Debates of March 30th, 1995

Budget Implementation Act, 1995

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is well spoken by the member who represents the party-

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I know the question which the hon. member for Regina-Qu'Appelle raises is important and serious. I am also cognizant of the fact that the hon. member for Hamilton-Wentworth has been interrupted more often than not since four o'clock for various reasons. However, with one minute remaining, I wish the House would give the hon. member for Hamilton-Wentworth the opportunity to respond.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Elections Canada keeps a record of political donations. It is a legal record. We can search as much as we want and we will not see enormous funding from the Royal Bank or any other large corporation to any political party other than the $1.5 million the Canadian Labour Congress gave to the NDP, which is ten times the donation of any organization to any political party.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be

raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake-Medicare.

[Dale Johnston, Reform, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians are a tough breed and it is a good thing. They will have to be tough to face what lies ahead.

Bill C-76 provides for the legal implementation of the measures contained in the February 1995 budget. Among the initiatives contained in the bill is the new block funding plan which will alter the transfer of payments to provinces for health and education. The passage of Bill C-76 will, as well, facilitate the termination of the Public Utilities Income Transfer Tax Act.

Let us get on with it. The House has wasted enough time and taxpayers' money debating measures which are secondary to the main problem in Canada. While the Liberal government directs its energies to useless mandatory gun registration, the national debt steadily rises.

Today the debt stands at $547,758,477,000. That is approximately $39,000 per taxpayer and over $18,000 per capita. Canadians are worried about their future and they are depending on their elected representatives to straighten out this mess. We had evidence of that earlier in the year when the polls showed that Canadians were ready for a tough budget. They recognized that the debt was out of control and expected the Minister of Finance to bite the bullet. Instead, the finance minister's plans were torpedoed by his left leaning cabinet colleagues.

He is not the first to have his plans watered down. In fact, for the last 20 years successive ministers of finance have declared war on the debt and we have not seen any results. One after another they have succumbed to the whims of political fortune. One by one they have shown disregard for the Canadian taxpayer. Now we are so far in debt that our legacy to our children will not be something to cherish. Their debt riddled inheritance will bring them a future full of fiscal instability.

There was a short-lived budget back in 1979 that dared to be different. The new government of the day inherited the leftover Liberal debt and what was then the highest debt ratio among the major industrialized countries. Some things never change. Canadians saw what happened to that government. It started to put its fiscal house in order. The Liberals defeated that budget and the rest is history.

In 1980 the Liberals regained power and allowed the debt to escalate. When they finally were defeated in 1984 the Tories, who learned their lesson in 1979, took a vow never to be so fiscally responsible that it would jeopardize their power.

In the end, this philosophy helped to bring about not only their defeat but their unprecedented drop into oblivion. Today, even the Canadian economy is sinking faster than that 1979 budget. The Minister of Finance refuses to predict when his budget will be balanced. He continues to talk about balancing the budget but he does not tell us when.

Interest costs on the debt continue to grow. Inevitably this will result in a loss of security for Canadians, robbing them of an independent future. The minister made sure he could meet his deficit target by using what most economists consider to be conservative assumptions.

He is instituting new rolling two-year targets, whatever that means. That way he can change the target as the interest rate fluctuates. He padded his budget with enough hidden taxes to ensure that there would be sufficient tax revenue growth over the next two decades to allow him room to meet his deficit targets.

The bill, as I mentioned earlier, will terminate payments made under the Public Utilities Income Tax Transfer Act. This is one of those hidden personal taxes found in the budget. It is a selective tax on the people of Alberta, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Yukon, but particularly Alberta.

It is estimated that the average Albertan could lose $70 per year in disposable income as a result of this measure. The village of Warburg, which is in my constituency, estimates that the cost to the village will be $4,000. One might say that this is a rather insignificant amount but it is not. It is a 10 per cent increase. When one factors in the impact of the current belt tightening by other levels of government, it adds to the increased costs facing small municipalities in Alberta that are still the backbone of the rural areas.

Why would the government single out these provinces for tax increases? How can one province be taxed and not another? Is this the Liberal version of fairness? Even though Alberta will bear the brunt of the tax, we can only assume that there was nothing untoward in the minister's decision. It is hard to convince residents of Alberta otherwise, especially after they have heard about the study conducted by the University of Calgary economist, which was reported by Canadian Press on Monday.

That study not only confirmed that Quebec was the biggest net winner from Confederation but it also confirmed that Alberta was the biggest net financial loser. Between 1961 and 1992, Quebec received some $168 billion more from the federal treasury than it contributed in other revenues.

Over the same period, the taxpayers of Alberta paid $139 billion more into the federal treasury than they received, thanks in part to the national energy policy. It makes you wonder why we in Alberta want to stay and why they want to go.

We would like to be treated equally but the government seems to have other ideas. It continues to seek out new ways to tax us. Even with the new creative method of deficit accounting and other moneys generated from the budget, the deficit target of 3 per cent of GDP is still far from adequate.

While 3 per cent of GDP would be the lowest deficit in 20 years, it is irrelevant when one considers that the net federal debt has risen to 73 per cent of GDP. Despite the federal reductions outlined in the budget, we cannot hide from the problem of increasing debt.

A year from now the debt will be in excess of $600 billion and the interest on the debt is expected to go up by about $8 billion to top the $50 billion mark.

When the Prime Minister boasts about the 3 per cent deficit target, all he is really saying is that the growth of the debt will be slowed. The debt may grow at a slower rate than it did in the past. That is not really anything to boast about when one considers that the $42 billion spent on interest payments is $4 billion higher than a year ago.

What is the reason for that jump? It is the $2.5 billion for interest on the new debt that has accumulated. Our past deficit now requires interest and it is the $1.5 billion for which higher interest rates are responsible. Program spending will only be reduced by some $12 billion over the next three years while the interest charges will grow by $13 billion. We are not gaining. We are paying more and getting less.

The reality is that Canada has a debt problem, not just a deficit problem. The government was elected 16 months ago. How long do we have to wait before it gets on with tackling the problems of the 20th century? The debt clock is ticking and the Liberals are still fiddling. Someone should tell them that they do not have a lot of time left. Canadians know all too well that if a government does not address these sorts of problems in the first two years of its mandate, it is not likely to implement any difficult decisions in the face of an impending election or in the last half of its mandate.

Canadians are demanding action. They want government and politicians to be accountable. If the government shunned traditional Liberal practice and did the right thing for Canadians, it would find those very Canadians willing to support it.

The problem is that the Liberals do not have a plan to take Canadians to their ultimate goal of deficit elimination and tax reduction. They do not have a plan to solve the labour disputes over a long term. They do not have a long term plan to reform social programs. That is particularly obvious when one looks at the new Canada health and social transfer act. This is the much touted initiative that rolls established programs financing and the Canadian assistance plan into a new block funding arrangement.

The idea may have some merit but it presents more than one dilemma for the provinces. There are no financial projections, for one thing, beyond 1997-98. How can provincial finance ministers make their fiscal projections for the future with any degree of accuracy if they do not know how much they can expect from the federal government?

Canadians want to see some light at the end of the tunnel and they do not want it to be the headlight of an oncoming train. They want to know that the fiscal sacrifices that they have to make will not be done in vain.

That is why the Reform Party took the unprecedented action of presenting a budget that explained how the deficit could be eliminated in three years. It is too bad for Canadians that they elected a government that lacks vision. The only solution the government can come up with is to drop everything on the provinces. We do not think that is fair. By transferring additional tax points to the provinces, our plan offers them a dependable, growing revenue base to fund health and education over the long run.

As a farmer, I have come up with a way to explain the difference between the Reform Party and either the block funding proposal or the existing arrangement. This does not involve teaching a person to fish or giving him a fish. It involves a chicken and an egg.

Under the existing arrangement, the federal government keeps the chicken and gives the provinces a dozen eggs. All the eggs have strings attached. That means the federal government can unilaterally make the decision to give less eggs to the provinces.

The Canada social transfer involves giving the provinces a carton of eggs with one or two eggs missing and still with strings attached to the carton. The federal government continues to hold the chicken and can continue to remove the eggs from the carton it sends to the provinces.

Neither of those situations sound like perfect situations. The Reform Party proposes to give the provinces the chicken.

The government budget tells the provinces their transfers will be cut. We would work with provinces to develop national standards for health care and education. The Reform taxpayers budget showed with reasoned determination Canadians can emerge from the tunnel into the sunlight. The Reform budget offers Canadians hope for the future. Under our plan there will be enough money to support those who are unable to help themselves.

The real threat to social programs is the failure of the Liberal government to control the deficit and the debt. The government will do and say anything to prevent Canadians from realizing this fact.

Reform wants Canadians to know the real facts about the future. This is 1995 and the Liberals are still trying to come to grips with the 20th century while Reformers are planning for the 21st century.

For instance, social security has always been provided only through the delivery of costly bureaucratic centralized government programs and agencies. If the government does not come to grips with this program now social programs will not survive this century.

Reform's vision for the future of social programs contains ideas which will generate affordable, cost effective and people effective programs that will provide greater personal security and freedom from dependence on government for all Canadians.

At the heart of Reform's new social vision for Canada is the concept that we can get more social security for dollars spent by changing the division of responsibility between Canadians and their governments. The Reform budget proposes to balance the budget in three years. The Minister of Finance continues to duck the issue. He knows at the rate he is going he will never bring in a balanced budget. A balanced budget is not simply an end in itself, but a means to an end. It is the first step in building a strong, vibrant economy for future generations.

The Reform budget offers hope for the next generation and a chance to escape from the burden of debt. If quick and decisive action is taken sooner rather than later the impact on employment will be minimal and measures will lead to more permanent positive employment for Canadians than the red book plan of slow deficit reduction.

It is inconceivable how the government could ask Canadians, who have the fastest growing personal tax burden in the industrialized world, to shoulder the burden of deficit reduction without first putting its own house in order.

Last month the government announced an agreement had been reached among Liberal MPs to reform the gold plated MP pension plan. The only really good aspect about the plan was the opting out provision and that provision was intended to pit one Reformer against the other and split our caucus.

I cannot deny that was the strategy but it did not work. It did not work and this Reformer cannot wait for a chance to opt out of that plan.

The government made sure that senior Liberals and youthful cabinet ministers will be protected. At the end of their days here they will receive cash for life courtesy of the beleaguered Canadian taxpayer. The taxpayer can only dream of such financial security. The media charge of a double standard rings pretty true.

Where is the hope? At the rate we are going none of us will live long enough for this mortgage burning ceremony. Canadians are beginning to realize this government is not any better than its predecessors. If the government had any heart, any real concern for Canadians, it would deal with this debt now.

In case there is any question, I will not be supporting the bill.

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Lisgar—Marquette, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague for a tremendous speech addressing the problems.

I would like to ask the member a question since he is the labour critic. Every time we see our economy picking up and we see a glimmer of hope that we can increase our revenues, management and labour seem to have a fight and we disrupt the economy with strikes or lockouts or whatever. I have a feeling with our being involved in transportation if we do not settle this issue very soon our transportation system will not be even able to deliver eggs to the provinces, never mind the chicken.

How would the member address this, because I think it has to be addressed?

[Dale Johnston, Reform, Wetaskiwin, AB]

The Reform Party has introduced in the House a private member's bill dealing with final offer arbitration. It has come to the point, particularly about the sort of disputes my colleague is talking about, at which labour and management have come to rely on back to work legislation. It has therefore become an impediment to the collective bargaining process rather than something that would enhance it.

When the parties are this far apart for 25 months, as we have seen in this past dispute, it is a very good indication they are relying on back to work legislation. Labour knows it will not be out for eight months. It might be out for only eight or ten hours before Parliament starts to talk about back to work legislation. Management also has the same assurance.

There is really no incentive for them to get their positions closer together in real down to earth bargaining. The bill soundly defeated in the House I would appreciate seeing come back from the government side. I hope the Minister of Labour would come up with some similar legislation as as a tool for both labour and management to get them to sharpen their pencils, get their positions as close together as possible. At any time one party or the other could ask an arbitrator to step in and select all of one position or all of the other position. That would encourage the two parties to get as close together as they could in their negotiations on their own.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise today to participate in this debate on Bill C-76, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled on Parliament on February 27, 1995.

In fact, many of the proposals contained in the excellent budget tabled by the Minister of Finance are reflected in this bill. We can see how the budget will be implemented as tabled and approved not only by the vast majority of the hon. members of this House, but also by a large proportion of Canadians.

We are dealing with the bill today but we are also dealing with a motion brought before the House. The bill today is to put in place the budget which has received widespread support from the Canadian public. If members want to know how widespread that support is, I will tell them.

Gallup Canada says the budget is the most popular in all its years of budget polling. This is a record budget in terms of popularity. Roughly half of Canadians, 49 per cent, who are aware of the recent federal budget believe it will strengthen the economy according to a recent Gallup poll; 38 per cent believe it will not strengthen the economy. Almost 50 per cent more think the budget will create more jobs than those who think otherwise. This is the opinion of Canadians. This is a valid opinion.

Let us listen to what many experts say. I do not mean members of the Reform Party, I mean real experts. Jason Myers of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association said: "I am impressed. I applaud the Minister of Finance for what he has done".

"This is a good budget", said Ghislain Dufour, from the Conseil du patronat. My friend across the way will understand what I have just read.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

Our two friends across the way will be delighted to hear that.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

All our friends across the way will. I will not say how many, because that would point out to the presence or absence of members. That is why I will just say "all our friends across the way", out of respect for the authority of the Chair and all parliamentarians.

Let me quote another distinguished Canadian: "This is a real budget built on real measures", said Michel Audet, the president of the Province of Quebec Chamber of Commerce.

Now let us hear more about what Canadians said about this budget. Sherry Cooper, economist at Nesbitt Burns, said it is a terrific budget, there is no smoke and mirrors. I am not quoting the Reform Party MPs here. I am quoting real, knowledgeable people. There is a difference.

Lloyd Atkinson of MT Associates: "This is one of the few budgets I have seen in a very long time where the promise was matched by the reality".

Stephen Van Houten of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association: "This is really the first serious attempt at deficit reduction we have seen in this country in a long, long time". Even Reform members could agree with that.

John Bulloch of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business said the Minister of Finance has the biggest job ever and he came through. Jeff Gundy, an economist at Wood Gundy, said the minister has more than met if not exceeded market's expectation.

When does a budget get this kind or praise? Seldom if ever. This kind of praise has probably not been heard since the last time there was a Liberal government. It certainly was not heard when the Tories were in power.

Let me tell members what the budget does and what we are striving to do with the bill. We are talking about deficit reduction. We are talking about reducing our deficit to 3 per cent of GDP as we promised in the red book and to further reduce it to 1.7 per cent of GDP. We will continue in that line of progress because we as Liberals are committed to doing things right, and we will. We are committed to doing things fairly, and we will.

We are also talking about spending cuts in this budget. We made a promise and, once again, we delivered the goods. We had promised to reduce the budget through expenditure restraint and, for every dollar in new tax revenue, there will be seven in reductions in this budget. Bill C-76 seeks to implement these reductions and implement this budget the Minister of Finance has given us.

At the risk of displeasing certain hon. members opposite, I must say that this budget is very popular with the Canadian people.

Notwithstanding the immense popularity of the budget, Canadians want us to move ahead to cut the costs and save taxpayers dollars in the way we on this side of the House want to.

An amendment to the bill was just moved. It reads as follows: "That Bill C-76 not be read the second time now, but rather in six months time". According to the hon. member opposite, a budget enjoying that much popularity should not be read the second time. It makes no difference to him that Canadians want this budget passed, the Bloc member does not want it. And because he does not want this budget, he is saying: "Never mind that Canadians want this budget, they will not have it. Too bad".

This shows a lack of respect toward Canadian voters who want this budget to be implemented immediately, as the hon. member for the riding of Ontario said it so eloquently.

Canadians want this budget passed by the House.

Earlier today an official from the Department of Finance was telling me it would cost millions of dollars a week if we did not have the bill passed by the end of June. Millions of dollars a week would not be saved. Millions of dollars a week which we promised Canadians we would save would not be realized if the House does not adopt the motion today.

That is what the Bloc Quebecois is asking us to do, not to read the bill now and to do so six months hence; not to save the millions of dollars we want to save, not to have the cutbacks in expenditures we want to make and not to reduce the deficit in the way we are trying to do. That is what it wants. It does not want us to succeed. It wants us to fail.

Why does it want us to fail? I do not understand. Why would any hon. member in the House not want the budget to go ahead? I cannot understand it at all.

As for Reform Party members, they want the budget to include more cuts. As you know, they also wanted to eliminate old age pensions. You cannot trust these people. We, Liberal members, want a budget which is realistic, fair and equitable. It was not easy to draft this budget and it will not be easy to implement it either.

However, Canadians realize that this budget is fair. They are saying: "We may have to tighten our belt, but so will everyone else, including the government, the private sector and others. Since this is a joint effort for the good of our country, we are prepared to do it". So, everyone is prepared to make a sacrifice, except Bloc Quebecois members, who want to table a motion to put the Minister of Finance's budget on the back burner.

I say to the members of the Bloc: go to your ridings and ask your constituents if they oppose the budget tabled by the Minister of Finance in this House, on February 27. As I said earlier, the overwhelming majority of Canadians will tell you that this is a very good budget.

Let me give you a few statistics about the budget. Again, this is from Gallup Canada. Just listen, you will see how positive the reaction was to this budget. "In 1985-during the Mulroney years-28 per cent of Canadians felt that the budget would get the economy back on track, while 47 per cent did not think so". In other words, Canadians opposed that year's budget in a proportion of two-to-one.

Let us now go 1989, for example, when the Leader of the Opposition was a Conservative minister. In 1989, 26 per cent of Canadians felt that the budget of that year would get the economy back on track, while 53 per cent did not think so. Did the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean vote against that budget? Of course not. He supported it, even though more than half of all Canadians opposed it.

Today, 49 per cent of Canadians feel that this budget will get the economy back on track, while 38 per cent do not think so. There are a lot more Canadians everywhere who think that this budget is good. It was well-received, even in the riding of the member opposite. Yet, what does the Bloc Quebecois propose today? It proposes a motion which, again, reads: "That Bill C-76, an Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 27, 1995, be not read a second time but that it be read a second time this day six months hence".

It seems that some members of the Bloc Quebecois feel they should support a budget if the public is against it and condemn the budget if the public supports it. Does that make sense to you, Mr. Speaker?

This is Bloc logic. They do everything in reverse. Just Bloc logic. Well, I think the hon. member should listen to what Canadians are saying, and I see there are more and more of them who seem to be interested in what is being said this afternoon. More and more people are showing an interest, not necessarily in what I am saying, but in the provisions of Bill C-76. I am willing to bet that many parliamentarians are here to find out why the motion presented by the finance critic for the Bloc Quebecois is wrong, and no doubt they are going to say why hon. member should vote with the government to obtain speedy passage of this bill.

Let the finance critic for the Bloc Quebecois rise in his seat immediately to tell me if I am wrong. Mr. Speaker, as you can see, we have yet to hear from the hon. member, as I speak. Nothing. Complete silence on the other side of the House-

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. We know the Chief Whip for the government is quick on his feet but I think he knows perfectly well that we cannot refer in this House to the absence of another member, even in jest.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The hon. member for Lévis has certainly raised a very important point regarding the customs and practices of this House, and I am sure that considering his experience, the Chief Whip is very familiar with this rule. He may proceed.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would never mention the absence of a member, and I would certainly not belabour the point. I will now continue my comments, and I would urge hon. members to listen carefully, because as they probably know, the

vast majority of Canadians support this budget and the passage of Bill C-76.

The last thing Canadians want right now is for us to say collectively that we have a great idea, let us wait six months before passing the budget. Mr. Speaker, could you sell that in your riding? I do not think my constituents would be convinced, after telling them a month ago that we have a budget, if I said now we have changed our minds and we will not implement it for six months. That is what the Bloc Québecois wants us to do.

I will wait to see how the Reform Party votes on Bill C-76. That will be interesting. Will its members vote to delay the cost cutting measures for six months, thereby further increasing the deficit? That will be an interesting. We will find out in a few days.

Assuming the amendment of the Bloc Québecois is defeated, will Reform members vote against cost cutting, saving taxpayers dollars and trying to put the economy back on track, as we have been doing and will continue to do through Bill C-76? That is the challenge right now. I will bet there are some Reform members caucusing as we speak, discussing this important issue. If they are not caucusing because they are all here in the House, perhaps after we adjourn tonight they will caucus. Perhaps the leader of the Reform Party and other Reform members will have a caucus to discuss how they will vote on Bill C-76.

I can give them advice. The so-called budget they presented to Canadians would have been a disaster. What they wanted to do was cancel pensions for virtually all seniors. That is not the way to go. The numbers which did not add up in their budget are not the way to go.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Where is your plan?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Our plan was tabled in the House on February 27. Our bill is right now before the Canadian public, Bill C-76.

We know where the Liberals stand. We know the Liberals want to reduce the deficit, put the economy back on track, restore integrity in government, like we said we would do in the red book and like we are delivering.

We want to know which side the Reform Party is on. How will it vote on the amendment not to have these cost cutting measures? Will it vote for the amendment, thereby depriving Canadians of these cost cutting measures? Will it support the Bloc Quebecois?

On the other hand, once the amendment is disposed of will it vote with the Liberals as an effort to join all Canadians or at least the vast majority in terms of putting in place these budgetary measures? Will it again vote not to cut the deficit the way we want to do, presumably meaning it does not want for the deficit to be cut?

I am proud to be voting for Bill C-76, although not because it is the sweetest of medicine. Some of the measures are not the sweetest of medicine. Some of the measures are strong but will make the patient, the Canadian economy, better in the short run and in the long run.

If we can do that working together to make the economy better, we can provide jobs for a large number of Canadians. That is why we were sent here.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will try to explain, as requested by the hon. member in his speech, why our motion asks for a six-month's postponement for this bill.

Quebecers and Canadians are starting to realize what this budget is about and to notice the very real impact of this budget and the severe cuts it contains. Let me give a few examples. I was told earlier that the people in my riding and other ridings in Quebec agreed with these cuts. So what are these people doing? They call us to ask questions about certain decisions. I intend to ask the hon. member about that.

First, they decided to cut funding, without prior notice, to all agencies engaged in international co-operation, across Quebec and across Canada. No more money will be given to international co-operation agencies. Why did they do that? Because they want to keep them from making a connection between poverty in the South and poverty in the North and from realizing that they will have to develop some kind of solidarity between the two, because this government has no truck with solidarity. All it does is increase the gap between rich and poor, and that is what the members of an agency in my riding called CREM are starting to realize, and there are plenty of agencies like that across Canada.

Another example. They decided to cut all experimental research on sheep. All ovine research in Canada, some of which was being done at the Experimental Farm in La Pocatière, for an industry that is developing rapidly, now that sheep growers are increasing market share in Canada. It is now 25 per cent. It has been going up for several years. They say that the funding freeze will save money in the short term. The result: no more research and development, which means that people in Quebec and Alberta who raise sheep will have to go it alone. It is no longer the government's business. And you call that useful cuts and the right thing to do? Maybe you should have taxed the banks first.

I have another example, and I would appreciate your comments. The latest news is the decision to make cuts at Canada Employment Centres: terminals instead of people. Do you think that is a wise decision? Would you not agree that a six-month postponement is a good idea after all?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite ought to know that his colleague, the same one who a little earlier today, and I can see him, moved a motion not to proceed with this bill, said many weeks ago that he wanted to cut what he called fat in government, a kind of shapeless mass, according to

the hon. member, as if there were this huge mountain of fat we could cut into.

Government is not like that. I was a public servant for years, and that is not how things work. When cuts are made, it means something is taken out. There is no such thing as cuts that are not felt.

Of course, if we try to save money, we have to cut services. What we have to do now is do our very best to put the economy back on track. We have made a good start: 421,000 new jobs since this government came to power, and this is only the beginning. Things are going to get better all the time.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

If I may be allowed a personal opinion, I wish we could go on.

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business, as listed on today's Order Paper.