Debates of March 28th, 1995

Fisheries

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, can the Prime Minister confirm that, while favouring of course a negotiated settlement with the European Union, Canada will stand firmly by its position and take whatever measures are

necessary to enforce the fishing moratorium on the Grand Banks?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have taken rather dramatic measures so far, but our goal is to find a solution through negotiation and preserve the species on the Grand Banks.

I think that our policy meets the support of all Canadians and we intend to pursue our efforts until we have the assurance that these fish stocks will be preserved for future generations.

National Defence

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the removal of Anne-Marie Doyle as a commissioner on the Somali inquiry because of her connections with Bob Fowler, the former deputy minister of defence and a key figure in the inquiry, raises some disturbing questions.

Her appointment and removal is just another in a long list of events that suggest the minister of defence simply does not know what is going on in his department. He was kept in the dark about the third airborne video. He was not briefed about high level reports on morale and now this.

If the Somalia inquiry commissioners were investigated and chosen for their knowledge and their impartiality, as he said, how could he have possibly been unaware of the connection between Ms. Doyle and Bob Fowler? Everyone else seemed to know about it.

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I find the line of questioning of the hon. leader of the third party to be most disturbing.

Ms. Doyle has agreed to withdraw her name as one of the commissioners. She is a person of great talent, ability and knowledge of government. She would have served with great distinction in that commission. However there have been questions of perception as to whether or not she would be impartial because of her friendship with the former deputy minister.

She decided, although she felt she could discharge her duties as the government expected she would be able to do, that it would be better for her to withdraw at this point in time.

As to the events that led up to the selection of the commissioners, there was much discussion about the suitability of those appropriate. The degree and the longevity of the friendship with the former deputy minister and his wife were not fully explored. If that is a cause for concern on the part of hon. members of the House, I apologize for not having had the information in my possession before we made the decision to select those people.

A replacement will be chosen soon. I suggest we let the commission get on with its job.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians will be wondering whether this was just a bungle for which an apology is sufficient or whether there is something more to it and whether it was planned.

The Minister of National Defence announced his intention to hold an inquiry in November. Bob Fowler did not leave his post as deputy minister until January. Before he left did Mr. Fowler play any role in the drafting of the terms of reference of the inquiry? Did he recommend any names of commissioners to the government?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, this line of inquisitorial questions is absolutely anathema to the Canadian parliamentary system.

We have seen members of that party adopt the most scurrilous of congressional American tactics in dragging the names of public servants through the mud in this country and we will not tolerate that.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are simply doing our job. The minister would do a better service to the House by answering the question.

Surely the minister will acknowledge that any appearance of partiality or connection with the people the Somalia inquiry is investigating undermines the whole purpose of the inquiry.

Could the minister categorically state that Bob Fowler, the former deputy minister of defence, had nothing to do with framing the terms of reference of the inquiry and played no role whatsoever in proposing the name of Anne-Marie Doyle as a possible panel member?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I made a number of inquiries on the suitability of certain individuals for the inquiry. I consulted with some of my cabinet colleagues.

The name of Anne-Marie Doyle had come to my attention as someone who had served with great distinction at the OECD. It was I who put her name forward. I certainly feel that she was a good choice.

With respect to the terms of reference of the inquiry, the terms of reference were made public last week. I worked on the terms of reference personally with the Judge Advocate General, an individual appointed by the Prime Minister of Canada, directly responsible not to the chief of defence staff, not to the deputy minister, but to the minister who stands responsible in the

House. I take responsibility for the terms of reference and stand by them.

If the hon. member finds something wrong with the terms of reference, if he has accusations to make, let him have the guts to make the accusations.

Bosnia

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

The United Nations Protection Force in the former Yugoslavia is facing increasing provocation in Bosnia. This situation has led to Serbian artillery fire against four Muslim security zones placed under the protection of UNPROFOR, namely Sarajevo, Bihac, Tuzla and Gorazde.

Can the minister give us an update on the situation in Bosnia, given that the temporary truce, which was violated, will expire in May, and can he also tell us about the upcoming renewal of the mandate for Canadian peacekeepers?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned about the current situation in the former Yugoslavia. We discussed the issue of personnel rotation in Bosnia and in Croatia. A final decision has not been made with regard to the next two to three months. I believe that the Prime Minister will consult the other party leaders regarding the possibility of holding a debate, perhaps tomorrow evening. Following that, we will maka a decision on our commitment.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary.

Can the minister tell us about the recent meeting of the contact group in London, and can he also tell us if Canada still opposes new air strikes by NATO forces, as suggested by the new general in charge of UNPROFOR?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we have not changed our position on the use of NATO air power. It can be used in certain circumstances under the supervision of the United Nations.

As the hon. member knows, we have been one of the strongest proponents of the dual key mechanism whereby the actual use of that air power is under the auspices of the United Nations, the special representative, Mr. Akashi, in the former Yugoslavia. Nothing has changed to alter our views on the use of NATO air power.

National Defence

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Somalia inquiry was to look into the possibility that a high level cover-up occurred in DND, yet the Prime Minister's office approved the appointment of one of Fowler's oldest friends to the inquiry and strongly defended Mr. Fowler's record in question period.

Since the Prime Minister's actions have prematurely judged Mr. Fowler's role in the Somalia affair, does he not believe he has compromised the integrity of the entire inquiry?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the inquiry involves a lot of people. I am not the type of person who finds someone guilty until there is proof.

I know Mr. Fowler and a lot of people in the Department of National Defence and the armed forces who have been involved in this problem. I am not presuming anybody has done anything wrong until the inquiry is over.

As far as Mr. Fowler is concerned, I have known him a long time. He has been an excellent public servant. He has rendered great service in many departments. He was the deputy minister of defence. He will testify like anyone else. I am not about to cast doubt on the character of any person who works very faithfully for the Government of Canada.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the government has finally bowed to pressure and has arranged for Ms. Doyle to resign from the Somalia inquiry, but the question still remains. I cannot believe that inquiries were not made on this sort of person. Why can the defence minister not anticipate these problems until they blow up in his face? Has the minister lost control of his entire department?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has answered those questions. Ambassador Doyle was very well known in the public service. It is very difficult for a minister to presume that somebody knows somebody else in the department if they do not know them personally. Hundreds of thousands of people work in the government. Even in my own office it is very difficult to know if someone knows someone else.

When this came to light, an investigation was undertaken with the other members of the commission to determine whether she was qualified. There was consultation as to whether it was an impediment. We sought advice from outside and everyone said there was no impediment. However, Ms. Doyle decided for the

good of the inquiry to withdraw her name. It is sad because she is a very competent person.

Criminal Code

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Last week, in a residential neighbourhood in Montreal, a bomb exploded in front of a building belonging to a motorcycle gang. That bombing, which could have injured local residents, was yet another episode in the gang war which has been going on for several months in the Montreal region and which is related to control of the drug trade.

Since the conflicts between various trafficking groups are escalating, will the Minister of Justice amend the Criminal Code to include specific anti-gang provisions?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government has received and is considering suggestions made by the Montreal police as well as other police forces with respect to amendments to the Criminal Code to outlaw the membership in criminal organizations.

I want to point out to the hon. member we are considering those suggestions and I am doing so with the Solicitor General's ministry and the RCMP. We are examining the difficult question of how such an organization can be defined and how membership in such an organization could be determined.

In the meantime, I want to emphasize in response to the question that the criminal activities engaged in by these groups are already proscribed by the Criminal Code, including conspiracy to commit such criminal acts.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in addition to obtaining a definition of a gang or a criminal organization from Justice officials or the police, will the minister, who seems more bent on conducting studies than taking action, pledge to amend the Criminal Code, so as to include specific and concrete measures to deal with these gangs?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is only responsible for the government to look carefully at the implications of the suggestion before responding to the request. If the hon. member has a formula of words which he would care to bring forward for our consideration, we would be happy to receive it.

The challenge is to identify the nature of the group that is to be covered by such a provision, the characteristics the group would have and the method of objectively determining membership. We all know what we want to achieve. The question is how to do it without infringing upon legitimate organizations. If the member has a suggestion, we would be pleased to receive it.

Pearson International Airport

[Ed Harper, Reform, Simcoe Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.

It has been widely reported that the minister's own officials had prepared an extensive analysis of the Pearson airport transaction prior to its cancellation. It clearly established that the selection process was fair and transparent. It ruled out any role of patronage and indicated that the deal was much better in terms of returns to the government than anything the government's own advisers said could be expected.

Can the minister confirm that this document dated November 1993 exists, that he read it and that he passed it on to Mr. Nixon for his review?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately for the Reform Party, we do not have Stephen Leacock working at Transport Canada.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I can say that the report in question, which was dated November 4, and an earlier report had been prepared prior to my becoming the Minister of Transport. I want to indicate to the hon. member that nowhere in that report did it indicate that the deal was one that should be supported by the government.

[Ed Harper, Reform, Simcoe Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Transport confirm that he read the Nixon report? If he did, did he advise the Prime Minister that it contradicted entirely the advice and analysis of the government's own officials and an outside adviser?