Debates of April 5th, 1995

Canada Social Transfer

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, in the last budget, we gave the federal and provincial governments a mechanism to tailor their deficits to their financial means. It was very clear that this was a joint effort, and we gave the provinces the requisite prior notice.

The issue of national standards is very clear. We said in the budget that we were not going to abolish the Canada Health Act nor tamper with the issue of residency for social assistance. The Minister of Human Resources Development will negotiate all other issues with the provinces. He is going to sit down with them and discuss the issues.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, two things are clear. First, the Minister of Finance is cutting transfer payments, second, he is trying to get a stranglehold on provincial programs to serve his own purposes. Everybody agrees that this much is obvious.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Will the Minister of Finance admit that withdrawing his financial commitment and changing the rules go hand in hand? He is putting this in practice now with the Canada social transfer, in order to give himself the means to ensure compliance with current and future national standards, for example in the areas of health care, post-secondary education and social assistance.

Will he at last reveal his intentions?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the one thing that is clear to me is that we have given the provinces what they asked for: flexibility to reduce their costs. We have given them the flexibility that they need to improve the management of their programs. Therefore, we have met the expectations of the provinces and of Canadians.

Indian Affairs

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, three of my Reform colleagues have just returned from a fact finding tour of the indiscriminate logging that has taken place on the Stoney Reserve in Alberta.

The member for North Island-Powell River, who has over 20 years of forestry experience, said he has never witnessed as much timber cut in one place at one time.

The minister of Indian affairs, through the Indian Act and the Indian timber regulations, has a legal obligation to ensure sound logging practices and prevent environmental disasters on reserves. The minister knew about the logging on this reserve yet did nothing to stop it.

Why did the minister not act to prevent the destruction of the forest on the Stoney Reserve in Alberta?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the assertion of the Reform leader is incorrect. We did act. We do have someone on site. We

have a forester there. We have fly-overs. I went out personally and told the chief what I thought of what he was doing.

We are meeting with the chiefs. I do not think what they did was correct. We told them so very forthrightly. If they do the right thing, as they do in northern Saskatchewan or at the National Forestry Institute that the aboriginal people have, then we will support them. However, when they do it incorrectly we are there to tell them so.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, when I asked why the minister did not act I meant why does he not enforce his department's own forestry management plans?

The department issued permits for 600 truckloads of logs per year. Since last spring, however, at least 14,000 truckloads of old growth forest has been harvested. Department officials knew of the flagrant violations of the management plan but refused to stop it.

Why did the minister's officials not discharge their responsibilities to ensure sound logging practices on the Stoney Reserve in Alberta?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, there is an under-assertion that these were totally aboriginal people. White cutters came to the native people and said: "Here is the money, let us take your trees".

Let us talk about who these people are. They are not specifically aboriginal people. If you do not want to listen, fine. However, if you want to hear the answer I will give it to you.

The RCMP are on the reserve investigating. I cannot get involved with the RCMP investigation in any way, shape or form. Charges may or may not be laid. However, we went in there with force and we do not think what was done was right.

[The Speaker]

Ever so gently, I remind members to please address your answers and the questions to the chair.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are not blaming the people on the Stoney Reserve. We are not blaming anyone. We are asking how come the department itself did not enforce its own rules.

Through the inactions of the minister and his department, he has permitted the destruction of an old growth forest on the Stoney Reserve. Because of the federal government's apparent unwillingness to treat all Canadians equally with respect to environmental regulations, Canadians have lost trees that stood for centuries. This cannot be allowed to happen again.

How does the minister intend to ensure that the forest management plans endorsed by his department are not only sound but strictly enforced?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, once again the leader of the Reform is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

At his press conference when he tried to explain his policy, which no one understood, he said that my department has to be dismantled and decentralized in its function of funding transfers to local aboriginal agencies and governments.

[Some hon. members]

More, more.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Having said that, he sent his Greek chorus throughout B.C. This is what the church said about what they have done.

"The Anglican bishop for northern B.C. has accused the region's Reform MPs of breeding unnecessary fear about the Nishga land claim negotiations. A series of public meetings sponsored by Skeena MP, Mike Scott, is spreading half truths and anxieties among whites about the Nishga land claims".

"The Bishop of Caledonia, Don Hannen said that that is exactly what is being done here today". It is always the Indians' fault, nobody else's. These are half truths.

The Reform leader should talk to his minions and have them go out there and tell the truth to the people of Canada.

[The Speaker]

I am sure there is no question that all members are interested in the truth. We speak the truth in this House.

Winnipeg Jets

[Jean-Paul Marchand, Bloc, Québec-Est, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification.

The future of certain Canadian team franchises in the National Hockey League may be jeopardized by financial difficulties and limited markets. According to some sources, the Minister of Human Resources Development promised to give the Winnipeg Jets $10 million in federal funds for the construction of a new amphitheatre.

Does the minister responsible for Western economic diversification confirm that discussions took place or are under way to grant $10 million to build a new amphitheatre for the Winnipeg Jets?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to confirm that the private sector group that is engaged in raising private sector funds has made an application under the infrastructure program similar to those applications that were submitted by the cities of

Quebec, Calgary, Edmonton and many others for similar help in developing facilities.

I would suggest that the private sector initiative in Winnipeg is no different from that which took place in the member's home city.

[Jean-Paul Marchand, Bloc, Québec-Est, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I gather that the answer is "yes" for the Winnipeg Jets.

Is the minister in a position to confirm that, depending on the results of the provincial election in Manitoba, the federal government could contribute as much as $20 million?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will recall very well how the federal government was a major contributor in his home city for the development of the Centre de congrès, which is a very important addition to that community.

A number of other cities across the country have benefited from both the development of job creation and also the development of new facilities coming out of the infrastructure program.

It is certainly the right of any city to make an application on infrastructure. That is what they are doing in Winnipeg. They are simply following the good example of the good people of Quebec City.

Indian Affairs

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question follows the question from my leader and is for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

I would like to quickly say that we foster sensible dialogue, and in our aboriginal town halls in British Columbia offered a very welcome and refreshing point of view.

I would like the minister, in response to the question about the Stoney Reserve, to tell the House the current market value of the timber removed in the last year and how he intends to collect revenues lost to the band plus the reduced stream of future revenues accruing to the band, which has now been lost.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member from the Reform is asking for a quite a bit of detail.

I would appreciate if he would let me know about this detail before question period. I will take the question as notice and get him as much information as I can.

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the timber removed from the reserve in the last 12 months conservatively exceeds $35 million. The minister's department knew logging at Stoney Reserve exceeded the permits last April, one year ago.

Can the minister tell the House who is liable for these lost revenues?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I have already responded to the Reform leader on three separate questions. My friend should read the notes when they come out.

I might add this. This is the same member who said when we brought in the Sahtu legislation that the sky would fall, but it did not. This is the same member who said when we brought in the Manitoba dismantling that the sky would fall, but it did not. This is the same member who said what we did in the Yukon would not work and it has. This is the same member going around B.C. saying land claims should be stopped in B.C.

We did not listen to him on three separate occasions and we are not going to listen to him now.

Cida

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

CIDA recently announced, at a week's notice, its intention to stop funding organizations involved in public awareness of international development that do not participate in overseas projects.

Does the Minister of Foreign Affairs not realize that, in so doing, the government is chopping nearly half the international development network available to NGOs in Canada, although funds provided to these organizations amount to only half of one per cent of the official development assistance budget?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has to understand that choices had to be made and it was decided to focus on poorer countries. In

that context, CIDA was right of course in deciding to stop subsidizing public awareness organizations here, in Canada, because, if they realize how important public awareness of development assistance is, they do not have to be paid to do the job.