Debates of March 2nd, 1995

The Budget

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the more we ask, the more we learn. Yesterday the Minister of Finance admitted that the cuts to the provinces represented 4 per cent. Today it is 14 per cent. Tomorrow, maybe-

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[An hon. member]

It is the truth.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

I prefer to believe the Prime Minister, Mr. Speaker.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

He is just as honest as his Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Will the Prime Minister admit at least that the reduction in transfer payments is not decentralization, since, as the Minister of Finance said yesterday, the federal government is refusing to transfer the corresponding tax points, because it does not want to give up any of its leverage in post-secondary education, health care and welfare? Will he acknowledge this?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Finance spoke of 3 per cent, he was talking about 3 per cent of a provincial budget. The figure of 14 per cent is the cut in transfers. That is the distinction.

It is a funny thing about money transfers. For years, the opposition has been telling us to get out of these areas of jurisdiction. And when we do so, they tell us to keep on paying. But the more we stay in these areas, the more federal taxpayers have the right to insist that we be involved in such matters. We are saying to the provinces that, with the new system, we are giving them more flexibility, as they have been requesting for years.

Health

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in an interview yesterday on the CBC, the Prime Minister suggested that medicare needs to be reduced and revert to meeting more basic needs.

The Liberal budget includes further reductions in federal transfers for health care and the intergovernmental affairs minister has apparently told the Quebec government that Canada's health laws need to be opened up. All of these things are completely opposite to the promises in the red book on health care.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Is there a federal plan to restructure health care and health care funding? If there is, why did the government choose to omit that plan from Monday's budget?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I was a member of the House of Commons when the health care system was introduced. The five conditions written into the act will remain. I will not jeopardize the medicare system in Canada.

It is a very good system and we want to maintain it. We are holding discussions with the provinces at this time to see what can be done to make sure that while we reduce the cost of medicare we maintain the quality of service. That is exactly what we are trying to do.

The five conditions which are written into the act are there. They were in the red book and as long as I am Prime Minister they will remain in the laws of the land.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, one of the cornerstones of integrity in government is full disclosure. If the federal government has plans to reduce spending on health care in the short run in order to save medicare in the long run, it should simply say so. That is what the Reform Party did in its taxpayers' budget. Canadians have a right to expect the government to be equally frank and up front.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Is the government planning further reductions in health care spending, yes or no?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we do not spend money on health care. The provincial governments spend the money. It is not us. We have no control over the spending of the money.

We help the provincial governments with their health care systems and in exchange we ask for the five conditions to remain. It is the pride of Canadians to have a health care system which is universally free for everyone, not a system in which the rich have better services than the poor. That is why we are still

spending money on medicare, to ensure that these principles remain.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister began his answer by saying that they were not spending money and ended up by saying that they were spending money. Every time the Prime Minister gives an evasive or political answer to this question it just heightens the suspicion that the federal government has some alternative plan.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Again, I ask for an honest, straightforward, one-word answer.

[Some hon. members]

Order.

[The Speaker]

I am sure that all hon. members take for granted that both the questions and the responses will be honest. That goes without saying. We need not ask either for the question or the answer to be honest.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

I ask the Prime Minister again for a straight, forthright, one-word answer. Is the government planning further reductions in health care transfer payments to the provinces, yes or no?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when I see the leader of the Reform party getting up to talk about the protection of medicare I wonder if Colonel Sanders has become a vegetarian.

What we intend to do with the transfer payments and everything else is clearly written in the budget. If the hon. member reads it he will have the answer.

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage. The minister told Parliament yesterday that he never sent Mr. Manera any letter, nor did his deputy minister, regarding figures other than those contained in the budget. However, today, Mr. Manera claims that, one hour before the budget was tabled, the deputy minister of heritage sent him figures regarding budget cuts hitting the CBC over the next three years to the tune of $266 million.

How can the minister reconcile the statements he made yesterday with those Mr. Manera made today and which are totally contradictory?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, that will not be difficult. You already know what decisions the government made in the budget. As I explained yesterday, the CBC's budget was drawn up for the coming fiscal year. The remaining figures come from the program review that was undertaken last August.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the minister keep on pretending that only the budget figures were given to Mr. Manera, while the document he received from his deputy minister contained information regarding a cabinet decision for the next three years?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, our colleague is quite tenacious. She bounds off on a fishing expedition with lots of energy, yet comes back with nothing more than the refuse from the lake floor that her hook happened to catch on to. The decisions are contained in the budget and the other documents that Mr. Manera may have in his possession must be documents on program review.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

The government knows that the days of billion dollar budgets for the CBC are gone but has failed to admit it to Canadians. The Reform Party has been consistently honest and open about downsizing the CBC.

Yesterday the chairman of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage stated publicly that it would have been more straightforward with Canadians to have included future cuts to the CBC in the budget and that it should have given all of the bad news up front.

Why does the minister not recognize, as does his colleague, that they should have come clean with Canadians about their plans for cutting the CBC?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has made clear that in a budget which is a rigorous one all the agencies of the Canadian government have to participate in bearing the load.

We have done so with the CBC. We have indicated very clearly that there will be a cut next year. We have not removed the cuts which go back to the Mazankowski budget.

There is a clear situation in which the CBC has to bear part of the load and we think that it will be able to do so.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, despite the Prime Minister's promises not to cut the CBC as outlined in the Liberal red book and despite what the hon. minister said, the cuts that have to be made to the CBC must be up front and honestly stated.

The Reform Party has said that the CBC cannot continue as we know it today and the figures in this secret document from the minister-

[The Speaker]

Order. I would ask the hon. member not to use a prop and to please put her question.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, instead of sounding the death knell for the CBC by making blind cuts, why does the hon. minister not realize that a viable future for the CBC lies in the private sector?