Debates of Feb. 21st, 1995

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday it was a thorough investigation, today it is not. I just cannot understand how this service works.

Are we to understand from the Solicitor General's refusal to reopen the investigation that he does not want to fully investigate CSIS activities and that he is satisfied with Grant Bristow's decision to go away?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the SIRC operates at arm's length from the minister and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. I believe the SIRC is fully empowered to conduct further investigations if it sees fit to do so.

Again, why are the hon. member and his party trying to give credibility to the Heritage Front? I am very curious to know.

Taxation

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Canadian Taxpayers Association presented the government with a quarter of a million signatures of taxpayers saying no tax increase. The minister will be happy to know that I was one of the people who carried sacks of mail up to the minister's office.

Has he got the message yet, that there are to be no tax increases?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I saw the hon. member's picture in the paper.

I must say that members on both sides of the House in response to their own constituents have made it very clear to the government and to the Minister of Finance that Canadians really feel they are suffering from an undue tax burden.

It is something the government is very conscious of and it is not our intention in the next budget to proceed primarily through tax increases. I have made it very clear that we are going to proceed overwhelmingly in cutting government spending.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would encourage the finance minister, when he gets through the 30,000 letters we delivered yesterday, to read our taxpayers' budget because we have balanced it without any tax increase.

What could the finance minister tell Canadians who are already providing his government with $120 billion to convince them that it should have more?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I have not wanted in the House, out of due deference to the fact that it was only presented this morning, to engage in debate on the package presented by the third party.

Let us be very clear. First, it causes an enormous amount of harm to very poor Canadians who are unable to adjust. Second, it is totally lacking in details. The devil is in the details. If they are going to do a budget they should at least have the courage to say what they are going to do and not have vague concepts. Third, which is very surprising, that budget does not eliminate the deficit in three years the way the Reform Party said it would.

Justice

[Ben Serré, Liberal, Timiskaming—French-River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice and is not on gun control.

Recently in my riding, I held two public forums on family violence. There was unanimous agreement on the need for such forums on a national scale in order to develop a comprehensive strategy to tackle this serious problem.

Is the minister prepared to endorse the principle of holding such national forums and to assign a member of his staff to help me organize them?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, first may I say how highly I regard the initiative demonstrated by the member in convening and conducting the forums to which he has referred.

May I say as well that we learn from these events. I know that the member has shared with caucus some of the points made during the forums in his riding. He has set an example for the rest of us in the House of Commons of the kind of action we can take locally to increase the awareness of people with respect to the scourge in Canadian society.

I would be more than happy to endorse that approach and to work with the member in whatever constructive way possible to ensure that kind of activity is repeated across the country.

Social Programs

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, considering the lopsided debate that has occurred regarding the fundamental causes of our large debt with some parties blaming social programs, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Would he confirm this afternoon that when it comes to funding social programs the proportion of expenditures on social programs in relation to the GDP is the same today as it was back in the mid-1970s?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the point raised by the hon. member is a valid one.

It is simply nonsense to make our social programs the scapegoat for the deficit. The reason we have a very high deficit is unfortunately the curse of compound interest, the fact that successive governments have allowed that debt to build up too high.

The government is now stuck with a terrible problem. It is not a question of ideology but a question of arithmetic. The member's question is very well taken.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we are trying to balance this lopsided debate. The minister acknowledges that social program expenditures have not caused the huge deficit and debt base in the country. He referred to the fact that one cause was compound interest.

Would the minister confirm that a 1991 study from his department indicated that 96 per cent of our accumulated debt since 1984 was the result of compound interest on the debt and, more important, a whole set of tax loopholes as well?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that tax loopholes and tax expenditures have deprived the government of needed revenue.

On the other side of the question we must really admit that a number of those tax expenditures had a very specific policy objective. In fact it was very important to accomplish those objectives.

The answer to the question is that it is not tax loopholes. It is not social programs. It is the curse of compound interest and the fact that the previous government simply did not face up to its responsibilities. We are going to do so.

National Defence

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of defence.

Senior officers in the army live in sumptuous government owned houses for which they pay a ridiculously low rent. Rear-Admiral Larry Murray, for example, pays $519 a month for a home appraised at more than $389,000, and Lieutenant-General Scott Clements spends $581 a month for a home appraised at more than $657,000.

How can the minister of defence accept that enlisted personnel pay $569 for very modest accommodations, while senior officers pay the same amount for houses four times the size and much more luxurious?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, some of the reports have been a little misleading.

In the case of the three service commanders, they live in accommodation that was paid for many years ago. They are somewhat large houses. Much of the house is used for entertaining dignitaries and others, and receptions of that nature.

We are trying to ensure that the portion of those houses they occupy for family reasons does accord to normal practices so that there is no disparity between what they pay and what ordinary soldiers pay.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given the current state of public finances, how can the minister of defence justify retaining such financial privileges for high ranking officers, in spite of the reasons he has just stated, while the government is preparing to increase rents by 25 per cent for persons in public housing?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I think I just gave the answer.

We want to ensure any regime that is in place with respect to rent applies fairly and equitably, no matter if the person is a general officer, a non-commissioned officer or a private.

I should point out that the government improved the basic pay for privates about a year ago before the freeze came on. It is of continuing concern to me that some of our soldiers allegedly are on social assistance. That matter is being looked into to see whether or not it is a pervasive problem and the reasons for it.

We hope to be able to address it through procedures that are in place.

Immigration

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday in the House the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration said that Polish refugee Artur Lasia was admitted to Canada not because he had HIV but because he was discriminated against based on his sexual orientation.

According to the IRB's own documents the minister was wrong. Mr. Lasia was accepted as a refugee solely because he carries the virus that causes AIDS.

At a time when our health care programs are stretched to the limit and the IRB has set a precedent for letting people like Mr. Lasia in for free medical care in Canada, how will the minister reassure Canadians that they are not losing their place in the queue for their own essential health care needs?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, the preamble to the question is incorrect in a number of areas.

First, the decision made with respect to the individual is not precedent setting because the fundamental foundation upon which the IRB adjudicates is that every individual case gets decided on its own merits. Some will make it; others will be refused.

Second, he knows full well that under the Immigration Act all immigrants coming to Canada have to go through two checks: the security check as well as the health check. He also knows that the majority of those found to be HIV positive are not permitted into the country.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting that the minister would raise both checks, particularly the health care check and HIV.

The minister opposed the Reform bill for immigrant HIV testing. The minister is responsible for the people who have made the ludicrous decision that foreign HIV carriers deserve Canada's health care and the minister stands in the House-

[The Speaker]

Two kicks at the can. The question please.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Does the minister really support his scandal plagued IRB and its decision to accept people with illnesses who will be an unwarranted drain on our health care system?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, it is really unfortunate that on such sensitive issues members of Parliament should twist and turn the facts that bear no resemblance to the principles involved in this debate.

What is the Reform Party saying? Is the Reform Party saying that it is okay for a member of a political group who is being persecuted to make a claim, that a member of a religious group who is being persecuted is allowed to make a claim, but somehow it is not okay for a member of a social group who is being persecuted, whether it is sexual orientation or gender, to make a claim?

If Reformers are saying that, let us be assured that this side wants to have nothing to do with their kind of world.

World Summit For Social Development

[Warren Allmand, Liberal, Notre-Dame-De-Grâce, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Next month the World Summit for Social Development will take place in Copenhagen to address the problems of global instability due to poverty and social injustice.

Will the minister say if the Canadian government has decided to support the 20:20 vision proposal and action plan at the summit? What will the government do to ensure the success of this important world meeting?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to inform the hon. member and this House that the Minister of Human Resources Development will lead the Canadian delegation to Copenhagen. Furthermore, over the next few days, the minister will meet with representatives from the NGOs that will be taking part in the conference.

Lastly, I would like to remind the hon. member that in the foreign policy statement it issued a few days ago, the government reaffirmed its commitment that 25 per cent of all of the development aid it gives will be spent on basic needs, such as education, health and housing, as well as family planning and drinking water.

Presence In Gallery

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I would like to draw to your attention the presence in the gallery of His Excellency Josef Zieleniec, Foreign Minister of the Czech Republic, with an accompanying delegation.