Debates of Feb. 8th, 1995

National Defence

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that the minister forgot to answer part of my question. I also asked him for an investigation into the events on the base itself.

My second question is this: Does the defence minister confirm that, in a recent investigation, the military police seized a third videotape whose content may be more violent and even more shocking than the two previous ones? Can the minister promise that this new tape will not be destroyed like some of the evidence relating to the events in Somalia, which has vanished?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of the existence of the tapes or other evidence to which the hon. member is alluding.

If he has such evidence then hopefully he would make it available to me, and I could pass it on to the military police authorities. Of course that could be a subject of interest for the inquiry at a later date.

Social Programs

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, many months ago the Minister of Human Resources Development launched his much touted review of social programs. He promised to radically transform our social safety net to make it more efficient and restore hope to those entrapped within it. Now, months later and millions of dollars later, nothing. The minister has failed to deliver on any of his promises and his failure will cost Canadians dearly in the budget.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Given the government's failure in this regard, what plans does it now have to reform social programs and when can Canadians expect the results?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the hon. member is attempting to cast a very important initiative which has been very broadly and strongly endorsed by the Canadian people to help reform social policy in a light that only reflects his own particular pessimistic view of things.

The government is very much committed to continuing with social reform. We now have the committee report which has a number of recommendations in it. We are looking at that report very carefully. We will be responding to it within the time required by the House in terms of a specific policy and we are going forward with our plans to bring in legislation this fall.

Social policy is well on track, unlike the policies and positions of the hon. member.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the failure of the social program review has a direct impact on the spending in the budget.

As the government knows, over 60 per cent of its spending is in the social area. The budget cannot be balanced unless both social programs and social spending are substantially reformed.

Will the government not acknowledge that the primary reason the finance minister is now considering tax increases, which he was not doing two months ago, is because the human resources development minister failed to deliver on social programs and social spending?

In other words, will the government acknowledge that it is the taxpayers who are going to pay for the human resources development minister's failure?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat the answer once again for the hon. member. I recall very well that during his election campaign he was a strong advocate of listening to the judgment of the people. Since he has been elected to the House it seems he no longer has much faith or trust in their judgment.

We still do and that is why we undertook for a period of four months a very serious, very extensive, very broad based discussion with Canadians. Over 100,000 participated in one way or the other.

Our reforms will be based on the judgment of the people, not on the curious and strange ideology of the hon. member opposite.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government has not yet provided any satisfactory explanation for the failure of the social program review. Surely one of the reasons is that the minister handed out millions and millions of dollars to liberal thinking special interest groups to lobby for the status quo and against spending reductions.

This is becoming the Achilles' heel of the government. The parole board has been weakened by patronage and special interest politics, as has the IRB and the social program review.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Instead of excusing and justifying patronage and special interest politics, when is the government going to acknowledge that it is this addiction which weakens the government's integrity and do something to correct it?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, what the member calls an addiction

to special interest groups could much more properly be expressed as a real interest and willingness to find out what Canadians believe and what they say.

The proof of the value of having that kind of broad based discussion with Canadians is demonstrated in the kind of recommendations that the majority members tabled when the committee reported this week, unlike the Reform Party's recommendations.

The member for Calgary North, a member of the committee, is quoted today as saying that she hopes people do not misinterpret aspects of the Reform Party's report on social policy, admitting "they were not thought through very well before they were rushed into print".

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[An hon. member]

That is priceless.

[An hon. member]

Are we surprised?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that the member for Calgary North is certainly much more correct than the hon. member for Calgary south.

Department Of Justice

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

During the last election campaign, the Liberal Party promised to put an end to patronage. But when it comes to appointing legal advisors, the government just keeps breaking its promises.

Can the Minister of Justice confirm that his department recently stopped dealing with a Cowansville law firm and gave its business to the law firm of Eugène Bachand, who is the president of the Brome-Missisquoi Liberal Association, while the law firm of Liberal candidate Denis Paradis was allowed to continue to do business with the Department of Justice to the tune of $100,000 a year on average?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, when the government goes to the private bar to obtain lawyers for assistance the chief criteria for that selection are competence and merit.

In Brome-Missisquoi and in places across the country the Department of Justice, since the election of the government, has reformed the process of selecting legal agents to ensure that they are properly trained and supervised, that they act without conflict of interest, and that services are provided in accordance with the highest standards of competence. Those are the criteria upon which we select agents.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, could the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether the Minister of Justice gave this work to Eugène Bachand to get him to withdraw as the Liberal candidate for Brome-Missisquoi in favour of Denis Paradis?

[The Speaker]

My colleague, it seems to me that your question does not exactly fall within the mandate of the minister in question, but has to do with the party rather than the administration of this particular department.

Western Economic Diversification

[Cliff Breitkreuz, Reform, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of Winnipeg, or is it western economic diversification?

I recently released a critical study of his department which showed conclusively that his home town of Winnipeg was receiving a disproportionate amount of WED dollars. This report, which was based on information obtained directly from his department officials, showed that Winnipeg received five times more than Vancouver, seven times more than Calgary, and seventy times more than Regina between November 1, 1993 and November 15, 1994.

Why is the minister funnelling far more taxpayer dollars into Winnipeg than any other western city?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it seems to be my day with the Reform Party.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

As we heard in the last round of questioning-

[The Speaker]

It is getting more and more difficult to hear the questions and the answers. May I appeal to members to listen to both the questions and the answers.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, as we discovered in the last round of questioning, the accuracy and reliability of Reform Party reports are somewhat questionable. We can see it even more so in the report cited by the hon. member wherein the statistics were based upon only 20 per cent of the actual approved projects for western Canada.

If the hon. member and the Reform Party are trying to demonstrate to Canadians that they are the soul of rectitude when it comes to finances, it seems to me they should learn to count.

[Cliff Breitkreuz, Reform, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister stands here and gives his version of the facts while officials recently told the media that Winnipeg receives a disproportionate amount of funds, even more than I stated in my report. No matter how we slice it, western economic diversification is largely about pork barrelling.

Is the minister willing to dismantle the department to show Canadian people that he will put the nation's finances ahead of his own pork barrel agenda?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, just to point out the old adage that figures never lie but liars use figures-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.