Debates of March 30th, 1995

Maintaining Peacekeepers In The Former Yugoslavia

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the government has been very accommodating over the last year and a half in terms of having these debates.

The debate last night was not a restricted one. The hon. member spoke rather eloquently and we appreciate support for the continuation of our troops in Bosnia and Croatia.

I do not think he can fault the government for providing opportunities for these kinds of debates. He also has the vehicle of opposition days if he wants to get into it in greater detail.

Canadian Armed Forces

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence. Yesterday, the minister offhandedly minimized the importance of the many cases of suicide within the Canadian Forces, particularly among soldiers returning from peacekeeping missions, including those in the former Yugoslavia. The minister's attitude is surprising, to say the least.

How does the Minister of National Defence explain the fact that members of the military are more inclined to turn to outside help rather than use military resources in order to overcome their difficulties and adjustment problems upon returning from a mission?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I did not say what the hon. member said I did. I was asked yesterday by one of the members of the Reform Party about an apparent increase in suicides, which is of great concern to us, at the base in Valcartier.

While it is true the suicide rate in the armed forces is lower than that of the population as a whole, there is no question that in the last year there has been a slight increase in suicides at the base in Valcartier.

Some preliminary work has been done on that to see whether there is any cause and effect. A Reform member yesterday asserted this had something to do with deployment in Bosnia and Croatia.

We cannot make that statement because there does not seem to be that tie in. Most of the suicides that occur, including these, deal with domestic reasons, family matters. We want to get more information, more analysis. That will require more extensive interviews. We will try to get full information for hon. members so they can have their fears allayed.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to point out to the minister that the suicide rate at the base in Valcartier alone is higher than in the population as a whole.

Does the minister not recognize that if Canadian soldiers returning from peacekeeping missions refuse to rely on the in-house resources available at the Department of National

Defence, it is because they are afraid of compromising their careers within the Canadian Forces?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, there have been increased programs that the departments have put in place in the last year or two at the various bases to deal with the stress of members, especially those who have been serving in peacekeeping.

If we look at the last seven or eight years, when Canada has been quite involved in peacekeeping assignments, the suicide rate has not increased abnormally and there is no established link between service overseas and suicide.

As I said yesterday, even one death is of concern to all of us and we will try to get more facts so that all hon. members can appreciate the true nature of the situation. If there is cause and effect, we will have to do something about it. I cannot categorically state that today, but we will get the information.

Peacekeeping

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to peacekeeping in Croatia and Bosnia, it has been the Reform Party's position that the government should develop clear criteria to determine whether Canada should involve itself in such situations, how long we should stay and when we should get out. Last December we proposed four minimal conditions for continuing our presence in Bosnia, only one of which has been met, which is why we counsel withdrawal.

Will the Minister of National Defence outline the minimal conditions which he feels must be met in order to justify keeping our peacekeepers in Croatia and Bosnia?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, every mission has to be viewed on its own merits. Obviously the criteria are somewhat subjective. It depends on the hostilities in question. It depends on the threat and the requirement made by the United Nations.

I would like to remind the hon. leader of the Reform Party that the special joint committee looked into this matter last year and made some very useful recommendations about peacekeeping in general, some of which have been adopted by the government.

It is important that we make sure before we go into any situation we understand the strategic reason for entering an engagement, the costs and the likelihood of success.

That is why when we engaged in Rwanda last year for six months we extended it by a few months. We have engaged in Haiti for six months.

I want to remind the hon. member the original commitment to Bosnia and Croatia was made by the previous government. I understand why it felt pressure to take part in that engagement. We have a difficult situation, one that is difficult to extract the United Nations from. It is a commitment we are prepared to continue indefinitely.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the minister said one of his criterion was not wanting to let the UN down. Surely a more important criterion is not wanting to let Canadian peacekeepers down.

Our peacekeepers are not adequately equipped to do the job. They are not getting the leadership they deserve from the minister and the government, and morale is at an all time low. There have been six suicides in six months in the royal 22nd regiment, the same regiment that will be returning later this month.

What concrete steps is the minister taking to remedy the morale problems and the equipment deficiencies being experienced by our peacekeepers in Croatia and Bosnia?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, what a sad situation when the leader of one of Canada's political parties on the eve of re-engagement in Croatia and Bosnia, for which up to 2,000 people will be leaving their base in Valcartier, makes unfounded allegations about the nature of equipment and morale. I totally reject these assertions.

My parliamentary secretary has very kindly given me a copy of the special joint committee report. On page 29 there are certain criteria outlined adopted by the committee. His members signed on to that report. These criteria are followed by the government.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we simply asked the minister what he was doing to bolster the position of our people in Croatia and Bosnia. That is hardly undermining their position.

All Canadians share a concern that a withdrawal of peacekeepers from Croatia and Bosnia without adequate replacement could result in wholesale tragedy for innocent victims. If that is our priority concern, should the government not have been doing a great deal more to mobilize world opinion against atrocities being committed there, particularly to mobilize European support for peacekeeping?

What is the government doing to mobilize world opinion against atrocities in former Yugoslavia and to pressure our

European allies in whose backyard this is occurring to play a bigger role in the peacekeeping and humanitarian mission there?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I am surprised at the hon. member's comments. I believe 40 per cent of the troops now in Yugoslavia are from European nations. I would like him to make that statement to the ministers of defence and foreign affairs from Britain, France, Holland, Spain and other countries in Europe discharging their duties very effectively in that theatre.

Immigration

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

Yesterday, Canadian authorities apprehended Tsara Rahmani, a 30-year old Algerian student, upon his arrival at Mirabel airport. French authorities had expelled him because they suspected him of belonging to the radical wing of the Islamic Salvation Front.

Since this individual is strongly suspected of terrorist activities, does the minister intend to take immediate action by launching an investigation and, if need be, deporting him quickly from this country?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, it is true the person in question was apprehended by our officials at Mirabel airport at approximately eight o'clock last night. He was questioned immediately by immigration and CSIS officials. Those officials have also been in touch with European agents. We have detained him overnight. The questioning continues.

I certainly appreciate the kind of support the member is offering. Obviously this country should not harbour individuals who have ill motives. Once we establish the facts, we will move accordingly.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in complete contrast to Mr. Rahmani's case, a thousand Algerians already in Canada are claiming refugee status because they fear falling victim to the surge in fundamentalist violence if they are deported to Algeria. Does the minister intend to give special consideration to their fate?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, it is something we are closely monitoring. Certainly in terms of the inland determination system, it is true that a number of Algerians have sought refugee status. They are moving through the province of Quebec particularly and are going through the Immigration and Refugee Board.

We are also in concert with the UNHCR, the prime international vehicle for overseas resettlement. I have had occasion to discuss this with the Minister of Foreign Affairs as well as the Prime Minister in the last number of months. We certainly are prepared to be part of an international movement in terms of facilitating those in greatest need. However, we should distinguish that from the case we are currently looking at.

Canadian Armed Forces

[Bob Ringma, Reform, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday in response to my question on the tragic suicides reported at Valcartier the minister stated: "The rate of suicides is lower in the armed forces than it is in the population as a whole".

However a review of relevant Statistics Canada data shows a suicide rate of .02 per cent, whereas the rate at Valcartier for the past year is .12 per cent, or six times higher. It should also be noted that the suicide rate at Valcartier among peacekeeping forces sent to the former Yugoslavia is still three times higher than in the population at large.

Given these facts, will the minister not agree this issue must be addressed before more troops are sent to Bosnia and Croatia?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member of the Reform Party is distorting what I said. I said yesterday that the suicide rate in the Canadian Armed Forces was lower than the suicide rate generally in the population of Canada and that is absolutely true.

I have acknowledged that there has been an increase in suicides specifically at that one military base. In response to my colleague from Charlevoix I gave the assurance to the House that we will try to get more information to see what causes are related to these specific suicides and the increase in suicides in the last 12 months.

[Bob Ringma, Reform, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I am encouraged by part of the minister's response that we will get more information.

The deployment regulations state that personnel must have 18 months between peacekeeping rotations, yet since 1992 Valcartier has sent 5,000 troops to the former Yugoslavia. Given the manpower situation at the base, it is clear this regulation is being disregarded.

Given the tragic consequences this appears to be having on the troops, will the minister explain why deployment regulations are being ignored?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, two weeks ago I visited the base at Valcartier.

I saw many of the men and women in action preparing for their assignment. I specifically asked a number of them as to whether they had gone before. Some said yes. I asked: "Does it bother you to go back again?" They said: "No. We want the challenge to serve our country". That is the attitude of these young men and women who are serving our country.

The hon. member and his colleagues should start to rethink their strategy in trying to undermine the efforts of our soldiers fighting to establish world peace in the former Yugoslavia.

Kanesatake Reserve

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, Kanesatake Mohawk leader Jerry Peltier said that he was still planning to go ahead with his plans for a casino in Kanesatake. At the same time, he indicated that he would not negotiate the terms and conditions under which this casino can be opened with the Quebec government, but only with the federal government, on a government-to-government basis.

Does the Prime Minister confirm that, contrary to how things were done in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, where negotiations were held with the provincial government, his government has agreed to negotiate the opening of a casino in Kanesatake directly with the band council, as requested by Jerry Peltier?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the statement was made by Mr. Peltier. I do not think that any firm commitment was made in this respect by the Minister of Indian Affairs on behalf of the federal government.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I ask the Prime Minister this: in his capacity as leader of the government, can he undertake not to allow his government to go over the head of the Quebec government and negotiate the opening of a casino in Kanesatake with the band council, when he knows full well that casinos, lotteries and games clearly come under provincial jurisdiction?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I think there are discussions are under way between the Minister of Indian Affairs and people from that reserve who wish to set up a casino, but I have heard nothing about negotiations concerning definite plans to open one. This is, of course, a place where relations with the Government of Quebec are somewhat strained, as we all know. Therefore, caution is in order and, personally, I will wait to hear from the Minister of Indian Affairs before commenting any further.

National Defence

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the head of the Somalia inquiry, Justice Gilles Letourneau, has stated that the Privy Council Office was informed personally by Anne-Marie Doyle about her conflict of interest with Robert Fowler.

Why did the Privy Council Office not tell the defence minister and why was the government's ethics counsellor not immediately asked to rule on the matter?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I answered most of these questions yesterday in reply to the leader of the Reform Party.

As I have said publicly on a number of occasions, I was not in full possession of the facts with respect to this individual. It is something that was very unfortunate and we regret it.

We will make sure in choosing a replacement for Ms. Doyle that we will find someone of equal stature. We will be a little more thorough in checking all aspects so that we do not have these questions emanating from the Reform Party. They are diverting attention from the very essential work the inquiry has to do.