Debates of March 1st, 1995

The Budget

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly intend to schedule a meeting with the finance ministers. They asked me to wait until they had all tabled their own budgets, so let me know when Mr. Campeau tables his, and I will tell you when we will have this meeting.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Transport having problems? I think this is my question and not his. If the Minister of Transport misses being in the opposition, he will be back here soon enough. In the budget speech, the Minister of Finance proposed that the funds paid into the Canada Assistance-

[An hon. member]

Give him his valium.

[The Speaker]

Order. I realize today is Wednesday, but, nevertheless, it is the hon. member for Roberval's turn to ask a question.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the budget speech, the Minister of Finance proposed that transfers under the Canada assistance plan for social assistance now be allocated among provinces in the same way as established program financing transfers for health and post-secondary education-by combining, in 1997, all transfers into a single one: the Canadian social transfer.

Will the Minister of Finance acknowledge that his government's intention to pay the amounts involved in the Canada assistance plan according to the criteria for the established programs will deprive Quebec, in 1997, of several hundreds of millions of dollars in social assistance, in favour of Ontario?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

No, Mr. Speaker.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is as follows. In his budget, the Minister of Finance announced that he will change the bases, the criteria for allocating money under the Canada assistance plan. He said himself that the transfer will be on the same basis as for the other programs, that population will be the criterion for allocation.

If the Minister of Finance is using population as the Canada assistance plan allocation criterion in order to transfer to Quebec the money involved as a lump sum, will he acknowledge that this approach will take hundreds of millions of dollars away from Quebec in favour of a province like Ontario? If he will not acknowledge this, will he tell us what basis he is using?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I indicated very clearly that we intend to sit down and negotiate with the provinces. We are bringing about changes in federalism. I think that this will require face to face discussions. I have a hard time understanding the questions. I think the hon. member has been briefed by Bob Rae.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday officials of the Department of Finance were telling investors that Canada would balance its budget by the year 2000. Today they are reassuring those investors that even a downturn in the American economy will not stop the government from balancing the budget because the effects will be offset by cuts to social programs and transfers to the provinces.

My question is for the Minister of Finance. Why were Canadians not given more details about the impending social cuts in Monday's budget? Will the minister reveal his real agenda for social spending reductions, a hidden agenda which must exist if the budget is to be balanced by the year 2000?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, this is the second day in a row on which the leader of the third party has referred to apparent briefings or statements by unnamed Department of Finance officials.

I think we should make the record clear. I do not know what the leader of the Reform Party is talking about. That makes me a fairly typical Canadian.

The fact is that I am really not able to respond. I would like to respond to the leader of the third party's statement, but I do not know about the briefings that he is raising and that he raised yesterday.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I refer to stories in a number of the financial papers about assurances being given-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

There are also broad hints in the budget that the minister is obviously contemplating deeper cuts in social spending and transfers if he is going to balance the budget.

If these plans are in progress they are being developed behind closed doors, without Canadians knowing. We even wonder whether the Minister of Human Resources Development knows about them. The finance department is planning major cuts. The human resources minister yesterday said that what they were going to do was reshuffle existing funds to his department.

My question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. Is that minister personally aware of the changes the finance department has in store for social programs? If so, will he share that agenda with the Canadian people and with the House?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I have read very carefully the document that was tabled in the House on Monday. I am prepared to share it with the hon. member for Calgary Southwest because obviously he has not read it.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the chief financial officer of a publicly traded company put out a prospectus on Monday and it was found out on Wednesday that they had hidden plans which affected the bottom line and all the shareholders, that CFO could go to jail under Ontario securities law.

None of us would like the Minister of Finance to go to jail, so my question is: Will he come clean and tell Canadians what social program cuts the government is planning in order to balance the budget after 1997?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

It is somewhat incongruous watching the Reform Party trying to defend social programs. It is like watching an elephant tap dance.

The Reform Party has to be very desperate and it is quite clear it is so disconcerted by the very favourable reaction that the financial markets have given to this budget but it has lost its issue and is trying to make one up.

There is no hidden agenda. The only agenda that people are looking for today is the Reform Party's and they cannot find it.

[Translation]

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister announced in his budget that he intends to tackle old age pensions. One of the budget documents states that the reform of old age security will be based primarily on the following principle: old age security benefits will be calculated on the basis of family income, as is the case with the guaranteed income supplement.

Can the finance minister confirm that calculating old age security benefits on the basis of family income will mean that, in the future, old age pensions will no longer be the same for everyone and that thousands of senior citizens will see their pensions drop?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, to answer the question directly, the exact opposite is true.

Having said this, the federal government and indeed the provincial governments are duty bound to protect old age pensions, the Canada and Quebec pension plans. We intend to sit down no later than this fall to work out a sustainable system. You have seen the actuarial report on this subject.

So I cannot understand the position of the hon. member who would not protect Canadian seniors' old age pensions.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if the finance minister protects old age pensions the way he has protected unemployment insurance, we are not out of the woods yet.

Will the finance minister admit that calculating old age pensions on the basis of family income will directly penalize for the most part women whose financial independence will be compromised?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, no firm decision has been made on this matter. We intend to consult, and it is indeed our duty to do so, but nevertheless let me answer your question directly.

According to the study by the Caledon Institute of Social Policy, women are not only protected, their pensions are in fact increased. It is a good thing for women.

I put the following question to the hon. member: He is against seniors, is he also against women? The hon. member should get his numbers right before asking questions.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, a centrepiece of the government's budget is the creation of something called the Canada social transfer.

The government's motive for creating this transfer is that this government was planning to make larger and bigger cuts to sacred cows like health, post-secondary education and welfare in this and possible future budgets.

To clarify the situation and to clarify the answers that the minister just gave, will there be any additional cuts to this new super transfer beyond those announced in the current 1995-96 budget?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, we set out a very clear plan to preserve our social programs. The Canada social transfer provides us with a basis to do that. It provides us with the basis to do that in very straightened circumstances.

I continue to have some difficulty understanding the nature of the question. I have a great deal of respect for the member but he must understand that he is with a party that recommended two weeks ago that we take $15 billion out of those social programs which would effectively gut them. We are certainly entitled to have a little consistency on economic policy in this country by at least one of the two opposition parties.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the answer by the hon. minister.

The Reform Party was up front. We laid it out that we would reduce by $15 billion the social program spending.

What I am asking the minister and the government of this country to do is to lay it out for Canadians and tell them the truth about what is going to happen. That is what we want.

If we look at this 1995-96 budget, the government's transfer proposals provide no additional tax points and actually cut cash transfers to provinces by 20 per cent to 25 per cent. What else is going to happen?

Is this one of the ways that the government is planning to decentralize the deficit but there is a hidden agenda that provinces do not understand?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, we have had numerous meetings with the ministers of finance of the provinces. The minister of HRD has had numerous meetings with his counterparts in the provinces. The provinces understand full well the nature of the federal fiscal dilemma. They understand also that it is very important that the federal government get its fiscal house in order because that has enormous benefits for them.

What the provinces said to us was no surprises and there are no surprises. They said hit yourselves first and we have. They have said hit yourself harder than you hit us and we have. We have lived up to every one of our commitments. There is no hidden agenda. There is one very public agenda and that is that we are going to preserve the social programs of this country and clean up the nation's finances.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

In the budget speech, the federal government announced that it will be setting up a human resources investment fund of several hundreds of millions of dollars, which the federal government will use to meddle in the area of job training.

Will the minister concede that this fund infringes on the powers of the provinces, does nothing to decentralize government and, in fact, increases even more overlap and duplication between governments?