Debates of Feb. 7th, 1995

Social Programs

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the report tabled by the human resources development committee offered the curious vision that social programs are working brilliantly yet they are desperately in need of reform.

Almost all of the recommendations are based on three false assumptions: that governments create jobs through ever increasing public spending; that a government monopoly is the best means of caring for those in need; and that ever increasing government debts and deficits are justifiable if they are spent on government run, make work projects and social programs.

Last week the Minister of Human Resources Development told the news media that deficit reduction had overtaken social program reform as the top priority. Can the minister tell Canadians if he will proceed with social program reform only if he can spend more money and control program delivery?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it is obvious the hon. member was so busy reading his own minority report that he did not bother to look carefully at the majority report.

It very directly says we must put social reform in the context of a stable fiscal economic system because we have to build upon that base of stability. This is something we are certainly favouring because we do believe that part of social reform is to have a well functioning economy which is not subject to the kind of vulnerabilities and volatility we are now receiving in the international finance market.

Beyond that it said it is very important to look at many of the existing programs and shift resources for those programs to much more active employment development so that we can get people back to work. After all, the ultimate strength of our economy is to have more Canadians going back to work. That is how we will build this country, by investing in people.

[The Speaker]

Once again colleagues, it is early in the year but I would appeal to you to make the questions brief and the answers brief.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, if the government would get its fiscal house in order there would be a lot less need for social programs.

I travelled with the Commons committee for five weeks. Many ordinary Canadians I heard were not saying the things that are in this report. It is obvious the government is paralysed because it has spent too much time listening to government funded special interest groups.

Can the minister tell us, is his government going to continue the Liberal tradition of social programs dominated by decisions made in Ottawa and make promises it cannot keep and add to the worry of average Canadians because of its lack of vision?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the vision we put forward in the social paper was to ensure that a wide range of Canadians would be able to fully participate in the process.

I am glad to report that well over 100,000 Canadians participated mainly through the efforts of members of Parliament who held town hall meetings, through the work of the committee itself and through the effective work of the department in getting out workbook questionnaires. It probably has been the largest exercise of public involvement in any decision on public policy.

I go back to what the member's hon. leader said during the election, that we must listen to the judgment of the people. This exercise is listening to the judgment of the people and that is the best vision to have.

Public Service

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, in this House, the Prime Minister continued to maintain, after checking with the Privy Council, that there are federal public servants who are paid to sit around and do nothing. And again, yesterday, he was contradicted by his President of the Treasury Board, who said that he was aware of no one being paid to stay at home and do nothing.

The Prime Minister must have made further inquiries since yesterday. Can he tell us now how many public servants, in the Privy Council's estimation, are being paid to do nothing and where they can be found?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, there is no discrepancy with respect to the remarks that have been made in this matter.

We are heading toward the budget and the downsizing that is going to occur in the public service as a result of the program review exercise. We are concerned about being able to deal fairly and reasonably with our employees so that we will not have anybody staying at home collecting money and not working. We simply will not tolerate that circumstance.

However, in the course of dealing with our employees we will deal with them fairly and reasonably.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, both statements cannot be true. How can the President of the Treasury Board stand up and say that no public servants are being paid to do nothing when his Prime Minister said exactly the opposite?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, there is no discrepancy between the Prime Minister or myself on this matter.

I indicated that I was not aware of this matter. That is not to say that there were not people involved in the past. What we are saying as we get into this exercise of downsizing is that we simply cannot tolerate that if there is no work there can be no pay. That is what both of us have very clearly said to the people of this country.

Trade

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Trade.

The biggest concern in my riding of Halifax West is with jobs and the economy. The Prime Minister recently led a trade mission to Latin America with 200 Canadian companies.

Can the minister tell the House what this mission accomplished in terms of jobs and the economy?

[Roy MacLaren, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, the basic purpose of the trip was of course just that, to create jobs and increase prosperity in Canada.

In the case of Argentina, the mission led by the Prime Minister signed some $400 million in contracts; in the case of Brazil, some $600 million; and in the case of Chile, some $1.7 billion.

The Prime Minister was also able to assist Chile in furthering the accession of that country to NAFTA. Elsewhere in South America he was able to to give greater reality to our commitment to free trade throughout the western hemisphere.

Crtc

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

On January 1, the CRTC forced the country music television network off Canadian cable systems. As a result CMT has shut Canadian country artists out of a global audience estimated at 32 million world-wide.

Yesterday the United States government announced it was considering further retaliatory measures against the Canadian broadcast industry, placing our trading relationship with that country in jeopardy. The minister is moving down the dangerous path of cultural protectionism.

Does the Minister of Canadian Heritage not realize he is harming Canadian culture and Canadian artists by sanctioning the CRTC decision?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the decision taken by the CRTC is precisely designed to protect Canadian artists and the Canadian cultural industry.

CMT, which is owned by The Nashville Network, was informed by the CRTC when it scheduled in Canada that if there was another channel opened by Canadians it would have to move out. There is no surprise there. The CRTC has taken its decision with full regard to the trade obligations entered into by Canada.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is a completely unacceptable answer in this day when technology is being over-ridden by outdated regulations which do not serve our Canadian artists. This is cultural exploitation at its extreme.

My supplementary question is for the same minister. Why is he putting up roadblocks for our very fine Canadian artists? Our cultural industries are among the best in the world. We need liberalization in order to compete more effectively instead of trying to restrict our artists from developing in the international economy.

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, far from putting up roadblocks, we are opening an information and cultural highway for them with great success.

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

We have learned that not only did the CBC chairman meet the federal Liberal caucus in Toronto to discuss the budget of the corporation, but that he also had a meeting with the members of the Quebec wing of the federal Liberal Party to discuss coverage of the referendum campaign by the CBC.

How can the Prime Minister justify the fact that Mr. Manera participated in a second meeting which only involved federal Liberal members from Quebec and the Minister of Canadian Heritage, specifically to discuss coverage of the referendum campaign?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the reason is that the Liberal caucus is very large. Consequently, the CBC chairman first met Ontario members, and then Quebec members, the next day, after they had arrived.

In fact, the chairman had sent an invitation to meet Bloc Quebecois members, but the hon. member was not in her office to find out what was going on.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Oh! What a terrible thing to do, Mr. Speaker. For your information, the letter arrived on February 3 and I came back to my office on the sixth. My supplementary is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

Following his blunder with the CRTC, and given his ministerial responsibility, how can the minister justify participating in a meeting on the CBC's coverage of the referendum campaign, thus directly jeopardizing the autonomy of a crown corporation of which he is supposed to be the guardian?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, surely the hon. member knows that members of Parliament attend caucus meetings. However, she forgot to mention that the Premier of Quebec has also asked for the resignation of the heritage minister, but I will provide an explanation. The reason is that the Premier is so desperate to find a Quebec minister of culture that he is now turning to Ottawa; however, I have no intention of doing him that favour.

Government Appointments

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a brief question for the Prime Minister.

The chairman of the Prime Minister's leadership campaign in Newfoundland in 1984 and a failed Liberal candidate on numerous occasions since 1972 was sworn into the CRTC last Monday.

I would like to ask the Prime Minister to enlighten us as to whether or not there were any other candidates for the job or just a Liberal?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, people are appointed regularly to boards. We look for competent people. It just so happens that because more people belong to the Liberal Party than any other party, we have to pick one once in a while. Last week, in order for the Globe and Mail to write these articles it had to rely on the chief patronage officer of the previous government who is an expert.

I have been in this party for 32 years and in all the lists I saw in the Globe and Mail on Saturday, I did not know more than 60 people personally. There are a lot of people who have worked in Canada in different functions. If the hon. member can prove that the person is incompetent we will not give him or her that job. However, he has to prove other candidates are competent which is exactly what we are looking for, good, competent people who have good judgment.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

You would have to go a long way to find a Liberal in my riding, so I do not know where you are coming from.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

I would ask the hon. member to always address the Chair, please.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister would have to go a long way to find a Liberal in my riding.

The Prime Minister's appointments director, who happens to be the wife of the Minister of National Defence-if you can figure that out-says that ability, merit, integrity and honesty would be the criteria for job handouts. Charles Roth was

appointed as a director of the Mint after contributing to the Liberal Party. I would like to ask the Prime Minister: If you donate to the Liberals does that give you a licence to print money or just a job at the Mint?