my travels who said he or she would willingly and voluntarily register his or her firearms.

Under section 92 those individuals, if they have willingly not registered their firearms, will be subject to 10 years of imprisonment. That is how I read this, but I admit that I am not a lawyer, and thank goodness I am not a lawyer.