House of Commons Hansard #206 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was federal.

Topics

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Mr. Speaker, to start with, I would like to tell my colleague from Charlevoix that I am in complete agreement with him, especially on what he said in the conclusion of his speech. Not knowing that he would talk in the House about the workers in Charlevoix, and the relevance of the $2 coin, I will start my speech this way.

I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the Liberals had given in to the joint demands of the Bloc and of the Reform Party and agreed to an emergency debate on Bosnia, but not before this evening. In spite of the fact that 326 hostages, including 55 Canadians, are being held in Bosnia, that we have learned that the head of Bosnian diplomacy was killed yesterday, that the conflict has led to 200,000 deaths, that the Reform Party and the Bloc Quebecois are asking for an emergency debate to be held immediately on a matter of extreme urgency, we are told that there are too many emergencies, too many important debates, such as this one on the $2 coin.

We now know what the priorities of our colleagues opposite are. Canadians soldiers and UN troops have to take a back seat to the debate on the relevance of the $2 coin. In this context, I will be pleased to spend a few minutes discussing whether the $2 bill should be maintained or withdrawn from currency.

First, I would be pleased to provide you with a few facts and figures. Today, in Canada, it costs around $30 million a year to produce, print and issue $2 bills. They have approximately a one year life expectancy, some do not last as long, but the average life expectancy is around one year; as I said, the total cost of producing $2 bills is approximately $30 million.

So, we question and rightfully so-the thinkers and mandarins are probably conducting studies on the subject and they will spend tens of thousands of dollars, maybe millions-whether we should continue this great Canadian tradition of a $2 bill with the Queen's effigy.

A $2 coin could save $250 million over a 20-year period. Therefore, many Canadians will say: "Down with the $2 bill and up with the $2 coin which will make us save $250 million over 20 years". A simple decision.

However, we should go a little deeper and look at more rational arguments. Earlier we were talking about technology. If we do not proceed with a $2 coin will we still have nickels, dimes, quarters and loonies? Why not apply technology to this? Do not try to make us believe in a lot of things which make no sense.

First of all, the Royal Canadian Mint and it alone will save money, not you and me, not the taxpayers, not the merchants and certainly not the people operating vending machines.

There was no lobbying from vending machine manufacturers because the whole thing was obvious. We had estimations based on the same principle as the figures given to us earlier. As the member for Charlevoix said, it is estimated that the $2 coin will necessarily cost vending machine manufacturers around $300 million.

This is an estimate just as our colleagues opposite used the word "estimated" to say that there will be savings of around $250 million. Why an estimate? Because there has been no serious study on a change like the introduction of a $2 coin.

Therefore, I and the Bloc Quebecois propose to abolish the $2 bill or at least to undertake a serious study showing the real savings that could result from the replacement of the $2 bill with a $2 coin.

While bringing these changes to the Canadian monetary system we could take the opportunity to abolish the penny, which costs one and a half cents to produce. There are presently an estimated 10 billion of those coins in circulation. Ten billion one cent coins which cost one and a half cents each to produce. It is important to repeat it. Lets put an end to that waste by eliminating the one cent coin and the two dollar bill. For once the government could recover that money, that is tens of

millions of dollars a year, and put it clearly and totally into a definite policy designed to create jobs and help the poor.

Tens of millions of dollars, even billions of dollars, are currently being cut in transfer payments to provinces and systems such as these will be allowed to continue.

What we are saying is that we will save tens of millions of dollars by abolishing the $2 bills, but instead of losing this amount in overall public spending, we should develop a good framework and put in place a specific program of job creation or assistance to poor people.

In view of the current economic and social situation, we have neither the right nor the means to invest funds in areas such as these, when thousands of our fellow citizens live below the poverty line and destitute people are knocking at our doors every day.

To quote only one example, a lady came to my riding office. This 62-year old lady cannot get old age benefits from the federal government and does not have any salary insurance because she never had a job. Many women of her generation stayed at home, so they are not eligible for salary insurance. So, this woman is getting welfare payments of $642 a month. She came to me asking: "Is there a solution to my problem?" Situations such as these, how many dozens are there in my riding, how many thousands are there in Quebec and in Canada? And here we are discussing changing $2 coins for paper bills. As my colleague for Charlevoix was saying earlier, I think that it is a shame to brag about such things in the House.

Do not tell me that the government has no other possibility or place to spend the savings that could be made, to help people like that woman or thousands of others in our ridings, rather than perpetuating a timeworn system or replace it with a system just as inappropriate, because the $2 coin would be inappropriate. Our American neighbours have no $2 bill, and they are not any worse off for it. The same can be said of other countries. It is a very easy system to understand.

The Royal Canadian Mint-someone talked earlier about the Royal Quebec Mint but there is no such thing-says its position is based on a survey. Before we go to the questions and comments period, it is important to put this survey in its true context. This survey was biased because of the questions it contained. You will ask how it was biased. Simply because it asked people if they were in favour of keeping the $2 bill or if they preferred to save tens of millions of dollars. People were never asked if they were in favour of abolishing the $2 denomination, because the answer was known already. Quebecers are used to biased surveys. They have seen many of them in the past.

People never had a chance to ask themselves if they were for or against the abolition of the $2 denomination. I am convinced that we cannot allow such a waste of public and private money at a time when our society faces serious problems and our country is sick.

My speech is a drop in the ocean of words spoken in this House on this debate. However, it is through such savings that we must show our concern for the population. If we wish to restore people's confidence in politics, politicians and the House of Commons, minor debates that may not seem very important can enable us to save tens of millions of dollars per year, as we have seen in this case, perhaps even hundreds of millions of dollars with one cent coins and two dollar bills, in order to ensure proper redistribution among our businesses, create jobs and help the disadvantaged, as I said earlier.

Concrete examples such as those I just listed would allow us to save millions of dollars and hopefully create thousands of jobs.

In closing, simply eliminating the $2 denomination would save some $30 million a year and the one cent coin, several millions of dollars. In addition, except for children with piggy banks, everyone would be happy not to have these coins in their pockets.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Cochrane—Superior Ontario

Liberal

Réginald Bélair LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, I have a very simple question to ask my hon. colleague for Terrebonne. He nevertheless recognizes that rather substantial savings will be made, to the tune of $250 million. I would like to say a few words about the metal content of the new coin. It will be made of copper, aluminum and nickel. Would it be more acceptable to the Bloc members if the base material for this coin came from Quebec?

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Let me just say this to my hon. colleague that I do not know the periodical chart by heart; perhaps a chocolate coin wrapped in gold foil would be better. Seriously, our point is that the $2 coin your are proposing makes no sense. The people of Canada know it. Content-whether nickel, plutonium or what not-is not the issue, but rather the basis or rationale for this bill. Tell me which clause deals with coin alloys in the bill before us, then I will take your question seriously.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour will please say yea.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the division bells having rung:

Royal Canadian Mint ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Pursuant to Standing Order 45(5)( a ), the recorded division on this motion stands deferred until 5.30 p.m. tomorrow.

The House resumed from May 15 consideration of the motion that Bill C-88, an act to implement the agreement on internal trade, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Agreement On Internal Trade Implementation ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I will finish the speech I started a couple of weeks ago on Bill C-88, an act to implement an agreement on internal trade.

Just to set the stage, Bill C-88 is like Bill C-85, which is the bill dealing with pension reform. There is a lot more fluff than real substance in this bill. Indeed it is another failure to deal with the serious problems that we have in Canada.

Past federal governments have preoccupied themselves with provincial concerns such as social programs. They have spent time rewriting our Constitution over and over while failing to live by the one already in place. They have stepped on provinces, taken their resource revenues and used them to fund their grant infrastructure projects, but they have not enforced the constitutional provisions which require free trade among provinces.

The federal government has also been and continues to be the instigator or accomplice in a number of interprovincial barriers. Because of various fiscal transfer programs such as regional development and block funding, Ottawa manages to hide the true costs to provincial residents of the barriers their provinces have erected.

If jobs are killed in one province due to barriers, then federal welfare dollars and federal grants to inefficient business help to alleviate the fiscal pain that a province would otherwise suffer. In fact, the more inefficient a province is, the more it is compensated by Ottawa. There is no incentive here for a province to correct its mistakes.

Ottawa also inhibits the free movement of labour. The unemployment insurance scheme the Liberals so cherish has provided incentives for the unemployed to remain in place rather than moving to regions where jobs are more plentiful. This is indisputably borne out by the facts.

For example, our Atlantic provinces continue to suffer from chronic higher unemployment than the rest of the country. This is due in most part to the incentive provided by unemployment insurance for the unemployed to remain in place. The problem is especially severe because in regions that do not fare worse than others, the federal government has increased the benefits available, sinking those who use the benefits further into dependency on the government.

We have been hearing for a long time now about social program reform and the wonderful job our human resources development minister is doing, but we have yet to see meaningful changes to the system that will actually give a hand up to Canadians rather than just a hand out. When this happens, consumers will see more clearly that certain provincial policies have worked to their detriment and that eliminating barriers is in everyone's best interests.

It is long past time for the federal government to take leadership on these issues. This problem is costing the economy billions of dollars and thousands of jobs. Yes, the Liberals were given a mandate to govern using the methods they find most appropriate, but this was based on a series of promised outcomes contained in the red book, most of which have been broken.

The red ink book promised: "A Liberal government will be committed to the elimination of interprovincial trade barriers within Canada and will address this issue urgently". Where is the elimination of trade barriers which was so clearly promised in the election rhetoric? Yes, it looks fairly certain that a few barriers may be reduced with this agreement but as I have already pointed out, new barriers could also arise.

We are a long, long way from barrier elimination. Based on the current pace of progress, we are not going to see this promise fulfilled by the next election. This is the time the Canadian people will have an opportunity to judge these Liberals for their failure to keep their promises. By then the Liberal inaction will have cost billions more dollars and will have prevented thousands of Canadians on the welfare and unemployment lists from finding meaningful employment.

Reformers have the policies and the people to implement a Canada-wide free trade plan. If the Liberals will not do this, then I believe the Canadian people will give Reformers the mandate to do it.

What are the problems I am talking about? Where are the barriers today? Obviously, I am not going to list each of the several hundred, but I would like to mention a few major barriers that must come down quickly.

The first barrier which comes to mind is one that has a large effect on employment in my riding. There is a modern brewery in Simcoe Centre that employs hundreds of Canadians. Over the years this brewery could have employed more people, expanded its operations and even become efficient enough to compete with major American brewers. This did not happen because its market has been restricted by trade walls erected by provinces, including Ontario, in an attempt to protect their local brewers.

The protectionism that insulated and sustained these inefficient brewers for so long will now be the death of many of them. International trade pressures are already forcing smaller, inefficient breweries out of business. Brewing is a $9.6 billion retail industry in Canada so even small reductions in production costs due to greater economies of scale will produce better prices for consumers and a more competitive economy.

To their credit, some brewers have taken the initiative and have used our external free trade agreements to their benefit. As a result, it is now easier to find certain New Brunswick brands of beer on store shelves in San Antonio and Los Angeles than it is to find them in Toronto or Montreal. It saddens me that this is the current twisted reality.

Unfortunately, the success story I just described has a downside at least for those breweries that are not ready to compete. American brewers are gaining more and more access to our domestic beer market through GATT, NAFTA and free trade and will force out those who cannot compete.

As an example, a single brewery in Colorado Springs, Colorado produces all the beer under a particular label for the entire United States market, a market of 250 million people. The facility is so large it ships bulk product 3,000 kilometres to Virginia for canning. Then it is distributed up and down the east coast of the United States. How can we expect breweries that produce only enough product for a few hundred thousand consumers to remain in business? It is difficult to compete with that economy of scale.

I believe Canadians wish to see these impediments to freedom done away with and receive the most efficient and economic value possible for their hard earned wages. Beer is such an obvious area of concern for consumers that I was amazed to learn the industry had been exempted from the provincial agreement altogether. We need to focus serious efforts in this area or risk losing thousands more jobs in an increasingly competitive world.

Another barrier of major importance that must be dealt with quickly is the barrier each province erects when conducting its own government procurement. The provinces have a long history of purchasing from within their own borders regardless of cost. This raises the cost of purchasing.

According to the Consumers' Association of Canada some provinces pay up to 10 per cent more for local products, which in turn raises government expenditure and taxes. It also costs jobs in other provinces because the most efficient producers cannot sell outside their own provinces. Some jobs may be protected locally but just like the brewing industry, these local producers are insulated and inefficient.

The higher taxes affect all Canadians and cost more jobs in total than attempting to protect the local industry they will save.

One writer on economics remarked 200 years ago: "It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family never to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to make than to buy. The tailor does not attempt to make his own shoes, but buys them from the shoemaker. The shoemaker does not attempt to make his own clothes, but employs a tailor. The farmer attempts to make neither the one nor the other, but employs those who can.

"All of them find it for their interest to employ their whole industry in a way in which they have some advantage over their neighbours, and to purchase with part of its produce, whatever else they have occasion for. What is prudence in the conduct of every private family can scarce be folly in that of a great kingdom".

Adam Smith wrote that in The Wealth of Nations . Yet it would seem that centuries later our brilliant political elite has not yet been able to grasp this simple truth.

The industry minister attempted to achieve a deal on the issue of government procurement but due to the shortsightedness of some provinces their agreement was window dressing only. Crown corporations which do much of the procurement in question are completely exempt from this arrangement. With all the exemptions available elsewhere in the agreement it is unclear if there will be any meaningful improvement in government procurement either.

It is important that we make it a high priority to get the provinces back to the table and to remove these barriers to competitiveness. Interprovincial barriers to trade and financial services create once again a higher cost to consumers, cost financial institutions their competitive position and cost Canadians jobs.

This also affects another major employer of my riding, a trust company which finds restrictions on selling its services outside Ontario. Conversely, trusts from outside Ontario also find difficult and expensive barriers to entry to the Ontario financial markets.

Trust companies find barriers to trade in the different regulations each province sets up. A highest common denominator approach must be taken to selling services in more than one market, thereby increasing costs. A standard set of regulations for all provinces would eliminate administrative overhead,

would produce more competitiveness, would lower costs for consumers and ultimately would create more jobs.

A further barrier to trade is the restriction placed on various types of labour mobility between provinces. This is a particular concern to an area such as Ottawa-Hull which straddles a provincial boundary but it still affects other Canadians in serious ways.

Many of us are familiar with the dispute which erupted last year between Ontario and Quebec on the issue of construction. It was one of many trade barriers which prevented professionals and labourers from offering their services across Canada. It meant that competition was reduced and it resulted in higher costs and taxes for consumers. Fortunately, Ontario and Quebec managed to resolve their differences on this single issue to the benefit of both.

That deal is the exception rather than the rule. It is time for us to dispense with these issues once and for all. For generations we have allowed the inefficiencies of small, protected, regional markets in many goods and services to constrict the economy, hurt our political and cultural objectives and cost us jobs.

Labour mobility is an area of trade which has been opened up between Canada and the United States under the free trade agreement. Once again as with beer, professionals such as accountants and engineers can more easily ply their trade between Ontario and the American states than they can between Ontario and Quebec. If we are to remain a developed country we must keep on developing our resources, especially our human resources, or risk losing them to more developed countries.

It is important to look at other examples of trade arrangements to determine what is best for us. The United States is a good example of a country where wide open commerce between jurisdictions negotiated and enforced by a national government has led to greater prosperity for the whole nation. Barriers were challenged and eliminated in the United States early in the history of the country and it has prospered ever since. The previous example of the Colorado brewery is a good example of the reason that Canadians need the same freedoms.

In Canada we have spent great energy concentrating on our external trading relationships which account for 25 per cent of our economy. The Americans count on exports for only 8 per cent of their economy and yet are a far more prosperous nation. There is certainly a message for Canada in this. We must become more focused on reducing barriers when it comes to domestic trade.

The European Union is a modern day example of a trading relationship which has sprung out of the realization that free trade benefits everyone regardless of language or region. There are some real lessons for Canadians in this. The European Union has not only established free trade in goods, produce and capital, but also has free trade in labour as well. The citizens of any European country now have the right to work in any other European country. Because labour was made more transferable, common certification had to be implemented in a number of areas.

While the system has not achieved perfection yet, it is an improvement in the lives of all citizens. Surely if Europeans of different languages and ethnic backgrounds can achieve such an agreement over the borders of nations, then Canadians must be able to resolve the few differences which exist between provinces.

In present day Canada there is over $146 billion worth of trade between the provinces. There are also at least 500 barriers to interprovincial trade in Canada and each one costs jobs, money, growth and competitiveness which has hurt all Canadians directly. They are forced to pay higher prices for products such as eggs, milk, beer and financial services. They have to pay higher taxes in order that the provincial government can favour inefficient local producers over best value for money producers elsewhere.

These barriers are a problem which can be solved unilaterally in many cases by a determined federal government. Even small improvements in reducing barriers can mean big gains for the country. It is time for us to get serious about dealing with them.

Reformers have written policies on these issues. I will share them with the House.

The Reform Party supports the removal of interprovincial barriers to trade through agreements which include trade dispute settlement mechanisms among the provinces. Should the provinces fail to co-operate in the removal of interprovincial trade barriers, the Reform Party supports constitutional challenges to such impediments wherever possible.

I believe this statement is self-explanatory and I mentioned earlier that Reformers have a plan to deal with trade barriers. It is the constitutional law already set in place to deal with exactly such problems.

Section 121 of the British North America Act states: "All articles of the growth, produce, or manufacture of any one of the provinces shall, from and after the union, be admitted free into each of the other provinces". Also, section 91 of the British North America Act states: "The exclusive legislative authority of the Parliament of Canada extends to the regulation of trade and commerce".

It is obvious from these two sections that interprovincial trade is an exclusive federal jurisdiction and the provinces are violating the intent of the Constitution when they erect barriers to trade. A Reform government would do everything necessary to enforce these constitutional principles.

The industry minister stated, after signing the deal last July, that: "Our governments have achieved this voluntarily, not through arbitrary and contentious attempts to use federal powers or other forms of coercion". This statement underlines the fundamental difference between Liberals and Reformers. Liberals, always anxious never to rock the boat or step on any toes, are happy with tiny steps or even stepping backward if they think they can put a good face on it.

Reformers are much more interested in dealing with reality and solving problems. It is plain to see that the provinces are violating the intent of the Constitution. In the best interest of all Canadians, Reformers wish to see the situation rectified. If this means using some federal power or coercion to see fundamental constitutional law complied with, then so be it.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, also a constitutional appendix, states:

Every citizen or permanent resident of Canada has the right to move to and take up residence in any province and to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.

This right has been successfully used in court challenges to strike down provincial laws that prevent professionals from working in different jurisdictions. Most notable was the case of a New Brunswick accountant who wished to conduct some affairs in P.E.I. Because island law prohibited him from working there, he took P.E.I. to court and won, based on his charter mobility right.

Reformers support the free movement of labour across provincial borders. We believe the government must work quickly to ensure that these goals are achieved.

In analysing the facts, it is all very well and good to say that Canadians have these rights, but what businessman has the time, money and patience to pursue court cases in every jurisdiction just so he can go to work? This has to be recognized as an impediment to the free flow of labour and it is past time for the provinces to remove these impediments. They have significantly added to the cost of doing business and have deterred new business. We benefit our American cousins when we abuse our own citizenry. Many now look south to expand because the walls east and west in Canada are too high to climb over.

Governments, not private citizens, have the responsibility to deal with these issues and to do so urgently, as the industry minister stated.

Reformers find themselves unable to support a bill that lends credibility to the first ministers' failure of last summer. We demand that the federal government enforce the Constitution which contains the necessary authority to allow free trade between the provinces, especially section 121, section 91 and the charter mobility right and to do everything in its power to ensure that all provincial barriers are eliminated.

We also demand that federal programs that compensate for provincial barriers by redistributing wealth and programs that inhibit the free trade of labour be eliminated.

The bottom line is that interprovincial trade barriers mean lost jobs for Canadians, higher taxes and product costs, and a less competitive economy with which to face the world.

As I said at the opening of my remarks, Bill C-88, approving the trade agreement in its present form is a major disappointment for two major reasons. The first is that it fails to give Canadians a golden opportunity to create the thousands of jobs so desperately needed today.

The second and perhaps more important reason is that it is another broken red book promise. This is at a time when all of us here should be doing all we can to restore that lost trust between voters and the politicians. Another lost opportunity, another step backward.

For all the reasons stated, I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word "that" and substituting the following therefor:

That this House declines to give second reading to Bill C-88, an act to implement the agreement on internal trade because it fails to eliminate all interprovincial trade barriers.

Agreement On Internal Trade Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The amendment of the member for Simcoe Centre is receivable.

Agreement On Internal Trade Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in the debate on this very important bill, which has almost gone unnoticed and has the potential to alter the very basis of internal trade in Canada. That is why I welcome this opportunity to speak on Bill C-88, an act to implement the Agreement on Internal Trade.

We will recall that this agreement is the fruit of very difficult, very strenuous negotiations that went on from 1987 to July 1994, less than a year ago, when 11 governments, together with the governments of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories, finally came to an agreement. The purpose of the agreement was obviously to enter into some kind of domestic free trade agreement for Canada.

This agreement affects 11 main fields of economic activity, which I shall list for the sake of clarity. These fields of activity are as follows: government procurement, investments, work

force mobility, consumer standards, agri-food production, alcoholic beverages, natural resources processing, communications, transportation, energy and environmental protection.

At this stage, I want to tell this House that the Bloc Quebecois, as the official opposition, is for internal trade and, in that sense, supports the bill. On the other hand, the Bloc Quebecois flatly rejects the role, powers and importance the federal government gives itself in this bill. And this is what we will be illustrating.

We disagree with this bill in three regards: first, the context in which this bill was introduced; second, the actual wording of clause 9, which is the main clause in Bill C-88; and third, the rationale behind clause 9.

First, with respect to the context in which Bill C-88 was presented, it is very shocking as it exemplifies this government's logic, its habit of making decisions without prior consultation with the provinces, preferring to do things on the sly, while at the same time having no mandate to do so. We learned from a reliable source that, at the last meeting of the federal and provincial ministers responsible for internal trade in Canada, which was held on April 10, 1995 in Calgary, the federal government never stated its intention and never received from the parties the mandate to do what is being proposed today.

Second point with respect to the context, although the parties agreed that the dispute settlement mechanism, which is often the stumbling block in this type of agreement, should be based on the good faith of the parties and not on judicial procedures, that is what the federal government chose to do, again without consulting anyone. It chose the judicial route through clause 9, to which I will come back in a moment.

Finally, still as regards the context, this bill shows how the federal government sees its role in internal trade and gives itself the power to interfere in interprovincial disputes, although this power is not granted anywhere in the agreement.

I now come to clause 9 which, as I said earlier, is the cornerstone of this bill. I will read it to you because it is worth reading. I can assure you that this clause will soon change the way this country is run. Through clause 9, the federal government gives itself the following powers:

9.(1) For the purpose of suspending benefits or imposing retaliatory measures of equivalent effect against a province pursuant to Article 1710 of the Agreement, the Governor in Council may, by order, do any one or more of the following: a ) suspend rights or privileges granted by the government of Canada to the province under the Agreement or any federal law; b ) modify or suspend the application of any federal law with respect to the province; c ) extend the application of any federal law to the province; and; d ) take any other measure that the Governor in Council considers necessary.

(2) In this section, "federal law" means the whole or any portion of any Act of Parliament or any regulation, order or other instrument issued, made or established in the exercise of a power conferred by or under an Act of Parliament.

Two phrases are worthy of note: "by order" and "pursuant to Article 1710 of the Agreement". I will look at this clause more closely with the emphasis on the words "by order".

Therefore, the governor in council may, "by order", suspend benefits or impose retaliatory measures of equivalent effect against a province. "By order" means that, without consultation, debate, or resolution of the House of Commons, the rights or privileges granted by the Government of Canada to said province at fault may be suspended under the agreement or a federal law.

The governor in council may, "by order", modify or suspend the application of any federal law with respect to the province. The governor in council may, "by order", extend the application of any federal law to the province. And, as if this were not enough, the federal government may, again without any mandate, "by order", take any other measure considered necessary.

This is why Premier Parizeau referred to this as a trade war measure. This is quite a statement, considering it comes from the Premier of Quebec.

There is also the reference "pursuant to Article 1710". Let me read you quickly the provision which, I feel, is the most important one of the 13 paragraphs of Article 1710.

Paragraph 7 reads:

In considering what benefits to suspend, or retaliatory measures to impose, the complaining Party shall: a ) suspend benefits or impose measures in the same sector as the measure found to be in violation of the Agreement; and b ) only if such suspension or imposition would be impracticable or ineffective, suspend benefits or impose retaliatory measures in other sectors covered by the Agreement.

We are referring to Article 1710 which implies that, if there is a problem with manpower mobility, and if it is not possible to impose a similar retaliatory measure against the province at fault, it is implied that retaliatory measures could be taken regarding natural resources, communications or investment, for example. This is what is provided.

It must be pointed out that this whole agreement, and particularly Article 1710, is very vague as regards the role of the federal government. Can the government intervene in a dispute between two provinces, once it is determined which province is at fault? This is not at all clear in the agreement as it is worded.

Given our Canadian history, we know how much the federal government resents any vacuum.

Now, we are faced with a legal vacuum. We know how much the federal government abhors a vacuum. Given the way it has used its spending and residual powers in the past, we can count on the federal government to take full advantage of vague wording in the bill. As a matter of fact, it just took the necessary means to be able to interfere freely to have unruly provinces toe the line.

Reactions have been quite interesting. The Minister of Industry, who is the minister responsible under the act, said that the official opposition's reaction is paranoid and that our remarks are weird. However, Manon Cornellier, who has been following this issue for years, questioned two officials of the internal trade secretariat, Mr. Lecherson and Mr. Knox, hours after the tabling of the bill.

Mr. Lecherson is a senior strategy advisor. When asked about the scope of the bill and its compliance with the intent of the agreement and the scope of the bill, he said: "As a matter of fact, the bill goes further than the agreement itself". Mr. Knox, who is the executive director of the secretariat, said: "In theory, the government could take retaliatory measures deemed appropriate in any sector, but that is very unlikely. They would be basically economic measures".

Now, we are dealing here strictly with economic issues. These remarks suggest that the federal government would even target social programs in order to make an unruly province, Quebec for example, toe the line. That door has been opened, and that is why it seems legitimate to impute motives. Given the lack of openness of this government, we are justified in imputing motives.

There was an official reaction, and I want to quote paragraphs 3 and 4 of a letter Daniel Paillé, the Quebec Minister of Industry, Commerce, Science and Technology, sent to his Canadian counterpart, on May 10, 1995: "The government of Quebec thinks it is unacceptable, pursuant to a Canada-wide agreement where the federal government enters into a partnership with the other parties to an agreement and where the scope of action given to the various partners is well defined by chapter 17 of the agreement, that the federal government found it important to give itself such extended powers as those mentioned in clause 9 of the implementing bill. Therefore, the government of Quebec is opposed to this provision, which gives the federal government very extended powers that go beyond what is needed to implement the retaliatory measures provided for in chapter 17 of the agreement".

I think that is quite clear. We have to imagine what all this would mean in the normal course of events. Although a number of examples were given earlier, we could give some more in order to really show all the significance of the issue being underhandedly addressed here. For example, any province at fault could be denied federal subsidies. If Quebec, for instance, were to be found at fault in some hypothetical situation, Hydro Quebec could be prevented from selling its electricity to another province.

Natural gas shipments to a province at fault could be banned. This is a very serious issue. In terms of work force mobility, it could mean that workers from one province could be prevented from working in another province recognized as the party at fault in a dispute between these two provinces. These are powers the federal government is assuming, because nowhere in the agreement is it mentioned that Ottawa has to introduce such a bill.

This may not have been the government's intention, but if this bill is adopted in its present form, the federal government will be able to take such measures under clause 9, and that is what makes the situation so serious. Finally, we have reservations regarding the origin of clause 9. I was shocked when it was first drawn to my attention.

In fact, clause 9 is essentially identical to section 21 of NAFTA except for certain references to the fact that the latter is an international agreement. What the government did in clause 9 is to replace the word "country" that is found in section 21 by the word "province". As far as I am concerned, there is no better example of a lazy or careless government.

It seems too easy to copy almost word for word such an important document because the problems are different and the relationships that exist between sovereign countries are not similar to the ones that can exist between a central government and its provincial counterparts. I find it rather astounding that the government would take the liberty of just changing the word "country" for the word "province" while taking the opportunity to give itself enormous powers.

Perhaps there are visionaries in the Langevin Block-which is not impossible-who saw that there will soon be a need for an international treaty between the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec and who thought that it would be better to save some time, money and energy and recognize immediately, in a rather subtle way, that Quebec would be party to an international agreement because the day is coming when Quebecers will have to deal officially at the international level with Canada as well as with the United States and other countries. This goes with the Bloc Quebecois's recent suggestion that there must be an economic association, that the closest ties must be maintained and that we must be good neighbours.

In closing, I think that clause 9 must be amended so as to reflect the spirit of the agreement and to limit the federal

government's intervention as an injured party, otherwise Bill C-88 is likely to create problems instead of solving them.

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5:20 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to debate Bill C-88, the implementing legislation for the supposed internal trade agreement within Canada.

Of all of the bills that have come through the House in the past months this one is perhaps of more importance than many others. As my hon. colleague who spoke mentioned, it seems to have slipped through with very little interest on the part of the House and Canadians at large.

In my comments today I would like to spend a few minutes talking about what the trade barriers cost us as individuals. Also I am going to spend a good deal of time talking about the relationship between Quebec and the rest of the country. This is really what it boils down to. When our friends from Quebec talk about a relationship with the rest of the country, post separation, they are really talking about how they would keep all the benefits that we have together in this northern part of North America without shooting each other in the foot.

This has to be of paramount importance to the people of Quebec. They would not be very happy if they found themselves in an independent country, bankrupt and no one to trade with. Nor would the rest of Canadians find themselves in a very happy situation. I want to spend a few moments if I may to record exactly how important this trade is between Canada interprovincially, Canada nationally.

I am indebted for much of what I am going to say to the Fraser Institute and in particular-

Agreement On Internal Trade Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

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5:25 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Liberals opposite go into a state of shock when I mention the Fraser Institute. Also, by good fortune, the Canadian and Quebec Chambers of Commerce have just sent information to all members in the House. I will be quoting from both of those sources during the course of my comments.

A few of the Liberals opposite might recall that when the free trade agreement was implemented they were violently opposed to it. Am I remembering this correctly? Was that just a suspicion?

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Yes, yes.

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5:25 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Yes, it is correct. I hear members opposite saying: "Yes, I can remember we were against the free trade agreement. We were violently against the free trade agreement". One of the reasons members opposite were against the free trade agreement at that time was that they were afraid we were going to get beat up by the Americans because we had fairly inefficient industries across the country.

For the longest time particularly the west suffered and were righteously aggrieved by the fact that the resource producing areas of the country, the west, the north and the east were subsidizing central Canada. We were exporting raw materials to central Canada and buying manufactured goods from central Canada at a sometimes severe tariff.

It cost us a lot of money to be Canadians. A lot of people, particularly in Ontario and Quebec, saw the free trade agreement as a vehicle whereby these barriers were reduced and came down. Canada found itself in a situation where it had to compete.

The free trade agreement was not so terrifying for other regions of the country. I can recall during the great free trade debate-I am sure members in the House can recall-we had high interest rates. Remember that? We had a high dollar. Remember that? We were going to go into a free trade agreement with one of the toughest trading nations in the world and we wonder why we got the stuffing kicked out of us. We had to be brain dead to have these interprovincial trade barriers all across the country, a high dollar, high interest rates and getting into a free trade agreement with the United States.

It was kind of like the Monty Python movie where the knight gets his arm cut off, his other arm cut off, puts his sword in his mouth, gets his legs cut off and says: "Come on, fight like a man". That was Canada after the free trade agreement. We were sitting there with a sword in our mouth saying: "Fight fair. Fight fair". We have a free trade agreement with the United States, but do we have a free trade agreement within Canada? No, we do not.

When the federal government sat down at a table to negotiate a free trade agreement, as we did with Mexico and the United States, we had three players around the table and all of the minions that made the deal work. Can members imagine what it must have been like when we had the federal government and 10 provinces sitting around the table trying to negotiate a free trade agreement?

The provinces varied. British Columbia had demands about an inch thick saying: "This is what we want. This is what we want to protect". The province of Alberta's demands were on one sheet of paper which said: "There should not be any barriers to trade. There should not be any barriers to the movement and the transportation of capital, of ideas and of people.

Ontario which had the most to lose in a free trade agreement in Canada because it controls the bulk of the trade was one of the most accommodating provinces at the debate. It was prepared in the national interest to have its internal trade barriers come down for the common good.

The reason that I am speaking against this legislation is not that it is not a step in the right direction.

The federal government in its role as the leader has the fiduciary responsibility when it comes to dealing with the economic affairs of the nation to take charge and say we need competitive industries in Canada. How can we possibly compete internationally if we are not first competitive at home?

How can we as a nation deal competitively with other nations if we do not first take down all of the barriers in Canada so we have free movement of trade, people, capital and ideas to become as efficient as we can before we start trading elsewhere? That is why it is so important to have all of these internal trade barriers done away with.

I will use as an example some of the daily problems that come up when we have trade barriers or distorting subsidies within the country. We know Quebec has been working very hard at developing export and increasing the export potential of industries based in Quebec. It has been fairly successful. I do not know the exact the numbers but Quebec has had a substantial increase in recent years of exports by Quebec based industries.

Let us say the Quebec government gives company A a subsidy in order to export outside the country but company A is manufacturing a product which is also manufactured in Ontario or British Columbia or Nova Scotia and they do not have subsidy. What happens when they both start to compete for same domestic customer? The company that has the $200,000 government tax funded subsidy wins and the company that does not have a subsidy loses because its costs are higher. That does absolutely nothing to enhance the competitiveness of our industries. All it does is reward industries that are perhaps failing, that are perhaps not as competitive as others at the expense of those businesses that can stand on their own.

That is one of the reasons governments should not be picking winners and losers in the marketplace, creating subsidies so one company in one province has a competitive advantage over another company in another province. All it does is move a job from A to B.

A while ago in the automobile industry a company in Brampton received a huge grant from the federal government to build a plant in Quebec. The people in Quebec would want it. The company would end up manufacturing the same number of cars. It would close the plant in Ontario, open a plant in Quebec, lay off 200 people in Ontario, hire 50 people in Quebec. It would cost the country 150 jobs in one province plus the infrastructure investment to build the plant in the second province.

If we as legislators, as a Parliament, are prepared to throw this money around, can we blame industry for saying it wants a piece of it? If we ourselves in business and we are competing against another business with the advantage of a government grant or subsidy, in order to stay in business we have to get our hands in the trough as well.

That is why we need to break down the barriers to capital. We need to break down the mobility barriers and we absolutely have to stop taking tax money into the government and picking winners and losers in the marketplace.

When we talk about interprovincial trade, historically if we look at what has gone on in Canada, where did the Bank of Nova Scotia start? Rhetorically I ask, did it have its head office in Toronto or Montreal? It was in Halifax. What happened in the trading arrangements or what happened in Canada that all of a sudden somehow the Bank of Nova Scotia's head office moves to Toronto? We have distorted interprovincial trade so that it has protected industries across the country.

The traditional trade at the time the Bank of Nova Scotia was incorporated was not east-west but north-south, just as the trading blocks all across the country traditionally have been. We artificially make them east and west. However, is it focuses all the financial resource and the competitive resource where most of the people are.

The same thing may happen in Canada today. We will continue to have this migration of wealth into the resource. When I say the resource rich I am talking about the vote rich parts of Canada, in downtown Toronto and Montreal, at the expense of the rest of the country unless we have this free mobility and free trade within all provinces.

I will put a few facts on record concerning trade between Quebec and the rest of the country. This is of particular importance because our friends from the Bloc, representing a good number of people in Quebec, are trying to put forth the premise that Quebec would be better off not attached to the rest of the country and the rest of the country would be better off not attached to Quebec.

We would survive. Those of us who live in the west would survive better than others but it would hurt all of us. Most of all, it would hurt the people who live in Quebec. We should not be so naive as to suggest for a moment that a separate Quebec would enjoy all or any of the privileges it enjoys today. It is certainly a long stretch to imagine the rest of the country would tell Quebec to go its way and we will continue to pretend nothing has happened and it is business as usual.

The premier of Quebec and other leaders in Quebec can say whatever they want to but it is important for the people in Quebec to know those leaders do not set the stage or make the

rules for the rest of the country. The rest of the country will bring an entirely and completely different perspective to that table.

I will quote from a pamphlet prepared by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, la Chambre de commerce du Québec, "Interprovincial Trade: Engine of Economic Growth", prepared in May: "This report also points to the fact that these strong, commercial and personal relationships bind us together and reinforce our strength as a trading nation. Strategic and dynamic partnerships are often formed among Canadian companies and entrepreneurs to win in international markets in the new global environment.

"Our message is clear and simple. Together we prosper. Together we are the vehicle for job creation for the next generation in this country, and our interprovincial trading relationships are the engine of that growth. Together we must continue to build on these existing relationships which only enhance our competitive position, internationally improve our ability to create jobs and confirm our status as the best country in the world".

What is this trade to Quebec? The pamphlet further says that while all provinces are dependent on interprovincial trade, Quebec is much more economically dependent on trade with the other provinces than the other provinces are with Quebec. Quebec exported more to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in 1989 than to any country in Europe, including France. It sold as much to Ontario as it did to the United States. The rest of the provinces exported more to Quebec than to the European union and Japan combined.

Four hundred and seventy thousand jobs in Quebec were directly and indirectly attributable to interprovincial exports in 1989. It is not only the Montreal based enterprises that export goods and services to markets in other provinces. Manufacturers in other regions such as Estrie, Mauricie, Bois-Francs and Abitibi-Témiscamingue are also highly dependent on sales to other parts of Canada.

Quebec was the only province other than Ontario that registered a surplus in interprovincial trade, helping to offset partially its trade imbalance, trade deficit with the rest of the world.

Ontario is Quebec's most important trading partner within Canada. Quebec ran a deficit in its trade with Ontario. Quebec's surplus in trade with other provinces came from the more distant provinces, suggesting the importance for Quebec of access to those regions.

This is perhaps the most important part of Bill C-88 and what we are talking about today. It really speaks to the whole nature of our union, what it is all about. We do not all have to speak the same language. It is not even necessary for us to be able to understand each other's first language. It is important for all of us to understand that when we reach into our pocket and pull out a $5 bill or $1 bill or perhaps even a $2 coin and exchange it, we are speaking the same language. Trade has no language. The nature of our country is that if there is commercial discourse in commercial trade and if we keep the lines and avenues and rivers of trade open between all parts of Canada, particularly between Quebec and the rest of the country, everything else is bound to follow.

As a nation we are talking about maintaining trade links with other parts of the world. If we trade with other countries we learn about other countries. We must ensure trade between provinces so that we will learn from each other. It is difficult to have a bad relationship with someone with whom we have a good trading relationship. If we have a commercial relationship which benefits both parties, we will be far more reticent to do or say anything that would imperil that relationship.

I am happy to have had an opportunity to put a few thoughts on record in this debate. I am sorry the government did not use the opportunity to be far more forceful in ensuring the many barriers that still exist are torn down.

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5:40 p.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Lebel Bloc Chambly, QC

Mr. Speaker, I just listened to the Reform member's speech, about which I would simply like to raise a few small points.

He said that if Quebec were to declare its sovereignty, the rest of Canada would most certainly refuse to trade with it and to maintain current business relationships. I can only wonder if they are merely sabre rattling or if there is something more behind this. Can the frustration of western Canada still be so near to the boiling point? I do not know.

But when I imagine an independent or sovereign Quebec, I can only wonder whether you will refuse to sell us the beef we are accustomed to buying from you. After sovereignty, would you refuse to sell us beer made by Ontario breweries? Would you force us to buy our cars from the United States or France? Even the cold war with eastern block countries did not prevent members of the Reform Party, westerners, from selling thousands of tonnes of grain to Russia yearly, despite conflicts in ideology, to say the least.

I would like to ask them on what basis they would decide to cease selling to us-because Quebec attained sovereignty, took full possession of its means and its tools? I think that they would only be shooting themselves in the foot and scoring in their own nets. At any rate, that is my opinion and I would ask him to answer me. Is this anything more than sabre rattling?