Debates of April 26th, 1995

Telecommunications

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry answered this question yesterday.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the Prime Minister deny that this is a clear case of favouritism, given that, in the CRTC's opinion, cabinet orders in council compromise the independence and integrity of its licensing process to such an extent that the government exposes itself to the risk of being taken to court over these retroactive orders?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the legislation allows cabinet some say concerning the CRTC's decisions. In the circumstances, cabinet has reviewed the situation and made a decision which will be made public later this afternoon.

Atlantic Groundfish Strategy

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this week the federal debt passed the $550 billion mark. Yet the government's mismanagement of taxpayers' money continues. The latest example, TAGS, the Atlantic groundfish strategy with $1.9 billion committed over five years, is a program already headed for a $385 million shortfall. Worst of all, it provides little in the way of concrete results.

My question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. How much more federal money is the government planning to commit to this ill designed and unsuccessful program?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, we are facing the largest layoff in the history of Canada as a result of the collapse of the Atlantic fishery. It is the responsibility of any federal government that cares about the real needs of people in that region to respond in the most effective way possible.

The government established a budget last year of $1.9 billion that would help us to reduce the core fishery down to a point where it is a manageable size, which the minister of fisheries is responsible for. We also undertook to provide a variety of means by which people in that fishery could secure other alternative means of livelihood.

In that period of time we have provided counselling for upward of 25,000 people. We have over 15,000 people enrolled in training programs. We have a number-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

The question is: How much more money? How much more money? Answer the question.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, apparently the Reform Party does not want an answer to a very serious question. Perhaps most important is that the hon. member was probably not listening in the House as I replied yesterday. For thousands of individuals we restored a sense of hope at a time when they are facing a real calamity in their lives and the lives of their families.

That is what the federal government is doing, not the meanspirited nit-picking of the hon. leader of the third party.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we all know that TAGS is a fiscal disaster, but the most tragic aspect of the program is the fact that it fails the very people it was designed to help.

When TAGS was announced it was supposed to break the cycle of dependency. The government predicted not that 25,000 fishery workers would be counselled but that they would be retrained for new jobs in new industries. Yet $40 million later HRD officials admit that less than 12,000 people have even participated in the program, that precious few have found any work, and that now money is being diverted from the training aspects of the program back into dependency support.

How does the minister plan to change TAGS so as to produce the results and the hope for affected Canadians in Atlantic Canada about whom he professes to be so passionately concerned?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as I said in my first response, we are dealing with probably the most massive, large scale adjustment program ever faced by the country.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

It is not working.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member says: "It is not working". He does not know. Like most things, he simply does not know. He is simply making it up and engaging in fiction, not fact.

We have example after example of people who have started their own businesses, been retrained for new occupations, have started projects to develop new resource conservation and have received mobility grants.

I challenge the hon. member to come with me to Atlantic Canada to talk to the people down there to find out just how well we are beginning to provide an alternative option for the people of Atlantic Canada.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the minister could tell me when we are going to go, I am perfectly willing to go.

TAGS is part of a bigger project. It was originally billed as a test run for the whole human resources approach to social security reform. The test has been a failure. TAGS was meant to tie income support to training, education and retraining, and it has not done that. Instead it is another example of a Liberal social megaproject that simply does not work. It is based on principles that do not work.

Has the minister learned anything-and I know this is a challenging question-from his disastrous social experiment? How will the failure of TAGS affect his overall program of social policy reform?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, one thing I have learned is that the last person in Canada to listen to about what works in social reform is the hon. leader of the third party.

In response to the kind of major challenges we faced in developing those adjustment programs, we commissioned a major study by Price Waterhouse that gave us a report on examining where the program was working and where it was not. I can report to hon. members of the House that my department has acted on every one of the recommendations made in the Price Waterhouse study.

Telecommunications

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

On Monday, the Minister received an opinion from the CRTC concerning the cabinet's draft directives on satellite broadcasting. According to the CRTC, the federal government would be open to legal proceedings, because the cabinet's directives are too specific and would call into question the integrity of the CRTC, a quasi legal, autonomous license-granting body.

My question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage, who is responsible for the CRTC. Would he tell us whether he informed the Prime Minister of the content of the CRTC's opinion on the proposed directive at yesterday's cabinet meeting?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I believe the Prime Minister's answer to opposition questions indicates clearly that the matter was out of the question.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the Prime Minister.

Does the Prime Minister not consider it at least inappropriate that, for the first time in its history, cabinet is changing a CRTC decision and that this historical first just happens to benefit his son-in-law?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, we will be tabling a document setting out the government's position this afternoon in the House.

I understand the opposition's impatience, but it will just be a few hours more. Then there will be days and weeks for questions.

Atlantic Groundfish Strategy

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, last year in debate Reformers called the Atlantic

groundfish strategy, or TAGS, a job security program for tinkering, meddling bureaucrats and further that handouts do nothing for people. They destroy people and they destroy their spirit and will.

The Minister of Human Resources Development said words to this effect: "Trust us. We know what we are doing". Now Atlantic Canadians have learned that this big government has failed them once again.

Can the minister explain why he chose to ignore our advice last June and proceed with such a flawed program? If you had listened to us you would not be in this big mess right now.

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I would ask you always to make your remarks to the Chair.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I will tell you why we proceeded with the Atlantic groundfish strategy. Over 40,000 men and women in the Atlantic region had just lost their livelihood. They needed help in securing enough income to keep their families and themselves in the basic necessities. They also needed to be given certain tools for retraining, for counselling, for new employment and for alternatives that would provide them over time the opportunity to find an alternative way of making a living.

That is why we proceeded with the Atlantic groundfish strategy. That is what the groundfish strategy is doing today.

Rather than having the Reform Party try to make a blanket condemnation of the noble efforts being made by all kinds of people in the Atlantic fishery to find a new life for themselves, they should join in to help, rather than trying to hinder the program.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the minister claims that his program is working.

If the minister will not listen to us, here is what some other people are saying. The senior director for TAGS says this about the training component of the program: "Much of it has led to nothing and it is training for what?". The chair of the committee calls it lunacy and crazy.

Why does the minister not acknowledge that on the job training is many times more effective than institutional training and build his job creation strategies on the strengths of small businesses in Atlantic Canada?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member had any understanding at all, he would realize that you have to have small businesses first for people to start.

We are dealing with between 40,000 and 50,000 people whose families for 400 years have earned their living in the fishery. All of a sudden for a variety of reasons, many of which we have seen such as overfishing by foreign nations, it has finally come to an end. It is a calamity beyond the scope of anything we have faced before. It requires major adjustment and changes. We are doing our best to meet that.

I used examples and I will repeat them for the hon. member. Rather than listening to press commentary about what was said, talk to the woman who has just received a series of new training programs and has started her own business as a result. Listen to the family in Newfoundland that has now got new people started in their own businesses. Talk to people who are now doing college education courses to find new alternatives. Listen to the people who are being affected by the programs, not to some half-baked commentary in the Globe and Mail .

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I appeal to you to make both the questions and the answers a little more precise.

National Defence

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of National Defence confirmed that his government is about to acquire four British conventional submarines. He even stated that the negotiations with British authorities were practically wrapped up.

How can the Minister of National Defence justify spending $1.6 billion on four secondhand submarines, given the government's current financial situation?