Debates of Feb. 6th, 1995

Taxation

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, first of all I know that the member did not mean his words to come forth as they did. He is not encouraging Canadians to revolt. I am sure that is not the case. I would not interpret it in that way. Revolting is not a word that one would use when applied to the Reform Party.

There is some time between now and when the budget will be brought down. The Prime Minister stated it very clearly. We know that Canadians do not want to see themselves burdened with further taxes. That has been made very clear. The Prime Minister stated it.

He also knows that until I bring down the budget, I am not really going to respond to individual questions.

I understand that the Reform Party is desperately trying to get ahead of the movement that is so far ahead of it. It should not take the time in this House to ask hypothetical questions that I cannot respond to until such time as I have brought down the budget.

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

The president of the CBC met with the members of the Liberal caucus, at his request, on Friday to discuss the CBC's budget. According to the chairman of the Quebec caucus himself, Mr. Manera discussed the CBC's coverage of the referendum on sovereignty.

Does the Prime Minister acknowledge that the president of the CBC made a serious error in judgment by discussing the CBC's coverage of the referendum campaign in camera with the members of his party, in total disregard of the CBC's requirement to remain independent and neutral?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the caucus met with the president of the CBC at his request. He requested the meeting. They asked questions as they are entitled to do. You can ask me questions in this House. You can ask the ministers questions. We will pass them on.

We want news coverage to be fair across the country and that the CBC be allowed, within its mandate, to do what it wants. We just want it to be fair for everybody and we want all viewpoints heard and not just one. In fact, we are asking all the broadcasters in Canada to give everyone an equal opportunity.

Up to this point, provincial government money has been spent on distributing pamphlets-not the pamphlets of the Liberal Party-but the pamphlets of the Parti Quebecois and the other parties. The system is unfair. We want the debate to be fair and both campaigns to be given exactly the same coverage.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was not the one who described the Liberal Party's mail-out as pamphleteering.

Given that Mr. Manera has put himself in a situation which is to say the least vulnerable and delicate, does the Prime Minister intend to use harsh measures by asking for his resignation, as the Premier of Quebec has asked, in the interest of maintaining the CBC's integrity and autonomy?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have full confidence in Mr. Manera; he is an experienced civil servant with long service at the CBC who asked, in the interest of defending his organization, to meet with members to explain the role of the CBC. It is quite normal for members to have asked him questions regarding the work of the CBC. I have not spoken to Mr. Manera since he became president and I do not intend to speak to him either, nor will my wife.

Taxation

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance keeps saying that he will not raise taxes, just close loopholes. Canadians see right through this public relations gimmick.

If a policy hurts like a tax increase, if a policy raises revenue like a tax increase, it is a tax increase. Canadians do not want higher taxes under any guise. Will the minister neutralize the effects of closing tax loopholes by lowering other taxes?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, both of the third party's critics on financial matters are people I respect a great deal. I enjoy discussions with them and I enjoy this in Question Period.

Do they really think it serves the public purpose for them to consistently stand up in advance of the budget and ask the government, under our position which is not to respond on what the budget is, all kinds of questions, knowing that the answers are not going to be satisfactory and cannot be until such time as the budget has been presented?

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am responding to a principle enunciated by the minister in the House several times.

Sweden recently cut spending and raised taxes. The higher taxes were seen by investors as a lack of government will to attack the causes of chronic deficits. They punished the Swedish krona in the exchange markets.

I have a supplementary question. What has the minister learned from the experience of Sweden?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, one thing is don't ever be the Swedish finance minister.

We have made it very clear that in the next budget we intend to deal with the deficit primarily by cutting government spending. We have said that. The Prime Minister has said that on countless occasions. I can confirm it to the member opposite. We are going to deal with the deficit. We have demonstrated that clearly, and we are going to do it primarily by cutting government spending.

Interest Rates

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the repeated drops in the value of the Canadian dollar and hikes in interest rates can be attributed to the government's inaction and its refusal, for more than one year, to work on cutting the government machine's overall spending. Financial circles are becoming even more sceptical because of the possibility that the government will try to arrest its deficit by implementing new taxes or a general surtax on income.

Will the Minister of Finance admit that his government's inaction and complete nonchalance have directly caused interest rates to rise, in particular mortgage rates? Will he admit that implementing a general surtax will strangle economic growth and will only drive interest rates even higher?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Once again, Mr. Speaker, the opposition is asking hypothetical questions and is inventing straw men. Why? I do not know.

Allow me to say that at our last meeting, my counterparts from G-7 countries and IMF officials had only praise for the progress that Canada has made over the past year. When we hear the figures that the Prime Minister quoted earlier, when we see the action taken since the last budget, we can conclude that, for the first time in a long while, the government not only intends attaining its goals, but also is credible in this pursuit. The hon. member should be very proud of our achievements since we formed the government a year ago.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, of course we have nothing but praise for the fact that interest rates have increased during the past two months and the fact that the financial community has lost confidence in a Minister of Finance who, for the past year and a half, has done nothing to bring the deficit under control. That is certainly praiseworthy.

How can the minister reject the official opposition's recommendations to cut spending and review the tax system? How can he justify imposing new taxes and asking the middle class to add to its tax burden, while at the same time giving Canada's wealthiest taxpayers tax credits of over $2 billion so they can buy deluxe condominiums in the United States? Now, that is good management. That is something to be proud of.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I have yet to receive any constructive proposals from the Bloc Quebecois as to the kind of cuts we should make. The hon. member says he will give us a list tomorrow. I can hardly wait.

Since the hon. member mentioned interest rates, perhaps he could explain why, for the past few months, the interest rate differential between Quebec bonds and other provincial bonds has been increasing every day.

The member should explain why it is that the interest rate differential between Quebec bonds and the other provincial bonds is getting larger and larger. That is the real question that ought to be asked in the country.

Public Service

[Eugène Bellemare, Liberal, Carleton—Gloucester, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the President of the Treasury Board.

It was disappointing to find out that the Public Service Alliance of Canada has refused the government's buyout package for downsizing.

Could the minister reassure public servants that the government remains committed to fair treatment of its employees and will continue to try to reach an agreement with unions and to minimize any job losses as a result of downsizing?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, yes, I can give those assurances to the hon. member.

We certainly want to make sure that our employees are treated in a fair and reasonable fashion, both those who will be leaving as a result of the downsizing and those who will remain to provide excellent services to the public of Canada.

May I also point out that I will be meeting further with union representatives with respect to this matter. I have been doing that for a number of months in an attempt to reach a mutually acceptable agreement. I am quite willing to continue to have a dialogue with them.

We are however running out of time. Soon we must make decisions about this matter with respect to the forthcoming budget.

In terms of minimizing any job losses, we have reviewed the programs and services of the federal government. We are not out to cut employees per se, but as a result of reduction of programs and services there will be downsizing necessary.

Social Programs

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, apparently the human resources development minister has finally come to realize that we have no more money for increased spending on social programs. We are mortgaged and taxed to the max.

Why can the minister not understand that social programs can be reformed without spending more money?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I draw the hon. member's attention to the opening statement we made about a year ago in the House. Right from the very beginning we said that one of the most important reasons for undertaking social reform was to make existing programs work better, to get better value for our money, to make the money go further, and to target it where it would do the most good.

That is exactly the purpose we intend to follow. That purpose is entrain, on schedule. We will continue to put together the kinds of proposals we hope to receive this afternoon from the House of Commons committee that has spent a lot of its valuable time listening to Canadians. Once we have that report we can then get on with the job.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, just last week the minister was quoted as saying that the government would have to deal with its budgetary problems before it would be able to get on with the reforms.

When will the minister show some leadership and start real reform of Canada's social security programs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, unlike the hon. member we believe that it is possible, to use an old metaphor, to walk and chew gum at the same time. Unlike the Reform Party that seems to be focused on only one issue, this party is able to take a number of issues and deal with them simultaneously.

We have said very clearly that a precondition, a necessary condition for social reform, is having a stable and effective fiscal system in the country. It is not a sufficient cost. It is a necessary cost.

We have to put the two of them together: good reform in the budget to bring about fiscal stability and then good reform of our programs to get people back to work.

U.S. President's Visit

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Prime Minister.

Obviously put out by the Leader of the Official Opposition's request for a meeting with U.S. president Clinton during his official visit to Ottawa on February 23 and 24, the Prime Minister objected to such a meeting. Yesterday, his Minister of Foreign Affairs set the record straight and stated that the government would not object to a meeting between the American president and the leader of the official opposition.

Could the Prime Minister indicate on what grounds he objected to this meeting on Friday? Could he also explain since when a Canadian Prime Minister dictates whom an American president may or may not meet?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I was asked that question. I thought it was about a letter sent to me but it was a letter to President Clinton.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

No, it was not mine. I did not receive a letter. I made enquiries.

I was sent a copy of a letter, but the request was made to President Clinton, who will answer it himself. I cannot speak for President Clinton.

I would like to point out to the hon. member that I am just back from a trip to six countries, where I never met the leaders of the opposition. I only met the ministers. And I did not object. The point is, this is not a general custom, and when I was leader of the opposition, there were some presidents who came here whom I did not meet, and in fact, in December when President Zedillo came, he did not meet the Leader of the Opposition.

In any case, President Clinton, who received the letter, will respond, and we will see what his answer is. It is not up to me to answer that question.

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, now that he no longer objects publicly to a meeting between Mr. Clinton and the Leader of the Official Opposition, will the Prime Minister promise he will not use pressure tactics or indulge in any behind-the-scenes manoeuvring to try to discourage the U.S. president from meeting the Leader of the Official Opposition?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, in the normal course of events, President Clinton's letter should come from Washington, not from Ottawa.