Debates of March 13th, 1995

Petitions

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I also have two petitions asking for limitation of federal spending.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a final petition to present that talks about deterring young people from committing crimes by changing the Young Offenders Act.

[Roseanne Skoke, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have 20 petitions containing the same subject matter. They contain 3,300 signatures from my riding of Central Nova.

The petitioners support the ownership and responsible use of firearms. They believe that there are already adequate existing laws governing the ownership, sale, use, transportation and storage of firearms. They oppose any new firearm registry or registration fees, new costs, or any further restrictions on firearms.

They ask Parliament not to enact any new firearm registration fees, costs or any further restrictions on the ownership, sale, use, transportation or storage of firearms.

I have already placed the concerns of my constituents on record today at second reading debate.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Unfortunately the time to present petitions has expired.

Question Passed As Order For Return

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, if Question No. 131 could be made an Order for Return, the return would be tabled immediately.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House that Question No. 131 be deemed to have been made an Order for Return?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-68, an act respecting firearms and other weapons, be read the second time and referred to a committee; and of the amendment.

Firearms Act

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will continue my comments on Bill C-68 concerning the inclusion of replica firearms in this bill and whether it will solve the problem. Unfortunately it does not. It is just a small step in the right direction.

Someone who uses a replica firearm during the commission of an offence will now be subject to the minimum one-year consecutive sentence. In reality, this will generally be the maximum sentence as well. It is a good first move but unfortunately that is as far as this bill goes in addressing the situation.

For serious violent offences where a firearm is likely to be used such as robbery, hostage taking or sexual assault with a weapon, to get the new minimum sentence of four years the crown will still have to prove that the object used was a firearm.

In the case of a robbery there will be a witness who saw the criminal waving an object that looked like a firearm. Security cameras will show the criminal waving an object that looks like a firearm. However, unless the firearm is fired or the offender is immediately arrested, there will not be any convictions under this section. In the majority of instances the crown will still be faced with the impossible task of proving that the object met the legal definition of a firearm.

In reality, C-68 will mean that criminals who pull off robberies with real firearms will likely only get an additional one-year sentence for possession of a replica firearm during the commission of an offence as the criminal will claim the object he used was only a replica and the crown will not be able to prove otherwise. This is simply not good enough.

A second aspect of this bill that the Liberals are giving a great deal of acclaim to is the new minimum sentence of four years for any of 10 specific violent offences with a firearm.

My private member's bill called for a minimum sentence for using a firearm during the commission of an offence to be raised to five years. This sentence was to run consecutively to the sentence for the actual crime. Therefore, I suppose those of us calling for a greater minimum sentence should be happy with the minimum of four years.

In all honesty I would be satisfied if the government had introduced a minimum four-year sentence for using a firearm during the commission of an offence if this sentence had been consecutive to any sentence for the actual offence. However, this is not what the government has done. Instead it has created a combined minimum sentence of four years for both the crime and the use of a firearm.

What difference is this going to make? Not much. What about repeat offenders? Unlike section 85 which calls for an increased minimum sentence for repeat offences, there is no such increase for those criminals who repeat their violent crimes with firearms.

The amendments I would suggest are a joke. The minister's press release makes it sound like the government is getting tough on criminals who use firearms but in reality these changes will not result in increased sentences for those who use firearms. At best it will maintain the status quo. In some cases, the length of the sentence will likely decrease.

A four-year minimum sentence for manslaughter with a firearm is a joke, pure and simple. The average sentence for manslaughter is already four years. How is this minimum going to have any deterrent effect? It is not.

My private member's bill called for a minimum five-year sentence for the use of a firearm during the commission of an offence to be served consecutively to any sentence for the offence itself in a first offence and a minimum of 10 years for a second offence. The difference is very simple. Under Bill C-68 a first time armed robber will more likely serve a four-year sentence which is a decrease from the current going rate of five years. Under my bill a first time robber using a firearm would likely serve a four-year sentence for the robbery and an additional five years for using a firearm for a total of nine years.

Which one sends a greater message of condemnation of using firearms during the commission of an offence? Which one is likely to deter criminals from using firearms during the commission of an offence?

The concern I have in separating these two parts under C-68 is that part III will be left out of the discussion. It is very important to Canadians that part III, the criminal use of firearms, be dealt with separately from the national registration.

In dealing with C-41 there have been two words that have taken over the debate: sexual orientation. I would suggest that national registration is going to take over the debate of this gun control legislation and the criminal use of firearms is going to get lost in the discussion.

It is very important that we separate those two and allow for Canadians, the committee and all parliamentarians to take a close look at what this government is suggesting for maximizing the deterrence to the criminal use of firearms.

I feel it does not go far enough. We should have ample opportunity to deal with that and not just talk about the national registration program.

[Sheila Finestone, Liberal, Secretary of State (Multiculturalism) (Status of Women)]

Mr. Speaker, our standard of living, our social and economic standing make us the envy of the whole world. The elevated status Canada enjoys is not a coincidence: it is the result of women and men of strong will who imprinted principles and values on our country as it grew.

If one principle has guided this House since the beginning, it is an unwavering commitment to preserve a peaceful nature in our society. At times this commitment has meant taking a stand on some very controversial issues. It has also meant introducing groundbreaking legislation such as this bill on firearms control, Bill C-68.

Controversy has never kept us from protecting the values and the ideals Canadians so rightly deserve and consider their own. These values include the rights to liberty and personal safety which are now enshrined in our charter of rights and freedoms.

In this respect, the firearms control legislation introduced by my colleague the Minister of Justice will undoubtedly make history. Every effort has been made to ensure that Canadians who use guns responsibly will be able to continue to do so.

For example, the Minister of Justice has asked the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to consider whether or not some handguns, for example those used in target shooting competitions, should be exempted from the proposed ban. This kind of careful consideration given by the minister will help ensure that the legitimate use of firearms is permitted.

However, we all know that firearms are often used irresponsibly. This bill addresses the use of weapons and the violence they inflict on our society. It not only deals with firearms but also with the shadow of fear they cast upon all of us. In fear and in violence there are no rights and no freedoms, just victims.

Some disregard violence due to firearms because they claim it does not reflect the Canadian spirit. Indeed, Canada does not have a tradition of individuals carrying firearms for self-protection. Hopefully what one might call the gun culture that prevails in the United States will never cross our borders. Nevertheless, violence is real. Statistics can only begin to describe the pain and suffering firearms inflict on their victims.

Over the last 10 years firearms were responsible for 32 per cent of all homicides committed in Canada. Every year on average, 1,400 Canadians lose their lives to them. Of those deaths, 1,100 are suicides. Many of those lives could have been saved if firearms were not so readily available to individuals in distress.

Since 1970, 470 children have died in Canada as a result of mishandled firearms. Those figures are shocking to most Canadians. Those children deserved a future. Those children deserved the right to dream. Those children should never have been exposed to this kind of danger.

That is why firearms control and registration are so important to Canadians. Denial will shelter no one from a stray bullet. Every Canadian will benefit from this legislation.

Statistics show that Canadian women support this legislation wholeheartedly. From statistics we know that in this country every six days a woman loses her life to a bullet, most often at the hands of someone she knows. Almost always it is in her own home.

In the years between 1974 and 1992, 42 per cent of women murdered in domestic incidents were shot by their husbands. Eighty-five per cent of domestic murders with firearms are committed with either a rifle or a shotgun. Eighty-two per cent

of the guns that are used to kill women are legally owned at the time of the shooting.

[An hon. member]

Registering them will not help.

[Sheila Finestone, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

If this sickening truth cannot impact on your attitudes across this floor-

[The Deputy Speaker]

The member is an experienced member and I would ask her to please address all of her remarks to the Chair.

[Sheila Finestone, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is the sickening truth that firearms are the weapon of choice for men who murder their wives. I was trying to point out that my colleagues across the floor need not laugh at this moment. It is a serious moment in this debate.

In 1987 the English writer Martin Amis wrote: "Bullets cannot be recalled. They cannot be uninvented. But they can be taken out of the gun". I would add that the safest way is to take the guns away.

As a government we must introduce strong legislation to maintain the peaceful nature of our communities. This responsibility begins with the implementation of tighter firearms control laws. I unconditionally support the legislation presented by my colleague the Minister of Justice.

This bill reflects the wishes of the majority of Canadians. According to surveys, up to 70 per cent of all Canadians want stricter gun controls.

Several large national groups, such as the association of chiefs of police, have endorsed this initiative. Teachers' federations have stated that measures, like the Minister of Justice's bill, were needed to counter violence in our schools.

Nationally, women have spoken out on this issue for years. Women's organizations from across the country and from a wide variety of societal and cultural backgrounds have been calling for tougher gun control laws for a long time. They have asked for tighter restrictions and I am proud to say that we are now responding.

Perhaps the most eloquent support for this initiative and for the Minister of Justice came from Suzanne Laplante Edward who said: "I think this guy is going to go down in Canadian history. This man just wants Canada to be safer". Mr. Justice Minister, we all agree with that statement. She knows what she is fighting for. Her daughter was killed at l'École polytechnique five years ago. Since then Mrs. Laplante Edward has worked relentlessly for firearms control.

Indeed this legislation is an achievement. It is the kind of initiative that brings about positive social change and preserves our quality of life.

It takes decisive action against automatic firearms. As of January 1, 1995, 21 types of assault guns will have been prohibited. Handguns with no legitimate purpose will be prohibited.

The firearms control legislation recognizes the need for increased and more effective sanctions for the misuse of firearms.

Contrary to an observation made just a few moments ago, four years is the beginning and not the end of the term. It introduces stiff minimum penalties that will serve as true deterrents. For the first time, mandatory minimum sentences of four years in prison in addition to a lifetime prohibition from possessing a restricted weapon are introduced for a series of violent offences including sexual assault with a weapon and aggravated sexual assault.

Anybody charged with criminal harassment, better known as stalking can be temporarily prohibited from owning a firearm. That will save women's lives.

Third, the package sets tougher regulations on lawfully acquired firearms. It creates a national registration system for all firearms. Let us not forget that it is often a legally acquired firearm that is used in domestic violence. The shotgun over the mantelpiece is even more threatening to women than the illegal firearms across our border. Keeping track of property for the purpose of information and regulation is commonplace in our society.

I am going to finish with a quotation from an editorial in La Presse :

The editorial asked whether we could imagine a citizen owning a car without being licensed to drive, without a licence plate, without insurance, without driving within the speed limits, parking the car any which way and anywhere and leaving the key in the ignition? Of course not. So, why must we accept that a gun owner be entirely free to purchase, own, hide, store and use the gun of his or her choice.

There are six million-

[The Deputy Speaker]

The minister's time has expired. Unless there is unanimous consent for the member to continue I have to go to the next speaker.

I wish to inform the House that because of the ministerial statement, Government Orders will be extended six minutes, pursuant to Standing Order 33(2).

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will start by analyzing briefly the arguments in favour of the bill and then I will address the problem of violence against women within this debate.

First, I wish to remind this House that this bill is supported by a great many social groups and professionals in the police, legal, health and social communities. I will name only a few, which come under the umbrella of the Coalition for Arms Control.

They are the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, the Canadian Bar Association, the Canada Safety Council, many churches, the Quebec public health network, the Quebec hospital association, many universities and school boards, many unions, the AFEAS and other women's groups and community organizations. Such agreement on an issue that may seem controversial has rarely been seen in Canada and Quebec.

The intense lobbying campaign now under way would suggest that the population is very divided on arms control, but such is not the case. The polls clearly show that the reality has always been otherwise.

Allow me to quote a few of these polls. In December 1989, better arms control was supported by 72 per cent of Canadians and 87 per cent of Quebecers. By January 1991, this support had climbed to 80 per cent of Canadians and 90 per cent of Quebecers. Two years later, in September 1993, universal weapon registration was favoured by 86 per cent of Canadians and 91 per cent of Quebecers. Regarding the sale of firearms, 77 per cent of Canadians and 87 per cent of Quebecers were of the opinion it should be governed by stricter legislation.

As for those directly concerned, i.e. firearm owners, in September 1993, sixty-eight per cent of them supported the idea that all weapons should be registered. This goes to show that the public fears firearms and wants firearms to be better regulated.

Several reasons militate in favour of stricter gun control. The Coalition for Gun Control listed a few. Here are some of the reasons stated: people are safer in a gun-free environment; firearms facilitate suicide; there is much more violence involving firearms in Canada than in most European countries. The current legislation is inadequate in many respects, including accessibility to military assault weapons, absence of a registry of all firearms in circulation, lack of a ceiling on the number of firearms that one can buy and lack of control over the sale of ammunition.

All these reasons justify much closer monitoring of the possession and use of firearms.

Now, moving to a more specific concern of mine: violence against women. There is a direct link between the violence women are subjected to and firearms. I will start by addressing spousal abuse.

It will be recalled that Statistics Canada published the results of a comprehensive survey in October 1993.

It showed that one Canadian woman in every four had been abused by her current spouse or a previous spouse and that 45 per cent of abused women were abused by men they knew. A study conducted by two researchers from the Canadian Center for Justice Statistics and published in March 1994 dealt with the most extreme form of spousal abuse: homicide. Among their findings, the most striking are the following:

For each man killed by his wife, there are on average 3.2 women killed by their husbands. From 1974 to 1992, married women were nine times more likely to be killed by their own spouse than by a stranger. The number of women killed by their spouses after separating is high. During the 18-year period covered by the study, from 1974 to 1992, 1,435 women and 451 men were killed by their spouses. The 1,435 women killed accounted for 38 per cent of all adult women who were murdered, while the 451 men killed by their wives represented 6 per cent of murdered adult men.

Let us now see the link between violence against women and gun control. Another study conducted by Statistics Canada and entitled "Family Violence in Canada" shows that, between 1974 and 1992, forty-two per cent of women murdered by their spouses were killed by a firearm. These eloquent figures are supported by the findings of Mr. Maurice Cusson, director of the École de criminologie at the Université de Montréal, and his research assistant, Mrs. Raymonde Boisvert. In a study entitled "L'homicide conjugal à Montréal: ses raisons, ses conditions et son déroulement", the authors examined the reasons behind, and the circumstances surrounding every spousal homicide committed on Montreal Island between 1954 and 1962, and also between 1985 and 1989.

The authors first found, as women's support groups have been saying for a long time, that control by men is the dominant factor in spousal homicides. This is true for both periods, that is before and after the quiet revolution. The authors also note that homicides triggered by this need to control are always committed by men and that the victims are almost always women, the only exception being homosexual couples.

Out of the five elements identified by the authors as being intrinsic to homicides based on a power relationship, there is the vulnerability of the victim, and this is where firearms come into play. The authors concluded that "the victim must be deprived of adequate defence mechanisms to protect herself from the attacks of her spouse. This raises the issue of power, which usually rests with the man, who is physically stronger than the woman. More often than not, that power is increased by getting a firearm".

The authors of the study see the acquisition of a firearm by the spouse as a danger signal which should not be overlooked. Another study, conducted by the Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women, showed that, between 1980 and 1989, 72 per cent of women killed by their spouses were shot with a rifle or a gun. These figures are much higher than the percentage of murders committed with this type of weapon.

The new legislation provides that these weapons will be subject to registration and thus to much stricter controls. We must now consider the following: would these women have died if our firearms legislation had been similar to the legislation before the House today?

Let us draw an analogy here. What spousal suicide and spousal homicide have in common are the location-the home-and the means used. The Quebec suicide prevention centre has concluded, from experience, that the suicide rate is higher in homes where guns are available.

A press release issued last October says that 92 per cent of suicide attempts where a gun was used are fatal, while suicide attempts using other means are fatal in only one-third of the cases. We have established a link between access to a weapon and spousal homicide. If we can save just one life by restricting access to firearms, we will have accomplished something.

I support Bill C-68 because I want to eliminate the means used most frequently to kill women. The measures the bill contains will restrict access to guns through compulsory registration and licence renewal for responsible individuals only. Persons previously convicted of violent crimes and stalking will no longer have access to guns and ammunition. Furthermore, I think the minimum four year prison sentence will act as a deterrent to using guns in domestic situations. This is a win-win situation, for women, first of all, and for society in general.

[Harold Culbert, Liberal, Carleton—Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take the opportunity to comment on Bill C-68, the firearms act, on behalf of my constituents in Carleton-Charlotte.

Carleton-Charlotte, located in New Brunswick, is over 200 miles long. A good portion of it lies along the 49th parallel bordering on the state of Maine. It consists of all of Carleton county, all of Charlotte county, a sizeable portion of York county and a portion of Sunbury county. The economy of these regions is extremely diverse. It is based on agriculture and food processing, forestry and pulp and paper mills, the traditional fishery, aquaculture and fish packaging, manufacturing, tourism and the service industries.

As you can imagine, Mr. Speaker, there are not large urban centres but rather rural areas built around service to the citizens. The towns and the villages have developed over the centuries to provide these services to surrounding rural areas. Hunting and pleasure fishing have been a way of life for the citizens of Carleton-Charlotte since the area was settled in the mid to late 1700s.

Hunting still plays a very important economic role in the region for outfitters, service industries and guides. Almost every farmer and many rural residents own firearms, not only for hunting or sport but also for the protection of their livestock from predators.

Over the past few months I have held several meetings, some large and some small, regarding the firearms proposals which are now in Bill C-68. There has been complete support throughout Carleton-Charlotte for stiffer penalties for the use of firearms in the commission of a crime, including the minister's proposal for a four-year mandatory prison sentence for the use of a firearm in 10 specific violent crimes. Also the initiative for stiffer penalties for illegally importing and trafficking in firearms as well as stricter border controls on firearms is most commendable.

The section dealing with the prohibition of various types of assault weapons is also fully supported. However the 105 millimetre or 4.14 inch or under barrel length handgun ban has been questioned. It has been suggested that the full length of the handgun could have been emphasized instead of the barrel length only.

My constituents appreciate the fact that the minister has requested the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to determine which handguns in the prohibited class could be exempted due to their use in recognized shooting competitions.

To say that they have major concerns with the universal registration system for legal hunting rifles and shotguns would be stating it mildly. Those who have commented to me on this subject rejected this section vehemently. As indicated, I have hosted meetings which were well attended and smaller meetings where I was able to speak candidly with individuals. In all cases the registration system is the portion of Bill C-68 which elicits the most serious concern and the strongest objection.

The general consensus indicates that the proposed universal registration system, which will include the owner's legal hunting rifles and shotguns, will be hard to administer and extremely difficult and expensive to enforce.

Many of my constituents believe that this system will make criminals out of innocent, law-abiding citizens who either do not register their legal rifles or shotguns or those who are unaware of the necessity to do so. These citizens are responsi-

ble, respectable people who enjoy hunting as a sport. They value their rifles and shotguns and take great care to secure them.

However these responsible people could, through no fault of their own, be charged with a criminal act; for example, a person who is unaware that a rifle or shotgun is stored in an attic and does not know that they are required to register it. For many years now handguns have required registration. This is not new for handgun owners.

Currently an FAC, or a firearms acquisition certificate, must be obtained prior to purchasing any new firearm. It has been suggested that the FAC system be upgraded to include full registration for new firearms, instead of trying to initiate a universal registration system for all firearms. As I understand it, a thorough check is required and the name of the applicant, the description and the serial number of the firearm is kept on record at the retail outlet but not forwarded on to a central registration centre. I believe that it would be very useful for the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to review this possibility in an attempt to streamline the registration system.

Other alternatives were also suggested, including a program which would include issuing an owner's certificate only to ensure that the holder is a qualified and legitimate owner.

Another point was that although one person may own all of the legal hunting rifles and shotguns in a family, the individual's spouse, sons and daughters, who would use the firearms for hunting purposes, would have to purchase individual firearms licences at $60 every five years. This happens in many cases where the entire family enjoys hunting. I would suggest that the standing committee review the possibility of a family package for these cases.

Finally, hunting plays a very important role in the economy of my constituency and throughout New Brunswick. Many outfitters have benefited from and created employment for others through this tradition. We must ensure that the system adopted is fair and equitable for the responsible firearm owner. We must protect this important aspect of our economy. These assurances can only be provided by the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, through its review of Bill C-68, by bringing forwarded the appropriate changes.

I would be pleased to assist the committee in any way possible to ensure that we have fair legislation which will be supported and will achieve the goals for which it was intended, to make our communities and our streets safe for my family, for your family and for all Canadians.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin today by expressing my appreciation for the presence of the Minister of Justice who is listening to the debate. I find it commendable that he would be here to listen to the speakers.

I rise in the House today in support of the Reform Party's motion proposing amendments to Bill C-68, an act respecting firearms and other weapons.

For several months now the people of Cariboo-Chilcotin have been campaigning non-stop against a bill they have seen as not only intrusive, but an invasion of their rights and their privileges as Canadian citizens.

I received over 800 letters and 70 petitions since the Minister of Justice tabled his firearms legislation late last year. They all had the same message: get tough on the criminal, not on the legal, law-abiding gun owner. These are impassioned letters and the message being given is a simple message. It is a message that has been sent to Reformers, Liberals and Bloc members alike. It is a message which has not been heeded in Bill C-68 and it is a message to which the Reform Party is trying to respond with this amendment.

Bill C-68, as it now stands, is, as my colleague from Prince George-Peace River noted, really two bills combined into one. On the one hand it gets tough on criminals that commit crimes using firearms and replica firearms by increasing minimum sentences to four years in prison. This is a measure for which the Reform Party has been calling. As the Reform blue book clearly states: "If elected a Reform government will introduce legislation by which the criminal misuse of firearms will be severely punished". Reform has called for minimum mandatory jail terms for firearms related crimes. I am encouraged that these concerns have been at least partially included in Bill C-68. This truly is getting tough on the criminal.

If these measures are brought into law independently, the government can count on the support of Reform Party MPs and our party membership across the country. On the other hand, Bill C-68 places what many Reformers and even some Liberals agree are excessive and unnecessary restrictions on the legal, law-abiding gun owner.

I refer particularly to the proposed firearms registry, along with the many accompanying provisions that could make criminals out of gun owners. It could make criminals out of them simply because they do nothing. This provision, as I noted earlier, has raised a great deal of concern within my riding and many others.

The current handgun registry has had little if any effect on crime. The proposed firearms registry will only follow in its footsteps, adding more rules but doing nothing to solve the problem. However, this is an issue to which I will speak at another time.

As for the amendment, the Reform Party has given the Minister of Justice and the House an historic opportunity. It gives all members of Parliament the choice to stand together and to show Canadians our common commitment to fighting crime. Despite our political differences we share a desire to get tough on criminals. Together we can quickly pass strong anti-crime legislation.

The amendment will also provide us all with the chance to focus at a later date on the one issue that divides us and threatens this entire package. That issue is the firearms registry. The use of a registry in firearm ownership is a radical departure from Canadian tradition and one which should be carefully examined.

In light of the experiences of countries such as England, Australia and New Zealand we are very much afraid this is a lost cause before it even gets started. Two years ago the Auditor General made this statement on the topic of Canada's gun control policy. He said: "Evaluation of the [gun control] program is essential to give the Canadian public and members of Parliament the assurance that its objectives are being met".

Clearly the gun registry has not undergone the sort of significant, non-partisan evaluation needed to contribute to the debate. Until this happens there will be ongoing divisions within the House over the registry, slowing up the positive aspects of Bill C-68 in the process. If this is the only issue that seriously divides us as parliamentarians, let us deal with it separately. Let us deal with it in the best interests of all Canadians.

In closing, as members of Parliament we have long hoped for the day when we can come together in a spirit of co-operation and common direction in the interests of our constituents. By adopting the Reform amendment the House can, even on this one issue, work in unison for the betterment of all Canadians. Let us not let what divides us hold back what unites us.

[Réginald Bélair, Liberal, Cochrane—Superior, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when the gun control issue heated up last year after a string of gun-related crimes, culminating in the fatal shooting at the Just Desserts restaurant in Toronto, emotion ran so high that it was very difficult in the confusion to properly dissociate the weapon of the crime from the underlying and growing issue of violence in our society.

Responsibility for these crimes was quickly linked to the availability of firearms and to every firearms owner. Under the proposed gun and crime control bill a very high number of my constituents understand the fact that responsibility for crimes involving firearms is being unfairly attributed to the law-abiding gun owner on the same basis as the criminals.

The government is right to introduce legislation containing tougher sanctions against individuals convicted of murder and to step up efforts to deal with the smuggling of firearms. Such measures are necessary if we want to control crime and prevent an increase in the crime rate. We must ensure compliance with existing legislation on the wrongful use of firearms and their proliferation in our society. However, I have serious reservations about some of the points proposed in the bill.

In my riding, being a rural one, almost everyone owns a rifle or a shotgun, yet the incidence of violent crimes involving firearms is practically non-existent. They are responsible and law-abiding citizens including natives, trappers, sustenance and sports hunters, gun club members and gun collectors that have all proven their ability to own and use a firearm. Stricter gun control will not necessarily result in a decrease in the number of crimes involving firearms in this rural part of Canada. These law-abiding firearm owners should not be burdened or inconvenienced with additional gun control measures that will not reduce crime or improve public safety.

Self-respecting firearms owners will not willingly accept a further erosion of their right to privacy. They are afraid that when the data base is complete, it may provide, on request, information on their financial situation, marital status, mental health and mobility, all because of regulations that may profoundly intrude on their privacy, and at their own expense.

My constituents have been asking all along that the bill be divided into two parts: legislation that directly affects law-abiding gun owners and legislation that affects the criminal use of firearms. They have, as I have, also requested a free vote on the issue. We know that this will not be the case and therein lies my dilemma. I am wrenched between the loyalty to my party and representation of the views of my constituents. It will not be an easy call.

Eighty-five million dollars was forecast by the government to implement the national firearms registration system. The federal government has pegged the number of guns in circulation to be registered at 7.5 million. This number differs by a wide margin with the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters calculations of 15 million as well as with those of the National Firearms Association. That is why the projection is unrealistic while I find the cost still prohibitive.

The National Rifle Association in the United States has already expressed concern that American hunters who will be required to register at the border will not come to Canada if they have to register their guns.

If we implement tough proposals do we not risk creating a new kind of relationship between the government and law-abiding gun owners, a climate of non-compliance or civil disobedience? We must keep in mind that the legislation is counting on all gun owners to voluntarily register themselves with police and to register all of their firearms by the year 2003.

Anti-gun control proponents could use any illegal avenue to stay out of what has already been dubbed the registration swamp. We must avoid red tape and restrictions on law-abiding gun owners if we cannot yield any evidence that stricter controls would make our communities safer.

The adoption of pro-active prohibition orders has also raised objections from many firearms owners. The penalty would apply to all members of the household if one member is affected by such an order. Should we impose prohibition orders on law-abiding firearms owners because a close relative committed a crime using a firearm? Many people think this is very unfair.

From another perspective on the issue, I hesitate to endorse new gun control legislation before the provisions of the Criminal Code can first be fully applied and enforced. We know that Bill C-17 is still in the early stages. Insufficient time has passed since its adoption to assess the effectiveness of its measures.

Law making, to be meaningful, must go beyond the legislative process and must be enforced. Every gun control or enforcement measure requires resources for its implementation. This will be an extra burden on the RCMP, the QPP and the OPP. If the threat of massive non-compliance is carried out, our federal court system will become so clogged that it will take years to process each individual case.

A number of inquiries conducted in various countries have shown there is no connection between the percentage of crimes involving firearms and the degree of regulation of firearms in that country. In countries with a very low rate of violent crimes or homicide, like Japan and Switzerland, the presence or absence of firearms is irrelevant. However, making young people socially responsible, giving them a good education and warning them against criminal behaviour is a major factor in producing low crime rates.

Countries that have tough firearms legislation have shown an increase in the rate of violent crimes. Countries whose citizens have a healthy cultural life and have very close family ties have the lowest rate of violent crimes committed with firearms, whether such arms are available or not. There is no evidence that more regulations have reduced the number of violent crimes.

Such findings are important. Homicide is a societal problem unrelated or at least marginally related to public access to firearms. The government should therefore concentrate its efforts toward identifying the real causes of crime in our society.

Bill C-68 is not only a registration bill but also a crime control bill. Imposing minimum mandatory sentences of four years for serious crimes committed with a firearm will go a lot further in deterring violent crime. Judges will be given strict instructions to no longer be lenient with the criminal element of our society and not to accept plea bargaining from defence attorneys. Measures such as these will make potential criminals think twice before they commit a reprehensible act.

The anti-tobacco and alcohol smuggling campaign of 1994 has proven to be very successful and the same methods of controls should be applied. The one-year minimum sentence will also send a very strong message that the illegal importation of firearms will be severely punished.

A huge majority of Canadians also agree that military and paramilitary weapons should be prohibited as their usefulness is totally unjustifiable in our society.

In essence, Bill C-68 responds extensively and quite adequately to Canadians' wishes to strengthen the Criminal Code for crimes involving firearms. I totally share this feeling with my urban colleagues. There are legitimate concerns since crimes committed with firearms are in effect concentrated in urban areas.

However I feel that this bill does not heed the concerns of rural Canada. A law-abiding citizen could end up with the same black mark on his or her record as a criminal found guilty of a real crime involving a firearm.

In addition, one must really question the constitutionality of the information that will be stored on the magnetic strip of the credit card style of permit. Canada is a country that prides itself in respecting the privacy of its citizens. Is the federal government not probing too deeply into people's lives? Furthermore, if this bill is adopted as is, it will be most interesting to see how the Supreme Court of Canada will react to this point as this law no doubt will be challenged.

I am reserving final judgment on this bill until I am given an opportunity to study the forthcoming amendments. I owe it to the 6,000 constituents who have taken the time to write, to sign petitions, or to verbally express their views on this controversial

issue. Hopefully the speeches heard in this House will serve to enlighten the members on their final vote.

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today we are debating on second reading Bill C-68, an act respecting firearms and other weapons. The current Liberal government is making it a key piece of its legislation.

The famous red book to which our colleagues across the floor so often refer promised tough legislation in the area of gun control. The Bloc Quebecois, like most Quebecers, has always been in favour of tighter gun control.

A number of recent tragic events have made all of Quebec aware of the inescapable reality that firearms are dangerous and kill readily.

Murderous rampages are a fact in our society: 1984, Assemblée nationale, three killed; 1989, Ecole Polytechnique, thirteen women killed; 1992, Concordia University, three professors killed. These events are etched in our collective memory.

Bill C-68 is therefore a step in the right direction. It proposes measures to ensure better control over the purchase, possession and storage of firearms.

It provides for more severe punishment for the possession of a prohibited or restricted weapon. It also introduces new offences and denunciatory sentences for the illegal importing and the trafficking of arms. It will now be prohibited to import or sell .25 or .32 calibre handguns and handguns with a barrel length of 105 millimetres or less.

Finally, the bill establishes a national registration system for all firearms, to be administered by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in co-operation with provincial and municipal forces.

This system will help police forces to combat the criminal use of guns: first, orders of prohibition for certain weapons will be enforced; second, the fight against smuggling will be stepped up by controlling the kind and the quantity of firearms entering the country; third, compliance with the rules for the safe storage of firearms will be ensured; fourth, it will be easier for police forces to track stolen weapons or those used to commit crimes.

Setting up the gun registry is a positive move. We nevertheless deplore that this system will not pay for itself, as was initially promised by the government and demanded by the official opposition. In fact, the Liberal government estimates that, over a period of seven years, it will cost $85 million to implement the system.

The Bloc Quebecois has no problem recognizing that this system will help fight against the illegal sale, possession or use of firearms. However, the official opposition believes that the period for registering firearms must be shortened. In spreading the deadline over an eight-year period, the government has chosen to compromise the attainment of the goals of police forces.

The Bloc Quebecois has no doubt that the Minister of Justice and his government caved in to the repeated attacks of several pro-gun lobby groups. Does the power of money compare to the power of AK-47s?

How else could we explain that over 13,000 military type automatic weapons, including over 4,000 AK-47 machine guns, will remain uncontrolled?

What kind of moral of logical justification could there be for owning such a firearm? Partridge hunting? We could lose a lot of feathers if that were the case. Personal protection then? In that case, we have powerful enemies. The desire to own collector's weapons? Is an AK-47 a work of art? Unless, of course, we want to turn it into a symbol of our civilization.

The government did not have the courage to do its homework. It evaded its responsibilities by asking the Standing Committee on Justice to find solutions to problems the government itself created.

For example, the government has asked this committee to find an acceptable solution in the case of firearms that have special significance for some people as family heirlooms, so that owners can bequeath their firearms to their children as part of their inheritance. That may be a legacy of love.

Given the situation, the Bloc Quebecois can only support wholeheartedly the recommendations made by coroner Anne-Marie David. The Liberal government should do the same.

Coroner David suggests that the Minister of Justice should amend the wording of the regulations on the safe storage, display and transportation of firearms to make it more consistent and easier to understand for the whole population. She feels that the current regulations are confusing and that not distinguishing between unrestricted and restricted weapons contributes to the confusion.

What Boileau said in the 17th century is more valid than ever: "A well-formed thought can be conveyed clearly, and the words to express it come easily".

Coroner David also notes that the current regulations allow weapons to be displayed. Is it unreasonable to believe that such a display can be an incentive to steal weapons or arouse the curiosity of some people who may be tempted to handle them?

The regulations contain another flaw: How can we approve regulations that authorize the transportation of unloaded unrestricted weapons on the back seat of a vehicle, as long as they are under the supervision of an adult?

According to Anne-Marie David, such leniency is an incentive to steal and contravenes in some cases the provisions of the Act Respecting the Conservation and Development of Wildlife.

The government must therefore launch an extensive information campaign to clearly explain the amendments to the regulations. It is aimed at the public at large, but should target certain groups in particular, such as hunters, collectors and sharpshooters.

According to coroner David, it is imperative that this publicity campaign be conducted under the aegis of a provincial committee and, sadly, that the federal government contribute the financial resources necessary to the success of such endeavour.

As we can see, this bill has no teeth, but its flaws have to be remedied, if the federal government really wants this legislation to have not just teeth, but good sharp ones.

The official opposition remains committed to producing legislation that will ensure tighter gun control. Support expressed by individuals, organizations and community social action groups fighting against violence, is extensive.

A large coalition originating from Quebec has taken a stand for closer monitoring of the sale, possession and use of firearms. Both public and parapublic organizations have come forward; the vast majority of police forces and police associations are in favour of increased gun control.

As the member for Laval Centre, I am particularly proud of the level of awareness displayed by the residents of my riding and my city, as evidenced by the resolution passed by the Laval town council on November 9, 1994, in support-unequivocal support-of stricter gun control measures.

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to stand and make my contribution to the debate on the question of the adoption of the new legislation on gun control in this country. I say to anyone in this House who is in question as to where I stand on this issue, I stand most strongly and most passionately in favour of the adoption of this bill. I do so for a whole variety of reasons. Many of them are emotional because it is an emotional debate.

I think that all of us, wherever we stand on the gun control debate, were horrified just before Christmas when a young girl in the United States went for a sleepover with her friends because her parents were going to be away overnight. At some point in the evening she found out that her parents were going to be able to come home. She and her friend went back to the house. When she heard her parents coming in she hid in the closet. When her father came in the front door she jumped out of the closet and yelled "boo" and her father shot her to death. What a terrible tragedy. It would not have taken place if there had not been a gun in that house.

I think many of us remember the case in Michigan several years ago of a 9-year old paperboy who went to collect paper money, something he did every week. Most of us pay our paperboys or girls every week. The owner of the house, not realizing who it was, thinking it was an intruder, shot him to death.

We remember the Japanese exchange student in the United States who was out with some friends on Halloween, experiencing a long and treasured tradition in the culture of the United States and Canada, going door to door, trick or treating. He too was shot and killed by a homeowner who thought he was an intruder.

All of these examples take place tragically in the United States. I believe most passionately they take place there because there is a gun culture in that country that does not exist in this one. I intend to fight most passionately to see that kind of culture never takes hold in this country. That is not the culture that belongs to bona fide hunters, farmers or sport shooters.

I am going to quote someone I saw on CTV not too long ago. The man's name is Dan Matheson. Any who watch Canada AM will have seen him. He does sports, the weather and shares the anchor desk. One day not too long ago he said he had taken his little boy fishing. I cannot remember if I have the exact cost, but it somewhere between $30 and $50 to get a fishing licence to go fishing with his son. He said: "I just do not get it. I pay this to go fishing with my son. What is the complaint to register a gun? That is a whole lot more dangerous than a fishing rod".

The whole question of gun mentality in this country is misunderstood. There are members in this House who have misused the statement that there is a right to bear arms. There is not now any right in any Canadian constitution to bear arms. Not in this country. Not now and please, God, not ever. We have already seen the results of violence.

The hon. member opposite spoke most eloquently of some of the examples in Montreal; the example that haunts all Canadians over the age of reason on that December night, the École Polytechnique.

Violent actions are not only occurring in the streets at the hands of criminals, they are occurring in the homes of our neighbours. Death and injury by guns in the home are now a greater problem than the criminal misuse of firearms on the street. This relates directly to the questions of violence against women.

The greatest threat of homicide is not at the hands of a stranger. The majority of gun homicides, 86 per cent, are caused by family members, friends or acquaintances. One woman in Canada is killed with by gun every six days, most often in the home by someone she knows. We have evidence that a significant number of offenders act impulsively, suggesting that the simple availability of a gun can determine whether a homicide will occur.

I have tremendous respect and affection for the Minister of Justice but he does not go as far as I would. It is probably because I am an urban member. It is probably because I am a woman. It is probably because I do not have a cool head when it comes to the question of guns and gun control.

Last session I saw a bill brought forward that had many good points. I sat on the legislative committee that dealt with that bill. I saw it watered down until it effectively meant very little. That is why I am so proud to stand on this side of the House with this minister, with this government, to support this bill. It is tough and it is also fair.

I have been to gun clubs where I have walked in and said: "Gentlemen, I am your worst nightmare". No one in the House is more strongly opposed to guns than I am. There are many who are equally strongly opposed, but none more strongly opposed.

I have left those gun clubs with those people perhaps not agreeing with me but understanding my point of view and understanding the point of view that is the most important, that 70 per cent of the people of this country agree with the Minister of Justice. They agree with the Prime Minister. They agree with members on this side of the House because they apply a little intelligence to the equation and they understand the situation.

If we want to talk about legitimate polls, as the member from Calgary appears to be, he could speak to his own minister of justice in Alberta who commissioned a poll. Those of us who know a fair bit about polling know that we can commission polls so that questions will turn up the response we want. That minister was not a particular proponent of this government's law and yet even that poll showed that 62 per cent of the people in Alberta favoured gun control.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Out of 300.