House of Commons Hansard #188 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was budget.

Topics

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John O'Reilly Liberal Victoria—Haliburton, ON

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise to bring some reality to the fact that the Canadian public is in tune with and in favour of the recent budget.

At a recent meeting in Haliburton I had the pleasure of speaking to a group from the chambers of commerce from Haliburton to the Quebec border. Most of them are managers, some operate chambers of commerce, are CEOs and so forth. They agreed that for the first time since the 1940s there was actually a budget cut, that it was not just a freeze, it was not something that would be taken off at the next election, it was not something that was going to change. It was actually an alternate course the government has decided to embark on. They applauded that.

In researching the budget in order to speak to the chamber of commerce and find something to talk about that I thought would be of interest to them, I did look at the reduction of business subsidies. These are dear to most of our hearts. We all believe that businesses should not be financed by federal governments. We have talked about that many times.

A key principle of the 1995 budget, as the Minister of Finance said, was to redesign the role of government in the economy to fit the size of the pocketbook and the priorities of our people. The decision dramatically reduces subsidies to businesses and shows how that principle is at work.

The simple fact is that subsidies often did more harm to businesses than help. It is a problem business leaders themselves have often pointed to. This was confirmed in the 1994 OECD job studies, which said that subsidies tend to operate in exactly the opposite way from what is needed: they slow rather than stimulate adjustment, they discourage rather than encourage innovation, and they tend to become permanent.

That is why the budget cuts business subsidies by 60 per cent, from $3.8 billion last year to $1.5 billion by 1997-98. Areas where subsidies will drop sharply include agriculture and transportation. Again, we can no longer afford subsidies that were designed decades ago and that today are actually undercutting adaptation, diversification, and competitiveness.

Western Grain Transportation Act subsidies are being eliminated, for a savings of $2.6 billion over five years. But because of the scope of this change there will be transition measures. For example, we will make a one-time payment of $1.6 billion to prairie farmer landowners and invest a further $300 million to help establish a more efficient grain handling and transportation system.

As well, in line with the recent decision of federal and provincial agriculture ministers, we will develop a core national whole farm package. This shared cost program will replace current programs based on individual commodities. This will encourage innovation and diversification while producing a 30 per cent reduction in federal contributions to agricultural safety nets.

The Atlantic freight subsidies will also be eliminated, for five-year savings of $500 million. This again will be balanced by a five-year transition program, including helping to modernize the highway system in Atlantic Canada and eastern Quebec.

Of course our cuts to subsidies extend far beyond agriculture and transportation. At Industry Canada subsidies will fall by half, from $525 million in 1994-95 to $264 million in three years. Remaining spending will focus on initiatives in high growth sectors and in partnerships with the private sector.

A new role for the regional development agencies will see them focusing on small and medium sized enterprises. This assistance will rely on loans and repayable contributions rather than direct subsidies. As a result, subsidies from these agencies, the western diversification, the Federal Office of Regional Development for Quebec, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, will drop from $700 million to $234 million.

Subsidies to cultural industries are also being reduced. This includes an eight per cent reduction in the postal subsidy, which reduces mailing costs for certain books and magazines.

As well, we are eliminating the Public Utilities Income Tax Transfer Act, which returns to provinces the taxes paid by privately owned utilities. As a result, major energy subsidies will virtually disappear, dropping from $410 million now to $8 million.

These subsidy cuts are vital components in restoring Canada's fiscal health. We also recognize that there are times and places where governments can and should assist the private sector in today's fast changing global environment. For example, the government will continue to play an appropriate role in supporting exports for companies in sectors facing intense international competition.

The government will be working with Canada's banks between now and the fall to elaborate meaningful benchmarks regarding small business lending.

A survey in my riding provided overwhelming support for the budget. In fact most would have gone further. Eighty per cent approved the cuts made and are looking for Canada to live within the fiscal constraints of the reality of our income.

The results of my survey include to this date 1,167 people as of yesterday. One of the questions was: Do you agree with the government department spending cuts announced in the 1995 budget? That was a very simple question. The response was no, 18 per cent; yes, 73.6 per cent.

Do you believe the government spending cuts went too far? Yes, 8.7 per cent; no, 83.9 per cent. Do you believe that the government's spending cuts did not go far enough? Yes, 70 per cent; no, 19.6 per cent. Do you support the proposed changes to MPs' pensions? The survey indicated what those changes were. Yes, 90.9 per cent.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

4:55 p.m.

An hon. member

Is that not interesting?

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

4:55 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

I wonder about that.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

John O'Reilly Liberal Victoria—Haliburton, ON

Is that not interesting? They support them. No, 6.8 per cent.

The other one I really liked: Do you believe that your member of Parliament should opt out of the pension program provided for members of Parliament? Yes, 28 per cent; no, 82 per cent.

What are the people of Canada saying about the budget? They are saying that they support it. What are they saying about members' pension plans? They are saying that they support those cuts.

So the doom and gloom from across the way is just that, doom and gloom. I am not sorry we have taken the Reform agenda away from them. It does not bother me at all.

There are 205 rookies in Parliament who came here to make a difference. This budget made a difference. The Liberal Party made a difference, and we will continue to provide good government for Canadian people, which is what they asked for and what they elected us for and what we are doing.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

4:55 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, it gives me pleasure to rise today to speak against Bill C-76, the budget implementation act.

I would like to make a couple of comments before I get into my presentation. I just cannot help but do this.

I was interested when the government whip in his presentation was making all those quotes about what people said about this magnificent government budget. One quote that he apparently forgot was the very important quote from Moody's. The quote from Moody's of course was: "This budget is too little, too late, and unrealistic." It is going to cost all Canadian taxpayers millions if not billions of dollars because Moody's did give that verdict on the budget.

I was also interested in the survey results just quoted by the member for Victoria-Haliburton, where his constituents said that they supported the budget, that they supported the cuts. They want cuts. The very next question was that the cuts did not go far enough. That is what his people responded to, and that is what the Canadian people are saying in responding to the budget. It made some cuts. They were not deep enough. They did not go far enough.

I guess it is appropriate to be talking about the budget today because today marks a milestone. The debt passed $550 billion today, not a milestone we can be very proud of. In fact we should all be ashamed of it.

The word guts is not a word I use, but it was used by the Prime Minister the other day in responding to a question in this House. I am going to use it today in suggesting that this budget lacked guts. It did not do the things that have to be done. The courage was not there to do it. What is more, the budget lacked vision.

We have wasted a year and a half. We had our first budget and now we have come up with the second stage of a two-part budget that does nothing to address the most serious problem we have in this country. In that wasted year and a half, what has happened to the debt? The debt has gone from $490 billion to just over $550 billion. Is that an accomplishment? I do not think so.

The message a year ago in the budget was don't worry, be happy. Because of that, we are $60 billion deeper in debt. Think about that first budget. It did not help the situation; it aggravated it. It brought out the much heralded infrastructure program: $6 billion to buy your way to prosperity. It is the old shell game. Two for one. What a deal. "We will give you one, and you get two for one". The same taxpayer is being bribed with his own money.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Why did the member say it was a good program?

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

The government realized the infrastructure program was not good. It has now been extended supposedly because the municipalities have been asking for it, but that was not stated in the budget.

Unbelievably we reduced tobacco taxes that first year. Here we are with our backs to the wall, in debt up to our eyeballs and we gave away what was admitted at the time to be about $300 million. The government did not understand the seriousness of the problem. We gave away $300 million. That does not even begin to touch the health costs implicit in encouraging people to start smoking again by reducing the taxes.

However it was not $300 million. It cost the Canadian taxpayers $850 million in an attempt to drive the bad guys away. "We are only going to do this until the bad guys disappear, then we are going to put the tax back". The Liberals were dreaming in technicolour at a time when they should not have been dreaming, they should have been facing reality.

The last thing we were involved in thanks to this government was the Pearson mess. We are still debating whether it is a Liberal scandal or a Tory scandal. While we are doing that the airport is deteriorating. The jobs that could have been created there have not been created. In the long term it will cost jobs across Canada. That is all because of the government failing to face reality and take action.

The other comment I wanted to address at the beginning was: "We did not do this; we just took over. It was the Conservatives that started all this. They did not address the deficit". The present government was in opposition. I cannot recall a great deal of emphasis from them in those years to cut spending. As a matter of fact, I detected the exact opposite. Whenever the Conservative government, realizing the magnitude of the problem, tried to do something about it like revising the UI program, the howls of indignation from the Liberals were unbelievable.

It is a little hypocritical to sit over there and say: "It is not us. We did not cause the deficit." They sure did not help by supporting the cuts the Tories were trying to make. Not to mention the government was in place when we started this slide down the debt hole. When the Liberals were defeated in 1984 the debt at that point was just under $200 billion and all Conservative efforts to reduce it failed miserably because they were not getting the support they needed from the opposition.

Now we come to the budget. A year ago it was: "Don't worry, be happy". Now Canadians are being told: "It is a serious situation. It is life threatening. We have to do something about it. We have to cut spending". They blew it big time. The one thing the Liberals had to do was show leadership by example. They had to address our gold plated MP pension plan and they did not do it. They blew big time any credibility they had with the Canadian people in that budget.

It is interesting the MP pension cuts were not in the budget. I am sure the finance minister looked at that program and said: "Forget it. It would be a disaster in my budget".

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5 p.m.

Reform

Charlie Penson Reform Peace River, AB

You have got to pay the price.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

You have to pay the price. You have to show leadership by example. It was not there, so the budget started off on a very bad note. They just blew all credibility.

Let us talk about the budget. In 1997 the debt will be $650 billion. That is the bottom line. That is an accomplishment? That is reality. That is a fact. Interest rates on it amount to $55 billion to $60 billion. That is reality. That is a fact. We will still be overspending by $25 billion. That is reality. That is an accomplishment? It is a disaster we are going to have to face and deal with.

The IMF brought out a study this week on growth and the world economy. It showed Canada's growth at 4.3 per cent in 1995 and 2.6 per cent in 1996. Bad news is coming. Are we prepared for it? I suggest not. Just below the growth in the world economy is how Canada's debt stacks up. It is compared to our other trading partners. Canada is the absolute worst and worsening.

Canada has the distinction of being the world's largest offshore debtor. That debt has increased. During the last year the offshore debt has gone from $319 billion to $341 billion. Twenty-eight billion dollars in interest payments flow out of Canada to those countries that have been supporting our lavish lifestyle. It does not do a thing for the economy. We are not in control of our own destiny. That control is in the hands of the people who have been supporting that lavish lifestyle we have been enjoying while we lived beyond our means.

What will be the future costs of the Moody's downgrade? As I suggested at the beginning, it is going to be in the area of millions if not billions of dollars. We cannot say we were not warned. We got a warning shot before the budget. Moody's said: "Your 3 per cent target is far too low and we want you to give us a date when you are going to get to zero". Rolling two-year targets are laughable.

I can see myself going to my bank manager and saying: "I know I am in debt, but will you keep lending me money if I give you a rolling two-year target?" He would throw me out of his office after he had a fit of hysterics.

Several clouds are on the horizon that are not faced in the budget and of course there is what can happen in the United States.

I will close by saying that the situation prompts me to recall buying my first home. The neighbour next door had all the trappings, lovely furnishings. I thought he must be making a lot of money. Reality was the creditors moving in and closing him down because he was doing it with his credit card. That is what we are doing and it could hurt our future generations.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I remind the next member that we have only eight minutes left.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to speak to Bill C-76.

I just read something in Quorum : ``A new fever for frugality''. That is what we are talking about today. Among other things I have learned in my last 18 months as a politician are three words: imbalance, fluctuation and disturbance. These are three words that politicians hate to hear. They are also the basis for innovative and creative thinking. That is what the budget is showing right now.

The 1994-95 estimates show the first reduction in budgetary requirements in 20 years. In the next fiscal year spending here will drop by 6 per cent, and 3 per cent each year after. Senior employees on the House staff have been cut by 15 per cent. MPs remuneration, salaries, as an example, have been frozen and will remain frozen.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Tell us about the pension plan.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

The pension plan has been cut back also. I get a kick out of how cynical the member for Simcoe Centre can be at times. The member and I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to tour base Borden. This will give members a rough idea of the innovation I am talking about.

With the cuts that have been made to the Department of National Defence, base Borden at the present time is working in conjunction with Georgian College. The member knows this because we saw it. Base Borden is conducting welding classes as a way of utilizing the facilities. It is holding catering courses and courses for firefighting and for paramedical training. The member knows this.

This is all part of budget cuts and innovative thinking. This is what I am talking about if the member would just listen. We wanted to make sure the budget was fair to the taxpayer.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Reform

Charlie Penson Reform Peace River, AB

Did you run your farm like that?

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

I went through this with my farm.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

Order. I would ask members to address their remarks to the Chair.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Madam Speaker, I apologize. The member asked if that was the way I ran my farm. In 1984 I was a pig farmer. The draconian cuts he and his party are talking about would be the same as me saying that I am not going to pay the taxes on my farm, or my hydro bill or buy any clothes this year.

What they are talking about are targets that cannot be made. One of the things laid out in the budget is the fact that we are keeping our targets. In fact, we have set targets that are based on very pessimistic growth. Even the business community said that we were being pessimistic. Our targets are capped.

If the target is too low, by the time we get to 3 per cent of the GDP by 1996-97, which is what we promised in the red book and from our own pessimistic outlook, then if we go by what is happening in the business community and what they have been projecting, we will exceed 3 per cent. Is that not what it is all about, having a government that the voters know is a credible government if it comes forward with a budget, sets targets and achieves those targets?

For the last nine years voters have watched governments making promises in different budgets. Those promises were not kept. We were at the point where they were becoming cynical and saying that this was just another promise which was not credible.

That is not what this government is all about. We are where we are in the polls today because we are credible. We are making promises that we can keep.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

What about the GST?

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

The GST will be worked out later this year. It is in process right now. The member can laugh. I love the way the member for Simcoe Centre tries to work this around. He stood up and chastised the infrastructure program. In fact, a few months ago he made a statement in the House questioning the minister responsible. However, at the same time, I found some correspondence he had written the mayor of Barrie praising the program. It is cynicism like that which gives politicians a bad name.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Tell the whole story, do not just give little quotes.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

I am ashamed of the member.

The budget has a number of advantages. We have pledged that in 1995-96 the debt will not exceed $32.7 billion. We want that reduced to 3 per cent of the GDP or $24.3 billion for 1996-97. This is something that was laid down in the Maastricht treaty. We recognize that a large percentage of our money is borrowed from the international market and it is our responsibility to make that figure.

That is one of the reasons why the Canadian dollar today is strong, interest rates within the country are stable and why we are the leader in the G-7 nations in exporting. We are an exporting nation. If we are going to keep our standard of living we have to export. Thirty million people within this country without exports just does not cut it. Therefore, we have to be an efficient exporting nation. We have to be ISO 9000 effective. We have to take every advantage. We have to be innovative and creative which is exactly what the budget is.

I hope that the member across the way will see the light and vote for Bill C-76.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

It being 5.15 p.m., pursuant to an order made earlier today, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 78(3), it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill now before the House.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Budget Implementation Act, 1995Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.